Training With A K12 Saw: What Is Wrong With This Picutre?

[Ex-2114 7]

I'm putting my 2 cents in.

I don't care who you are, how experienced you are, or what rank you hold. If you're going to have training PPE is a MUST. Our service is dangerous in training as it is in real life. Always wear your PPE. I don't care if you think you're invicible against a shower of sparks without your PPE. I know I'm personally not going to start a saw (although I have not....yet) unless everyone around in the vicinity is properly protected with bunker gear.

I believe ALSFirefighter once had in his signature "Train like you fight; Fight like you train." That should speak for itself.

Mike

I fully agree that PPE is required for firefighters to operate or train with any equipment that has a direct potential to cause harm.

Rather than beat a dead horse, why not ask the question that would put this debate/argument to bed:

What are OSHA/NFPA/PESH rules and regulations for the operation of a gasolene powered cutoff saw by firefighters in both a training environment as well as in a fire/rescue environment???

It is my understanding that cut-resistant gloves, goggles, face shields, and hearing protection are the only requirement, but I am now wondering what the official rules are for the fire service.

[Ex-2114 7]

Young man, I don't know you, but based on all the times you have "put your 2 cents in", and what you have had to say, I predict that, unless you change your attitude, you will have a very difficult and unhappy career if you are ever hired as a career Firefighter anywhere...that's just my two cents...

Chief-

With all due respect, I think that you are out of line.

Future Fireman (Mike) is speaking based on his training. What we have all be told to do at some point in our fire fighting careers. Many of us remember our training and try to follow it to a T whilst others, because of their frequency of performing a task, become over comfortable and very complacent.

If training says that you are supposed to be fully outfitted in PPE, and department policy and procedure states that you are to be fully outfitted in PPE, then who has an attitude issue when they choose not to follow policy and procedure??

Regarding the photo -- the man is a well respected fire fighter and trainer. I'm sure that FDNY SOP/SOG states that when operating any cutoff saw, you are required to be in full PPE. Perhaps it even says that a handline be stretched and the operator be wearing SCBA. I don't know. Maybe someone with access to the FDNY SOP/SOG information can look this up and post it.

[JFLYNN 681]

Chief-

With all due respect, I think that you are out of line.

Future Fireman (Mike) is speaking based on his training. What we have all be told to do at some point in our fire fighting careers. Many of us remember our training and try to follow it to a T whilst others, because of their frequency of performing a task, become over comfortable and very complacent.

If training says that you are supposed to be fully outfitted in PPE, and department policy and procedure states that you are to be fully outfitted in PPE, then who has an attitude issue when they choose not to follow policy and procedure??

Regarding the photo -- the man is a well respected fire fighter and trainer. I'm sure that FDNY SOP/SOG states that when operating any cutoff saw, you are required to be in full PPE. Perhaps it even says that a handline be stretched and the operator be wearing SCBA. I don't know. Maybe someone with access to the FDNY SOP/SOG information can look this up and post it.

Are you sure you're sure???? Full PPE, SCBA, and a handline stretched every time a cutoff saw is operated?

You guys need to get a grip...you are going on and on about a picture which represents one moment in time...none of you really know what is going on in that picture...you're stumbling all over yourselves trying to show your own "knowledge"...maybe he should have had on gloves and better eye protection but I would tend to give the man the benefit of the doubt if he is who people on here seem to think he is...for that matter I would give him the benefit of the doubt no matter who he is...it's just a picture and doesn't tell the whole story...some of you admittedly have NEVER even started a cutoff saw and you are criticizing someone who has probably operated such a saw thousands of times...BTW, these saws are started and run daily by thousands in most career departments throughout the country by a member who normally is wearing only station wear and injuries or mishaps are almost unheard of...I do agree that it is common sense to wear eye protection and some sort of glove, and maybe earing protection for prolonged operations but come on people let's get our priorities in order...

How many of you on here posting on this subject are out of shape? Do you exercise regularly and watch what you eat?? What are the stats on heart attacks for Firefighters as a percentage of LODs and serious injuries?????

And I don't care if the guy in the pic was licking a running saw blade, some 17 year old kid should know better than to post a critical remark in a public forum about an an exprienced, respected member of a major Fire Department...it's called respect and knowing your place...

[Ex-2114 7]

Are you sure you're sure???? Full PPE, SCBA, and a handline stretched every time a cutoff saw is operated?

Which is why I said "I don't know" and then asked for anyone with access to the FDNY SOP/SOG docs to post their procedures/guidelines.

As for the photo being a "moment in time".... that is what we have to work with here. Possibly he was just guiding the saw to its proper location..... maybe the blade exploded the second after the photo was taken and he was slightly injured.... nobody knows. All we can do is hope that nothing bad happened.

Now... about the "some 17 year old kid should know better than to post a critical remark in a public forum about an an exprienced......" statement. The purpose of these forums is to critique and to learn from the critique. His remark is in no way different that someone (possibly yourself) making a comment about how bad or dumb the President of the US may be for a comment or decision that he made -- I'm certain that he is an experienced and respected member of the world powers. That is respect and knowing your place.

Chief -- I don't know you, but I respect you as a Chief.... you have worked for many years in the fire service and are likely a font of valuable knowledge. I'm sure that in your early years, you made comments or did things that you may or may not have regretted based on your "moment in time" knowledge.

Jeff.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Amen to JFlynn, So many guys are critical of things on this site yet they have nothing to back it up. I have a question. How many of the members that have posted on this thread have actually operated the saw at a working fire. How many of you have cut a gate or a lock when the pressure was on. I have worked with Captain Morris in the firehouse where he provided me with the best training I have ever recieved, & never once was safety an issue. You can site all the regulations and standards you want but lets be realistic this is an inherently dangerous job. It guys like Captain Morris that have dedicated the majority of his life to make firefighters safer through realistic training. Yet another example of people nit picking a snapshot, perhaps you should enroll in his next class maybe then you could see the big picture.

Paul DeBartolomeo L-28

[Guest]

The 17 year old kid in this case has stated he has never even started a saw.

Not making it personal here, but I am reminded of a line from a Jimmy Buffett song:

" Don't try to describe a KISS concert if you have never seen one, you just might end up being wrong"

[Guest]

Amen to JFlynn, So many guys are critical of things on this site yet they have nothing to back it up. I have a question. How many of the members that have posted on this thread have actually operated the saw at a working fire. How many of you have cut a gate or a lock when the pressure was on. I have worked with Captain Morris in the firehouse where he provided me with the best training I have ever recieved, & never once was safety an issue. You can site all the regulations and standards you want but lets be realistic this is an inherently dangerous job. It guys like Captain Morris that have dedicated the majority of his life to make firefighters safer through realistic training. Yet another example of people nit picking a snapshot, perhaps you should enroll in his next class maybe then you could see the big picture.

Paul DeBartolomeo L-28

And a hearty AMEN to brother Debart on this one.

Some people need to

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and get a grip.

A single picture can say many things...and it is a moment in time that no matter what type of picture it is...from p***, to still type art, to the fire service...to the cover of life magazine that can invoke feelings, ideas, opinions (and yes believe it or not your still allowed to have them in the fire service), emotions and comments. Which is what this picture as posted did.

I have had the priviledge of meeting Captain Morris, hear him lecture and have conversation with him on at a personal level. He is an outstanding, knowledgeable leader and to be honest, I was even surprised to see him in the picture in that manner. Am I goint to crusify him for not having any safety equipment on...no, I wish he did, I'm surprised he didn't and for all I know he had to jump in to correct something he saw. Maybe it was a round robin class going for hours and he took his gear off for a break and didn't think to put it back on...who knows.

Now on the flip side...take the name out of it...just a face, a person apparantly instructing someone on the use of a saw. Anyone on here and several of you I respect immensly on your fire service achievements, knowledge and as persons. You want to tell me you wouldn't shake your head a little? Or think maybe a little more protection is warranted. I know at a minimum most departments including some of your own would have guys in at least bunkers, gloves and eye protection. I can only imagine some of the other comments I would hear over a beer sitting with you, if we were with a person doing that in person. So in some ways I applaud those who vocalize what they see. There is nothing wrong with that. To some of us its Captain Morris. To others its a nameless person. I guess in some ways there are several posters on here that are both sides of the argument that arose that need to QTIP.

I have no issue with anyone that discusses something and to be honest future I thought your point rang true, even in its slightly attitudinal twang I read it as. I don't play that know your place BS. I've been in a true military structure where things were expressed as they happened amongst the ranks and the punishments were a little harsher if the upper brass found out. Like it or not soceity has changed by generation as we discussed in another thread and that is an example of how it is.

[firemoose827 324]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and get a grip.

A single picture can say many things...and it is a moment in time that no matter what type of picture it is...from p***, to still type art, to the fire service...to the cover of life magazine that can invoke feelings, ideas, opinions (and yes believe it or not your still allowed to have them in the fire service), emotions and comments. Which is what this picture as posted did.

I have had the priviledge of meeting Captain Morris, hear him lecture and have conversation with him on at a personal level. He is an outstanding, knowledgeable leader and to be honest, I was even surprised to see him in the picture in that manner. Am I goint to crusify him for not having any safety equipment on...no, I wish he did, I'm surprised he didn't and for all I know he had to jump in to correct something he saw. Maybe it was a round robin class going for hours and he took his gear off for a break and didn't think to put it back on...who knows.

Now on the flip side...take the name out of it...just a face, a person apparantly instructing someone on the use of a saw. Anyone on here and several of you I respect immensly on your fire service achievements, knowledge and as persons. You want to tell me you wouldn't shake your head a little? Or think maybe a little more protection is warranted. I know at a minimum most departments including some of your own would have guys in at least bunkers, gloves and eye protection. I can only imagine some of the other comments I would hear over a beer sitting with you, if we were with a person doing that in person. So in some ways I applaud those who vocalize what they see. There is nothing wrong with that. To some of us its Captain Morris. To others its a nameless person. I guess in some ways there are several posters on here that are both sides of the argument that arose that need to QTIP.

I have no issue with anyone that discusses something and to be honest future I thought your point rang true, even in its slightly attitudinal twang I read it as. I don't play that know your place BS. I've been in a true military structure where things were expressed as they happened amongst the ranks and the punishments were a little harsher if the upper brass found out. Like it or not soceity has changed by generation as we discussed in another thread and that is an example of how it is.

I honestly wish I could shake your hand brother. Again, you manage to take an argument and prove a very valuable point to all, and I love the way you did it. I wish all posters on this site were like you, and thats why you deserved the award you just got. Thanks for always making a point with tact and respect, never stepping on anyones toes or throwing pointless jabs at people that are just not called for. I respect you.

To add to this, I just spent 20 minutes searching for a video I saw on operating a cut off saw, and I could not find it, but maybe someone out there knows of it. It was at a training center some where and the guy operating the cut off saw had been set on fire from the sparks thrown by the saw. Granted, he had some gasoline spilled on his bunkers from filling the saw and didnt wash it off, but how many of us crawl through a house and dont know what we are crawling through? How many flammable liquids are soaked into your turnouts without knowing that a simple washing wont get rid of? But still, the turnouts saved him from getting burned. While operating a saw how do we know we are not standing in a vapor cloud or gas pocket from a ruptured gas line in the building? Or someone soaked the floor with gasoline to purposely hurt the firefighter forcing the door with a saw? Anything can happen, which is why we are all forced to wear our gear.

[dc2t 80]

My original post of the picture was not to put a name to the face, it was to point out that this was unsafe . There were a few more pictures on Firehouse showing the same. The pictures have been removed from the web site. I am amazed that Firehouse did not edit the slide show before posting.

But now lets not kill a dead horse.

[firemoose827 324]

I found the video I mentioned, here it is...

Just a reminder that shhhhtuff happens. Stay Safe.

[ny10570 745]

That video was the result of an improperly secured fuel cap. Check your equipment.

You're right Capt, the construction industry's safety record blows. More important is why is it so bad. Is it because the standards suck or is it because no one follows the standards?

I completely agree that the ff's training should be wearing their PPE, because that is how you'll have to use it on the fire scene. Its not about following the same SOG's in training as you do on the fire ground. Its about creating an environment that closely mimics the fire ground. So you don't need the SCBA and charged line. But you do need to experience the cumbersome gloves and bulky PPE that you will be using on the fire scene.

[Oswegowind 17]

Okay, there has been some pretty heavy discussion about the photo and all that comes along with it.

Now, what I see from an outsider's perspective is that the "trainees" are dressed properly for the training because if it were an actual call, that is what they would be wearing. So, the word "buff" can be dismissed.

As for the "trainer", at least some eye protection, other than that there is nothing wrong with anything else!