Somers Fatal MVA 12-10-04

[Guest DADAY]

Is it true that when there is a Doa all patients are supposed to go to the hospital regardless?

[Guest DFFD227]

I think so, I think they have to try and revive them?

[RES20CUE 40]

Not that I'm aware of. The other driver signed an RMA. If a person refuses medical attention, how do we "make" someone go, unless the PD places them under arrest?

In this case, the other driver was not placed under arrest, he did not exibit any medical complaints, and was out of his vehicle, walking around the scene.

DFFD- No, we don't have to try to revive anyone who is obviously dead.

[Guest WolfEMT]

I don't know too much about NY State protocol, but when I'm at work in NJ, there is a State law that we fall under which prohibits the transportation of dead bodies. If the same accident would have happened in the jurisdiction where I practice, then we would have to wait for Medics to come out and make the pronouncement (NJ EMT-B's cannot make pronouncements), then have the coroner come out and transport the body to the morgue.

From the angle of common sense, if a patient suffered an obvious mortal injury, which is what seemed to have happened in this case, then why would the hospital try to revive the patient?

[Cutty630 37]

Question how dd the accident happen? I think the roads were wet at that time but I can't remember?

[RES20CUE 40]

I believe wet roads were part of the factor, but the accident is still under investigation by the NYSP.

That bend is famous for accidents. We respond there quite often, and have had numerous serious and fatal accidents there over the last 30 or so years!

Also- don't go by the map that News12 used, it was wrong (go figure) the accident occurred approx 3/4 mile East of where News12 was showing. Between Miller Avenue and Lake Road, the big bend, just West of Lake Road- where all the "pretty new guiderails" are that the State just put up, because they are continuously being taken down!! Hey- DOT- stop wasting my tax dollars on new guiderails- spend it on fixing that corner, before someone else dies!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest DADAY]

Not saying the DOA be trans. The other party, its very easy to have someone convinsed they need to go.

[RES20CUE 40]

I'm still not sure, I haven't heard that before. Believe me, he was asked several times and evaluated by a Medic before signing an RMA.

Maybe WAS, als or x635 can chime in on this- is there a NYS Protocol on transporting all pt's when there is a fatality?

[MPACE2-299 0]

Maybe WAS, als or x635 can chime in on this- is there a NYS Protocol on transporting all pt's when there is a fatality?

I belive it is only for pt's who are in the same car as the fatality.

[DOC22 1]

Back in the old days when my father who as some of you know was a doctor in Croton Falls, (he died in August 1977), He responded to a large number of fatalitiesto make the pronouncement for PD then either the ME or funeral parlor took the DOA. Now I believe that the ME will transport after aamedic or doctor makes it. Also is it just me or does there seem to be a lot of teen fatals this time of year? It never ends, does it?

[57crew 1]

The victom attended John Jay High School. RIP Matt

[aves3131 0]

yeah he actually lived a couple of houses down from me. my sister was friends with him and told me about it earlier.

it's a tragic thing, especially this time of year. my thoughts are with the family and friends

[DMA327 12]

Horrible very saddening to hear that around this time of the year. Thoughts and prayers for family and friends...

[x635 4,066]

Is it true that when there is a Doa all patients are supposed to go to the hospital regardless?

I think so, I think they have to try and revive them?

Negative. Except in extreme cases, such as a DOA in a really public place and other special situations, EMS in regards to the WC, DOES NOT transport a subject that was determined to be deceased on scene to the hospital. That removal role falls into the hands of the WC Medical Examiners office, which usually also needs to conduct an investigation of the scene. After the investigation on scene is complete, the deceased is usually transported to the WC Morgue on the Grasslands campus in Valhalla, where an autopsy is to be performed. If there is no need for an autopsy, or the family/MD refuses one, then the body can be transported directly to the funeral home. In certain instances, the body is taken by the ER, where an MD comes out and signs off on the death certificate after viewing the deceased.

As far as DFFD227's comment goes......sometimes, in trauma, the patient is obviously dead/has injuries incompatible with life and there is nothing you can do to revive them, and it is not logical to make such an attempt. Therefore, the patient is pronounced in the field. DFFD227, Please dont forget about EMS again....we're more than just just transportation to the hospital.

If there are partys in the same involved vehicle that were deceased, than that is considered a serious trauma and those patients should be transported o the appropriate facility. The protocol does not say everybody involved must be transport....because mechanism, if one subject is driving a tractor trailer, and the other is driving a small coupe, one is not going to be as affected as the other. So the protocoll basically is written based on mechanism, if the mechanism was enough to kill one person in the car, then what did the forces of the impact do to the other people in the vehicle. A lot the decision made by EMS personel in regards to the above is based on anatomy and physiology, mechanism, training on trauma, and most importantly, good and sound clinical judgement.

I hope I made some sense in the above, as I'm just getting off a close to 20 hour shift. I'm sure WAS and ALS will have something to add as well. Sorry to be so graphic, but it seems there is a lot of misunderstandings about what I explained above.

With that said, this incident really was a horrible, horrible tragedy. Hope this incident is absorbed by the younger drivers.

[WAS967 97]

I think what everyone is aiming at is the whole mechanism of injury concept. Part of the mechanism of injury protocol in trauma is that anyone in the same vehicle as a fatality should be transported ALS to the nearest trauma center. Of course common sense should always prevail. In this case with the opposing vehicle being of much greater mass (a pickup truck) you have tio realize that more the energy will be transmitted into the smaller vehicle. But I'm too sick with flu right now to start spouting physics equations.