Where Does your Money Go?

[FDNYDCHI 38]

With the IFD situation about donations to the fire company, I am going to ask this question to other Volunteer fire departments as follows:

Besides operating budgets to run a fire department, Where does the money your department gets from "donations" used for? (Ie fund drive etc) Also does your fire department/ district "open up" your books to the community???

Chris

[38ff 250]

Fire District's "books" are already open to the community. Monthly bills are read off at every district meeting. If the public/taxpayers wants to come to the meeting, they can hear where every penny of their money is spent. Also, in October, public meetings are held where the public can come ask about the district budget. In the past 4 years in my district, I can count on one had the number of taxpayers that showed up for all 4 years total, and still have some fingers left over. No one can force taxpayers to come to the meetings. Every year we post when and where all the district meetings are, and the door is litterally and figuratively open for them to come.

Edited June 29, 2012 by 38ff

[gamewell45 258]

All monies donated to the fire company are used for expenses not covered by the fire district. When we send out our flyer ever year for donations, it is very specific and people are told what the monies collected are used for.

The fire districts books are always open and avilable at every Board meeting for anyone who wants to review them.

[ny10570 745]

District books are open, but company books are not. When the district cuts the company a check there is no longer any accountability.

[38ff 250]

At the Association of Fire Districts of NY meeting last fall, one of the attorneys mentioned a court case somewhere upstate where a woman was suing a Fire Company (not district) to make their finances open to the public. I havent heard any further on it.

[gamewell45 258]

District books are open, but company books are not. When the district cuts the company a check there is no longer any accountability.

I'm wondering if it would be possible for the public to foil the books. I'd think that if the fire company is a non-for profit organization, you might be able to gather information that way?

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Chris, you said you are or we're a member of Irvington. How much does the company there spend on fire/rescue (equipment, training, etc) vs social expenses and parades? Do they have an outside auditor? From the article and comments on the patch it seems like there is nobody overseeing them.

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

I am not saying it's right or wrong, but legally, the individual fire companies are not public entities. They are merely social organizations, much like the Elks Lodge or Lions Club. There is no oversight because legally, there does not have to be. The meetings are closed meetings, the budgets are closed budgets, and everything else about them is closed. The buildings that they own are not public property as one might think. There is no legal requirement for them to "show the books."

Even if you went to FOIL them, I'm sure it would be shot down since the company is private and there is no legal requirement to disclose anything. What the village or district does with the tax money is all public information. every appropriation, receipt, and cent is (should be) accounted for and spent accordingly.

Asking someone to show the funds of a social organization on a public forum is not going to happen, whether you want/like it or not.

[FDNYDCHI 38]

Smokey Joe:

Since I left a long time ago I really have no clue to what the numbers are

Chris

[gamewell45 258]

I am not saying it's right or wrong, but legally, the individual fire companies are not public entities. They are merely social organizations, much like the Elks Lodge or Lions Club. There is no oversight because legally, there does not have to be. The meetings are closed meetings, the budgets are closed budgets, and everything else about them is closed. The buildings that they own are not public property as one might think. There is no legal requirement for them to "show the books."

Even if you went to FOIL them, I'm sure it would be shot down since the company is private and there is no legal requirement to disclose anything. What the village or district does with the tax money is all public information. every appropriation, receipt, and cent is (should be) accounted for and spent accordingly.

Asking someone to show the funds of a social organization on a public forum is not going to happen, whether you want/like it or not.

I know that my current fire company is a not-for-profit corporation and I may be wrong, but i think organizations such as that may be subject to various disclosure laws. I know that my former fire company I belonged to in Westchester didn't fall under that category and as such I don't think the laws applied to them since their charter was granted by the Board of Fire Commissioners. Just a thought to help move the discussion along.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

I am not saying it's right or wrong, but legally, the individual fire companies are not public entities. They are merely social organizations, much like the Elks Lodge or Lions Club. There is no oversight because legally, there does not have to be. The meetings are closed meetings, the budgets are closed budgets, and everything else about them is closed. The buildings that they own are not public property as one might think. There is no legal requirement for them to "show the books."

Even if you went to FOIL them, I'm sure it would be shot down since the company is private and there is no legal requirement to disclose anything. What the village or district does with the tax money is all public information. every appropriation, receipt, and cent is (should be) accounted for and spent accordingly.

Asking someone to show the funds of a social organization on a public forum is not going to happen, whether you want/like it or not.

And what you're saying makes it scary that these people are getting and using tax $$s without anybody checking how and where.

Smokey Joe:

Since I left a long time ago I really have no clue to what the numbers are

Chris

As I expected

[firecapt32 282]

You may be right they are like the Elks Club or any service organization BUT when they send out letters that say "please send you TAX EXEMPT Donation to xyz fire company" the situation changes also on that note if the Fire Department send the letter out and recieves the donation and then distributes it to the Fire Companies that also changes the status.

Everyone here on this thread knows that fire companies need money to do things-- donations to little leagues--sponsors to other organizations--pay for bands at parades--company outings. that is all well and good and keeps members interested in belonging. All concerned must be carefull when dealing with public monies and how they are recieved and spent. But mosy if all we have to be concerned in how the public preseves us. They after all is said and done are the ones we are sworn to protect.

[firemn23 8]

It has been a while since I spent time on 501 regulations but I beleive if you are a social organization (italian american clubs, etc) then all activities must be paid for 100% by the members. If you are a 501©3 then the organization has a charitable activity. Being a 501©3 does not mean you can't entertain or pay people (american red cross does it). There have been a number of 9/11 charities where 1% of the donations goes to the cause the one I have in my mind spent millions on entertainment and really nothing to the cause. If you are a 501©3 then you have to complete form 990 and those can be looked up online. So everyone should remember that no charity is perfect and if you think that you going to a 10-13 benefit and all that money goes to the person or a burn car barebque and you think 50% of the money goes to the cause you are fooling yourself

[PFDRes47cue 653]

District books are open, but company books are not. When the district cuts the company a check there is no longer any accountability.

In my limited experience, I have found that the majority of money that the district disperses to the company already has a predetermined use. For example. The district may give a company $1000, but $500 of that is for the Chief's funds and $500 of that is for the band... There is still accountability.

[grumpyff 1,159]

I know that my current fire company is a not-for-profit corporation and I may be wrong, but i think organizations such as that may be subject to various disclosure laws. I know that my former fire company I belonged to in Westchester didn't fall under that category and as such I don't think the laws applied to them since their charter was granted by the Board of Fire Commissioners. Just a thought to help move the discussion along.

Gamewell,

I am in the same boat, my current department is a not for profit corporation, and receive money from the town. The have a say in a budget, and in years past have asked for justification for certain line items. I am not sure the public can request to see our books, but the town can. We did one fundraiser mailing a few years back, mostly our carnival is our fundraiser.

Since we were both in the same prior department that levied a tax, IIRC correctly tax money was used for the department operations, i.e training, apparatus repair/replacement, insurance and the like. It was the 2 percent money from insurance policies that was split evenly among the 4 senior companies. That money was used by the companies as they saw fit, but it was also expected that some of the 2% money would be used to support the department band, and a chiefs fund. I know my previous company saved money, and invested in money markets to support our 100th anniversary. At one point we were warned by the department treasurer, that as a non profit organization we would have a hard time justifying how much money we had saved over the course of 10 years.

[gamewell45 258]

Gamewell,

I am in the same boat, my current department is a not for profit corporation, and receive money from the town. The have a say in a budget, and in years past have asked for justification for certain line items. I am not sure the public can request to see our books, but the town can. We did one fundraiser mailing a few years back, mostly our carnival is our fundraiser.

Since we were both in the same prior department that levied a tax, IIRC correctly tax money was used for the department operations, i.e training, apparatus repair/replacement, insurance and the like. It was the 2 percent money from insurance policies that was split evenly among the 4 senior companies. That money was used by the companies as they saw fit, but it was also expected that some of the 2% money would be used to support the department band, and a chiefs fund. I know my previous company saved money, and invested in money markets to support our 100th anniversary. At one point we were warned by the department treasurer, that as a non profit organization we would have a hard time justifying how much money we had saved over the course of 10 years.

Yes you are correct now that I think of it; I recall the Treasurer mentioning that some years ago.

Edited June 30, 2012 by gamewell45

[ny10570 745]

In my limited experience, I have found that the majority of money that the district disperses to the company already has a predetermined use. For example. The district may give a company $1000, but $500 of that is for the Chief's funds and $500 of that is for the band... There is still accountability.

What about the fund drive money? Thats a substantial amount that gets no scrutiny.

[ex-commish 490]

"District books are open, but company books are not. When the district cuts the company a check there is no longer any accountability."

Not sure if this is true. There was a court case many years ago..dont remember it exactly but I believe it was in Orange County regarding denial of membership based on being a female and fire companies being considered public agencies because they accept donations. If anyone remembers the case please cite it.