"Too much safety makes Johnny a poor leader..."

[Remember585 815]

This is a great topic and good discussion has followed.

The guys in my firehouse probably talk about this in some form at least once every week. The biggest issue we talk about, and everyone out there in EMTBravoland knows, is there's a severe lack of experience. Most of us are running more calls every year, but the fire work isn't increasing. We rely heavily on training, and sometimes that training comes up a little short or reality.

I consider myself a "50/50" firefighter, meaning half of what I know is from sitting in class or being nose deep in a book trying to absorb as much as I can. The other half of me wants to throw on the gear, take the most challenging training there is and be at as many incidents as possible to have them under my belt. I'm a hands-on guy playing the role of Chief now, and it gives me a different perspective. My gut instincts have never steered me in the wrong direction, but I think that can be attributed to the knowledge in books and classes that has stayed in my blood. I anticipate the worst-case scenario every call from the time my pager goes off until I get home. My guys and girls are my #1 responsibility and I know this. I won't ever ask someone to do something I wouldn't do. Any leader that would allow someone to do something they wouldn't do themselves should resign before someone gets hurt or killed, because that Leader is lacking the knowledge, experience, skills and balls (yeah, I said it) to correctly and effectively direct his personnel. The only thing worse is the Chief or Officer that never EVER gives an order. I know a lot of people like these Chiefs because they "don't stir the pot" and "let them do whatever they want." THAT IS NOT A GOOD LEADER.

When I started taking classes and becoming a firefighter (in 1994) most of my training, well, it sucked. Instructors probably had good intentions but there was very little hands-on training and most instructors were kind of shy to let us get dirty and do the rough stuff. As time went on, I noticed a cultural change where most Instructors and training programs were basically teaching us all not to take chances, not to be daring and to play it safe - too safe. A lot of those that came up with me are starting to now realize this, because training has done a 180 and we're seeing more instruction pushing us to be better firefighters and better teammates. What could be learned by connecting hose to a gate on a hydrant and shooting the stream at a cone pretending it was a house on fire?! What kind of tactics and know-how were we getting putting out "car fires" that were nothing more then shopping carts with a flare in them?! Thank God Westchester County has the fire training center it has now. For newer people the controlled fires are a great way to get a basic feel of how things could be and for those that have been around a little longer, we can share our experiences and mold great firefighters. Don't get me wrong, we need to be safe and be smart - but taking a little risk once in a while will help you learn from your mistakes! It's like training a puppy with an electric fence. They get zapped a couple times and know not to do it again. I've learned the importance of my hood, my helmet, my gloves, having a radio, building layout, taking a tool, checking my line before going in and so, so, so much more by taking calculated risks and training my a** off.

To all of you fairly new to this stuff - LISTEN TO THE ADVICE OF YOUR BEST PEOPLE - REGARDLESS OF THEIR RANKS! Some of the best guys, especially in vollyland where I come from, were even smart enough to avoid being an Officer. The truth of it all is that a great firefighter has the careful balance of training and experience and that's what keeps them safe and alive. If you can learn from these guys, you will learn so much and over time, you'll come to realize how great it is to be a firefighter. The best instructors will allow you to take a couple of little chances under their direction so you learn your boundaries. The same goes for an officer. If you have one that doesn't let you do anything, it's probably because they're not experienced and trained enough to know what little risks you can take. A good officer will let you feel some heat before opening a line, and will trust you enough to take the knob and back you up or stay beside you. Those are the best teachers, and the best teachers make the best leaders.

That's my silly opinion anyway.

[Mark Z 18]

This is a great topic and good discussion has followed.

The guys in my firehouse probably talk about this in some form at least once every week. The biggest issue we talk about, and everyone out there in EMTBravoland knows, is there's a severe lack of experience. Most of us are running more calls every year, but the fire work isn't increasing. We rely heavily on training, and sometimes that training comes up a little short or reality.

I consider myself a "50/50" firefighter, meaning half of what I know is from sitting in class or being nose deep in a book trying to absorb as much as I can. The other half of me wants to throw on the gear, take the most challenging training there is and be at as many incidents as possible to have them under my belt. I'm a hands-on guy playing the role of Chief now, and it gives me a different perspective. My gut instincts have never steered me in the wrong direction, but I think that can be attributed to the knowledge in books and classes that has stayed in my blood. I anticipate the worst-case scenario every call from the time my pager goes off until I get home. My guys and girls are my #1 responsibility and I know this. I won't ever ask someone to do something I wouldn't do. Any leader that would allow someone to do something they wouldn't do themselves should resign before someone gets hurt or killed, because that Leader is lacking the knowledge, experience, skills and balls (yeah, I said it) to correctly and effectively direct his personnel. The only thing worse is the Chief or Officer that never EVER gives an order. I know a lot of people like these Chiefs because they "don't stir the pot" and "let them do whatever they want." THAT IS NOT A GOOD LEADER.

When I started taking classes and becoming a firefighter (in 1994) most of my training, well, it sucked. Instructors probably had good intentions but there was very little hands-on training and most instructors were kind of shy to let us get dirty and do the rough stuff. As time went on, I noticed a cultural change where most Instructors and training programs were basically teaching us all not to take chances, not to be daring and to play it safe - too safe. A lot of those that came up with me are starting to now realize this, because training has done a 180 and we're seeing more instruction pushing us to be better firefighters and better teammates. What could be learned by connecting hose to a gate on a hydrant and shooting the stream at a cone pretending it was a house on fire?! What kind of tactics and know-how were we getting putting out "car fires" that were nothing more then shopping carts with a flare in them?! Thank God Westchester County has the fire training center it has now. For newer people the controlled fires are a great way to get a basic feel of how things could be and for those that have been around a little longer, we can share our experiences and mold great firefighters. Don't get me wrong, we need to be safe and be smart - but taking a little risk once in a while will help you learn from your mistakes! It's like training a puppy with an electric fence. They get zapped a couple times and know not to do it again. I've learned the importance of my hood, my helmet, my gloves, having a radio, building layout, taking a tool, checking my line before going in and so, so, so much more by taking calculated risks and training my a** off.

To all of you fairly new to this stuff - LISTEN TO THE ADVICE OF YOUR BEST PEOPLE - REGARDLESS OF THEIR RANKS! Some of the best guys, especially in vollyland where I come from, were even smart enough to avoid being an Officer. The truth of it all is that a great firefighter has the careful balance of training and experience and that's what keeps them safe and alive. If you can learn from these guys, you will learn so much and over time, you'll come to realize how great it is to be a firefighter. The best instructors will allow you to take a couple of little chances under their direction so you learn your boundaries. The same goes for an officer. If you have one that doesn't let you do anything, it's probably because they're not experienced and trained enough to know what little risks you can take. A good officer will let you feel some heat before opening a line, and will trust you enough to take the knob and back you up or stay beside you. Those are the best teachers, and the best teachers make the best leaders.

That's my silly opinion anyway.

WOW!

Well Said, I wish there were more people that thought the way you did.

[FFPCogs 863]

All the responses thus far have been stellar in my book, and I must say I'm happy to see that everyone here still remembers what it means to be a fireman. I look forward to more insights.

Keep up the good work!

Cogs

[lad45der 78]

Where is the video with McCormack exactly?? i watched most of the video footage and i did't see it???. I have taken Lt.McCormacks training classes in the past and would recommend the readers here to take classes taught by Lt.McCormack (act fast they fill up in a minute).

I'm sitting here reading for a promotion exam coming up and I would like to read a passage out of one of the books required for my exam. It's from the IFSTA 1st edition Fireground support operations. Chapter 4 Access into structures page 52.

" Striking the door with a shoulder is not recommended because it may cause injury to the shoulder and may allow the firefighter to fall through the doorway into a room that might be engulfed in flames. Likewise,standing in front of the doorway and kicking the door also leaves the firefighter exposed.A better technique is what some departments call a "mule kick" This technique is recommended because it uses the firefighters strongest muscles to strike the door,and it affords the firefighter the protection of the wall if fire erupts from the doorway when the door opens.

Here is another one of my favorites. Chapter 3 Access into structures page 36 "On locks that do not have a hardended shackle, the shackle should be cut at the very top of the arc so the shackle can be welded back together and reused".

I understand We have to read these books to stay safe??? But also let's listen to the men and women who speak from experience who actually did the job and let's learn from them. Every department is required by law to have a "Mission statement". I would like to see a law that states every department will a SOG (standard operating guideline") That reads The Department will have a have SOG requiring members to "pass on " information about firefighting that had a safe and favorable outcome. Because once these firemen retire or get killed I'm not sure were reliable information is gonna come from??. Were not going to fires we did back in the day. Were still killing just as many firemen with less fires. Wanna keep our people safe at car accident how about parking the rig across the accident scene to protect our people and victims. A vest is not gonna keep you from being run over by a car.

There is a change in society that effects safety in the fireservice. I was born in 1970 it would appear to me that people of my age and older folks might agree to this?. When i was a kid i fell out of trees broke an arm got cut and bruises my mother would beat the !@#$ out of me for being bad. Kids thought it was funny to hit your friend in the face with a slapshot and watch him bleed. We grew up using our heads and hands to make a living using things like hammers and handtools. I smashed my fingers and learned the hardway but didn't do that mistake twice. Society today has gotten SOFT parents don't raise kids like the old day's, kids play wii and work at the mall and go to college and learn whatever and become firemen. I've seen people on the job who clearly have never worked with there hands in life EVER. If you tell them the partner saw is broke open the roof with the pickhead axe they don't have the strength or the knowledge how to do it. This job is dangerous period amen nothing is gonna change that. There has to be a balance between being safe and getting the job done. Get water on the fire everything else gets better. People claim they make our jobs safer, There making profit on the fire service arm. Safety Vest, Apparatus manufactures, Bunker gear, etc. Remember each time you violate these rules guess what line up the lawyers, OSHA,NFPA departments have to pay lawsuites and big fines for violations. Guess what were still getting hurt and killed. Guys get back to the basics learn how to use your brain it's the best tool on the market and everybody has one. Listen to the experienced people, Here's a big one learn how to think without somebody telling you what to do. Accept risk that is brought upon you. Learn what the 3 UP's mean.

When guys like Lt.McCormack retire the experience walks out the door with him. Short of digging a guy up from his grave and stealing his brain I'm not sure where the future firemen will get experience from???. Unless we go to fires we will never gain the experience needed to stay safe. There is no propane fueled burn building with safety smoke that will teach our new firemen what to expect in the real world. As I have been told Train like it's the real thing. I belive the less fires we go to MORE firemen will get hurt because you loose the skills when we wait long periods of time between fires. Sometimes guys act likes it's the 1st fire they have been to just cause it's been so long since the last fire. Our job is different than others, We learn our job and get better at it only when we operate at real emergencys not drill not books.

[FirNaTine 370]

Now couple a Lack of Experience with Depts. Lowering their Standards and Dumbing Down the Fire Service and we have a real recipe for Disaster! You now have a Dept. where many have to be taken by the hand constantly and shown and explained on how and why things are done. Many individuals in the Fire Service today can not THINK on their own, including our so called "Senior Men" and unfortunately when they are required to do so, their decisions many times are the wrong ones. These are the times when individuals are injured an killed.

Edited May 5, 2009 by FirNaTine

[firecapt32 282]

What a great topic--this is the stuff we should be chatting about !!! Wanna reduce firfighter deaths by 25% SLOW DOWN BUCKLE UP WE didnt start the fire---our job is to help midagate the problem. Get there safely--do our job to the best of our ability--get home to our loved ones safely. so safety is very important-- so is doing the job-however as stated before its Risk vs Reward. Our job has risk always has --always will-- no matter what we do. Going to a floor right above a fire is a dangerous thing to do--any place --any tiime. Crawling down a smoke filled hallway will always rise your blood pressure and your heart beat--part of the answer is to be prepared--be the best you can be--train well-- train often. make it second nature. Take risks when you have to--dont be foolish Bag pipe music should only be played onSt Pts day when marching down fifth ave with all the women watching

[Guest FFNick]

Here is a link to Lt McCormack's Speech

If you LISTEN to his speech, and take it, in context, from where it is coming, it should make clear sense on his intent and his view. You may not agree with it, but, for me, it is a speech that was a long time coming, and I thank him for it.

[JimmyPFD 11]

Here is a link to Lt McCormack's Speech

If you LISTEN to his speech, and take it, in context, from where it is coming, it should make clear sense on his intent and his view. You may not agree with it, but, for me, it is a speech that was a long time coming, and I thank him for it.

Thanks for the link.

The message, when taken in context appears a lot less controversial than expected.

Key point made:

He mentioned public trust and responsibility to the commitment we have all made to saving lives, (not property).

"If we put out the fire; safety is accomplished for everyone on the fireground"