Going downward a rope

[Guest Feuerdolly]

Hello,

i read about the accident where the firemen were killed. After reading the news, i have a question:

If you have to go throug the window as last exit, i think you will use a rope. How do you go downwards the rope?

Here in Germany, we have a 10mm rope that we put into our Belt, there is a hook where we put the rope in and then we are ready to descend.

How is your way to handle it?

I don´t mean the regular descending in high rise missions, i mean the descending in the worst case (way back is blocked)

Thanks for your answers,

Michael

[WAS967 97]

It sounds like the problem was actually not being blocked but was a fast moving fire or a flashover/backdraft situation where there was no time to carabiner a rope and repel down the 3-4 stories.

[Truck4 48]

It's being said that one firefighter got a line out and made it 15 feet down before he lost grip and fell.

[WAS967 97]

WNBC is reporting that FDNY gave up on carrying personal escape ropes a few years ago because they were bulky and cumbersom to use. They also state that a rope was in place but there was not enough time to use it.

[mstrang1 213]

WAS- My understanding is that they also gave up the ropes for monetary reasons, as the city would not pay to replace and/or maintain them.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

In regard to your question Feuer, in NY State (I cannot speak for NYC) we teach utilizing a rope for upper floor window bail out utilizing 3/8" rope and I believe 8mm or larger. It has been a while since I've dealt with any student whom didn't have 3/8 or even 1/2" which is very bulky. We do not utilize a caribiner other then if you have it to attach to a tool to use as an anchor point or to rap the rope around the object and hook the biner onto the rope. There is no belt involved, the rope comes out of your pocket, whether its coat or bunker is user option or what system your coat has for holding survival rope, and it goes around your back, you then grip a section of rope in each hand. Your body friction acts a descend device as the rope goes through your hands is your brake. This is an emergency procedure for rapid evacuation which probably would have been warrented here. Lets keep in mind that stress is also a factor and who knows how much anyone will revert to their training unless they do it often.

[CFD320 35]

I carry 25' of 8mm rope, 2 aluminum snap lock carabineers, and 15' of tubular webbing. Used for multiple purposes including bailout, and extending coverage off of a main search line etc. The whole package is very light and not bulky. Fits in the front right pocket of my turnout coat and weighs maybe a pound. I also have a gemtor harness buy rarely wear it.

As for the incident in the Bronx, I was told by an FDNY firefighter 1 guy had enough time to come out on a rope, but his anchor point (some sort of cable or wire) gave way 10 feet below the window. I was lead to believe that all the R3 guys carry bailout ropes and wear gemtor harness'.

[MPACE2-299 0]

One of my friends from the FDNY said that they took back all the bail out ropes from the fire fighters. Also that on the newer gear there are no bunker pockers on the pants where alot of them kept their rope. A article on firehouse.com says somthing liek that below.

JIM DWYER

From The New York Times on the Web © The New York Times Company. Reprinted with Permission

With word that a rescuer had swung from the roof on a rope harness in hope of rescuing the stranded firefighters, Commissioner Scoppetta announced yesterday that the Fire Department would review the "feasibility of providing strong, lightweight ropes to every firefighter." Ropes had been part of the standard gear for firefighters for decades, but they have been a source of contention. In 1980, two firefighters fell to their deaths using a newly developed rope, which, an investigation found, had been put into service despite warnings that it might not support the two firefighters and their gear.

In 2000, the city withdrew an improved version of the personal escape rope and limited the distribution of harnesses that had been carried by firefighters for lowering themselves to safety, citing their weight, bulkiness and maintenance issues. The use of the remaining harnesses fell, firefighters said, because they had to be re-adjusted for size when the gear was passed along to other firefighters at the change of shifts. The firefighters' union filed a contract grievance but lost, according to Michael Axelrod, a lawyer who handled the matter for the union.

[MPACE2-299 0]

Just found this on morning prides website

http://www.morningpride.com/products/cloth...ing.asp?p=4&i=8

Photos above illustrate a rope pocket designed to accomodate an FDNY rope system. Pockets can be (and should be) easily adapted for alternative rope systems (at no additional charge). Consult the Total Fire Group offices for details.
Any one know if the fdny is using this?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

For whatever reasons, a good friend of mine on the job in the city told me that they do not get survival skills in their academy. What sense that makes I don't know, especially when one of their own developed the program used pretty much nationwide. Only the SOC personnel received survival, but many guys still carry their own ropes they own and no surprise many of them got the survival by being instructors for the state or previous or current volunteer status.

I wear a gemtor but still use the rope bail out as trained on wrapping it around my body as in the survival program. Yes you can use the hook like a biner and just rappel down that way but it takes detailed skill and time to wrap it. The body method isn't rappeling true to form, its an emergency escape procedure and only requires a wrap around your body as the decent device and less chance of tangles then with the gemtor hook.

I have the morning pride system in my coat, I used it several times in training and didn't like it. I keep the rope in my regular pocket in my jacket being that is the way I trained the most with it and it deploys easier and with less hang ups. If you do get the system through morning pride, do not lay out the rope in the system or it will get hung up, you have to pack it like a rope bag to deploy easier. Ensure you have no knots or they will get hung up as well. If you get it, get out and train with it or you will not be ready for how it reacts differently then when its just in your pocket.

[MPACE2-299 0]

ALS, Have you ever deployed your bailout rope from a leg pocket? In firefighter survival classes I have seen many problems with the rope in a coat pocket. One being the lower strap from the pack keeps the rope from coming out. Our departments standard practice is to keep it in our bunker pocket. Of all the times i have seen the decend preformed, that seems to be the most efficent. But like you said the way your train is always your best way.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I have done it from just about every pocket I've had in my gear. I still like it in my coat being that between training and teaching survival I deploy it out of that pocket at least 4-6 times a year. My pocket falls under the waist strap and when holding the rope out in front it pulls the rope farther away from the strap.

[Guest]

From the NYTimes:

January 27, 2005

As 4 Jumped, 2 Firefighters Survived by a Bit of Rope

By MICHELLE O'DONNELL and JANON FISHER  

The fireball burst through the floorboards on Sunday, consuming the room in flames and trapping two firefighters from Rescue Company 3 by the single window overlooking the icy pavement five stories below.

Four other firefighters had already jumped to the ground from a room next door; two would die. The last two men on the floor were alone in the flames.

"I got a rope, but I got nothing to tie it to," Firefighter Jeffrey Cool said to his partner, Joseph DiBernardo, whose father recounted the story of their escape yesterday.

'"Throw it to me and I'll support you,"' Firefighter DiBernardo replied.

Firefighter Cool tossed the rope, and Firefighter DiBernardo tied it to the window's child safety bars and lowered him from the window, fire officials said.

Suddenly, the rope became taut and snapped, sending Firefighter Cool falling to the ground, said Joseph DiBernardo Sr., a retired deputy fire chief.

But Firefighter DiBernardo was still able to use the remaining piece of rope for his own escape, lowering himself until, when he was about 10 feet from the ground, the bars ripped from the window frame and he fell.  

"They saved each other's lives," said his father, who gave the dramatic replay for reporters outside Weill Cornell Medical Center, where his son was being treated.

The six firefighters were forced to jump from windows after water pressure was suddenly lost and the fire blazed out of control.  

Two firefighters, Lt. Curtis W. Meyran, 46, of Battalion 26, and Firefighter John G. Bellew, 37, of Ladder Company 27, were killed in the fall. Four others, including Firefighters Cool and DiBernardo, suffered serious injuries.

Officials have opened several inquiries into the fire, as well as into a Brooklyn fire on the same day that claimed the life of Firefighter Richard T. Sclafani.  

They hope to find out who built an illegal partition wall that limited access to the fire escape, and to determine what caused the sudden loss of water pressure in the hose line on the third floor. The loss caused firefighters on the fourth floor to carry their hose line downstairs to the source of the fire. That left firefighters on the fourth floor without the protection of water when flames burst in.

Officials said yesterday that they could not yet confirm Mr. DiBernardo's account, as their investigation was still under way.  

"What we've come up with so far is that it either broke midway, or when he came down midway he might have lost his grip,"  

Chief Joseph Callan, the Bronx borough commander, said of the rope used by Firefighter Cool.  

A fire official said yesterday that the firefighters had no time to notice a radiator in the room near the window, which could have offered a more solid anchor for the descent by rope.

The men's narrow escape shows how crucial a simple length of rope can be to firefighters.  

In 2000, the Fire Department stopped issuing individual ropes, although it continued to issue one two-person rope to companies that perform search-and-rescue operations. That year, the department also scaled back the number of harnesses it issued to firefighters.  

Many firefighters complained about constantly having to readjust a shared harness at the start of each shift, and eventually stopped using them.

On Monday, Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta said that the department would begin exploring the feasibility of issuing a personal rope to each firefighter.  

Firefighter Cool was carrying his own rope, Chief Callan said.

Last night, on Staten Island, firefighters lined up in the freezing cold outside the Colonial Funeral Home to pay their respects to Firefighter Sclafani, on the eve of three straight days of funerals for their fallen colleagues.  

"He could have been any one of us," Firefighter Kevin Atkinson of Engine Company 16 in Manhattan said.

[E64PCFD2044 1]

is it that hard to give them a harness and/or rope...if Bloomburg can work for $1 a year, i'm sure he can spend a few on some equipment

[MPACE2-299 0]

Does any one know how the harnesses are issued in the FDNY , i heard they are no longer given as personal's, but as a set to rotated on the tours.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Should everyone have it, absolutely. Some companies would throw equipment their way just to say they use it.

Outfitting that department with anything I'm sure is a logistical challenge no matter what. To outfit 1,000 FF's which I don't know what their personnel numbers are currently at would be:

Just for rope and a carabiner roughly: $30/firefighter

Gemtor and rope: $80/firefighter

They could find the money but keep in mind that politicians always hate seeing big $$$ line items. Get them the stuff to offer the best chances of their survival.

[Pudge3311 5]

It would be a big one time cost, to outfit everyone. and in these days of big budget problems, how bout looking into having it donated? Sure no fire departments wants other peoples names on their rigs, but if the city wont accept donations, how bout some corporate sponsorships for a year or two, get some quick money, and make sure the guys who risk their lives every day have the equipment they need to stay as safe as they can.

[E64PCFD2044 1]

they've gotten some rigs donated since 9/11...the money they alotted for apparatus that wasn't spent should go for this type of equipment.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Pudge, I'm with you. As I've stated in other posts, until we grow as an agency and think outside the box in regard to getting additional funding we will not keep up for our own personnel. Donations are a tough thing, a lot of baggage when people start handing things out especially in the city and there may be laws about that. Last thing you want is a less then desirable company giving something out, or some with organized crime connections.

As far as the other option you posted. Houston FD'd Chief toyed with the idea of having space on apparatus for advertisements and their politicians, and most of their personnel went nuts. That was the general consensus nationwide on many national forums that many thought it was wrong. Not this firefighter. Do what you must for staffing and equipment. They started naming college bowl games after the highest bidder, football fields etc. I'll ride in FedEx Engine or the XYZ contracting ladder. Is it any different when developers buy things in regard to need for what they want to do?

[x635 4,066]

$90 per firefighter to issue them a bag of rope.

IMO, that $$ is nothing to NYC and they can afford it, especially for (what is becoming) standard safety equipment. Would you consider corporate sponsorship for Latex gloves or bullets in a cops gun?????

Corporate sponsorship for this type of item in NYC is absolutely ridiculous. If they really cant afford $90 a firefighter, then float a bond, like for all the other frivolous crap they spend money on. Firefighters should reflect a city figure, represent a certain image, and nobility, certain things SHOULD NOT be for sale. I understand that it would be nice to have money to buy this type of equipment, but the money is there. If it's not, or they claim it's not, then Bloomberg needs to go, because there is gross fiscal mismanaagment. The money is there, the city will fund it, and FDNY will be issuing this equipment in 2005, imo. If not, the union should step in.

Also, naming of stadiums and games is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ballgame then fire and ems...excuse the pun, lol.

WHAT THE HECK DO PEOPLE PAY TAXES FOR ANYMORE?

[JBE 328]

They'll get them. The fireifghters won't pay a dime for them. One thing I have noticed, is that this department is reactionary, especially after a tragedy that could have been prevented.

Example, 1994, 3 members killed in Flashover in Manhattan. Within 6 months, bunker gear.

Fast forward 11 plus years, 2 members dead, 4 in bad shape, because they didn't have bail out ropes that may or may not have saved them. I give it a year before you see everyone fully equipped with the ropes. Just my 5 cents.

[Guest]

what do you expect. scopetta has never even been a fireman

[doug_e 0]

$90 a rope???!? That's a rip off! Frankly I'm surprised that the FDNY doesn't carry them, especially truck companies.

That's roughly $1.2 million to outfit the department. In reality it should be less than half that amount for 35' of proper rope and a steel caribiner.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Who said $90 a rope?

The Gemtor and a rope would be close to $80/firefighter at retail. We all know that the amount NYC would need for the FD would lower that number and again the "FDNY uses our equipment" label would bring it down farther as well. Gemtor or not gemtor, all you need is a rope and a pocket to put it in. Which is another arguement that they stopped putting the side pockets on bunker pants to save some $$ as well.

Second, from what I understand from conversations with friends and coworkers I teach with, someone on a truck crew gets assigned to carry a rope bag. Problem is if you not with him, you won't be able to utilize it.

Keep in mind also that they are not taught the survival skills in their academy, so not only do they need to be issued the ropes but have to be trained (properly) on the technique. Not that big of a deal, but it does come down to logisitics.

[doug_e 0]

On the pervious page someone wrote that the ropes would cost $90. Seems to me that I would have taken care of that on my own if I were in their position. Actually I have carried a rope since the 80's.

[tbendick 27]

You will see lot's of new things comming soon as far as ropes and bailouts.

Some new things I have seen so far.

Use of 1" webbing for bailout. All FDNY member should have this by now. 20' in a loop. It was giving out to assist in UNC FF removal.

Use of SCBA as anchor point. Didn't see how it was done, but some tests done at the ROCK they had 4 people hanging from a rope tide to a SCBA.

You may not see a harness come back, they having been testing ways to bailout without a harness.

There is a lot going on so I am sure you will see more on this in the future.

[doug_e 0]

I saw that webbing at the Nassau Cty. Fire show a couple of weeks ago.

Unfortunately it takes a tragedy to move things forward in a positive way. Human nature, I guess.

[Guest]

I cary 20' of webbing in my pants along with a large Steel carabeener. I've been carrying that as long as I can remeber

[Guest rreimund]

Obviously the webbing is going to be lighter and resumably less bulky than an equivalent length of rope, but I wonder what the weight bearing characteristics are, as well as the friction characteriistics. I would think it would be easier to have two pieces of rope in your gloved hand and control your descent pretty well. Actually, I know.. I've done it in training numerous times. But I wonder if 1" webbing would be too thin and/or too slippery to really control your descent with gloved hands. When I received my training initially, there was talk that a thinner rope could have the same issue, it wouldn't allow you to really get a good clamping force on the ropes and be able to slow down your descent.

Anyone who's trained with the webbing? Have you had to change your tactics at all versus rope?

[dmccabe 1]

The only good thing to do with the webbing in my opinion is to make yourself a harness, but you need a pretty long piece. I think the webbing because it is flat, you would not be able to stop yourself while sliding on it. When you need to bail out of a situation in a hurry, you are not going to have time to do all of these different things. I think a good piece of rope and a good solid anchor point, whether it be a radiator, a couch or even your scba harness, is your best bet. That is just my opinion.