How many of us would go to a WMD attack

[calhobs 110]

In my ERT class last year the instructor said that FDNY's union did some sort of survey with there memebers asking if there was a dirty bomb attack in the city who would show. These are the results we where told in the class 35% of fdny now this includes ems and fire 35% who were on duty said they would go home. 75% who were due on the next shift said they would not come in, and 95% who were off for the day said they would not come in. Now I do not know if this is true this is most certian second hand information at the least. But it has me thinking how many of us here would go to a dirty bomb attack here in White Plans. Or mutlpile attacks across the county. Too be honest my wife has asked me many times that what if question. and all i can do is just stare her in the eyes and say hopefully it wont happn. How do you all feel. Please keep in mind the stats above are only hear say from a class this is by no means me sayon its going to happen

Edited September 26, 2005 by calhobs

[WAS967 97]

WE just aren't ready for any kind of Hazmat response. Even if it wasn't a dirty bomb, if I heard about a Hazmat incident, I'd be posting quite a ways away. People dead or dying because a cyanide truck rolled - "get the medic in here - we got people dying!!" - My response - "Negative. Call me when the scene is SAFE".

Fact of the matter is, when it comes to a deadly hazmat scene - people are probably already dead. And more are GOING to die before a safe method of decon can be setup. No matter what we do or how quickly we setup decon, that will never change.

If I were dispatched to a call for an explosion and I even suspected a dirty bomb, I'd be nowhere near it until the scene was declared safe. And I'm sorry folks, but there is only one group that I would trust in a nuclear/atomic scenario to tell me that the area is safe. And it's NOT the local fire/police department.

[Medic137 6]

I'll be a mile behind WAS. Uphill and upwind.

Underfunding EMS for all these years comes with a price. I'll take the calls I'm equipped and trained to handle. I'm lucky if there's a turnout coat in my truck. (With the name of a defunct ambulance service on the back).

[WAS967 97]

Wow. You have turnout gear? Cool. You guys must be rich!

I'd be happy if we were at least given a rain coat.

But hey! We have great looking helmets! (Look like a ConEd worker, but heck. It's better than nothing. Or is it?)

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Knowing what I know...I would respond, to my designated staging area and await further orders. If it was a dirty bomb, I'd have no problem with anything that would have to be done, which at that point is mostly deconning contaminated and/or exposed persons and to get readings in and around the hot zone to determine where the warm zone will be. In encapsulated suits, with dosing equipment that I'm trained to wear and use. For some of us the scene doesn't have to be safe, it has to be contained or stabilizing for us to operate. Dirty bombs primary concern is explosive detonation and then the contaminates themselves, which depending on what they use will be mostly beta and potentially some gamma radiation material. Alpha and beta particles are the best being they need to be introduced into the body somehow to start causing damage.

True nuclear detonation, isn't gonna matter...won't be all that close and no will be able to for quite some time. But again there are things to be done and it all comes down to time, distance and shielding.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself....

Knowledge is power!

[Guest]

tough question! i think was967 hit the nail on the head. they also dropped the ball on educating the public. how many civilians even know what decon is? sorry to inncoveiniance you miss but you need to take your clothes off and take a shower with no conditioner! these guys running for county office should bring this up, O wait that's to much like work!

[Guest JQP442]

To be quite honest, I dont know if I could respond. My wife and I have had the conversation a number of times and the answer is always the same. I would like to think that I will respond if my FD is called upon, but im not sure. Its "easy" to sit here today and say yes or no, but untill that call comes in, none of us know what we will do. Also, the call probably will not come in as a WMD issue at first. Probably will start as a unknown explosion or other such event that may not rase any red flags when you hear it. It will be the 2nd or 3rd companys in that will have the info that we are dealing with a dirty bomb/WMD.

Lets hope none of us ever get that call.

[Guest]

To be quite honest, I dont know if I could respond. My wife and I have had the conversation a number of times and the answer is always the same. I would like to think that I will respond if my FD is called upon, but im not sure. Its "easy" to sit here today and say yes or no, but untill that call comes in, none of us know what we will do. Also, the call probably will not come in as a WMD issue at first. Probably will start as a unknown explosion or other such event that may not rase any red flags when you hear it. It will be the 2nd or 3rd companys in that will have the info that we are dealing with a dirty bomb/WMD.

Lets hope none of us ever get that call.

←

This guy is right, you do not know until the time comes. Maybe we're conditioned to get up and go when the tones go off, but between the door of the house and the door of the car one's brain may start to work and question if it's worth responding to this type of event. I'll tell when you the times comes.

[calhobs 110]

I think this issue also plays into is this county able to handle it if it happens. There are more volly depts here then paid. I am sure there are many of us who volly who here the call come in and say "screw that i gotto take care of my family first" or "i dont get paid for this" and i am sure there are many in the career who may feel the the same way. Then again there are alot in both the paid and volly who feel this is my job i have to go. It is a tough choice to make. But also it may be something the county may want too look into if those stats about fdny are true. I doagree with both of you above its a decision that will be made at that time for me also.

[Remember585 815]

I suppose I would go, unless ALS is there, then I can stay home knowing that he has the condition well in hand.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Flatery will get you everywhere brother....lol.

In all seriousness gang, I know I'm going, claxton hits I go, only difference is I don't get in the car, unless its my flycar, otherwise its get into the engine.

[Guest]

Personally, my family will be taken care of before ANYTHING else. Once their safety and security is guaranteed, I would respond to the incident without a doubt.

I do agree with JQP that we most likely would have no clue what we were walking into. It would, with out a doubt, be dispatched as something else. It could be hours, or even days (in some cases with WMD) before we were made aware of what we had been exposed to or experienced symptoms.

Be safe out there!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I dont' have that luxury, if I'm at work I'm going. My family will have to be taken care of by my wife and other family members.

If talking about what was mentioned which was a dirty bomb attack you would know instantly that you have a major incident. You may not know it is radiologically involved until we have our detection devices, but you will know if its a true nuclear detonation. Biological agents are the ones that take hours or days but you will generally know by then what you walking into because someone has to pick up that masses of people are getting sick with the same illness.

How can you tell?

Conventional explosives will give off dark, black smoke. You will have to test the environment to see if it was any radiological material involved. If there is, you will have to be deconed, and as long as you had your SCBA on you will be well protected at best against internal contamination which is the greatest threat to injury. Many persons with internal contamination survive but with some chronic illness/injury and pain from radiation burns at contact points.

True nuclear detonations give off white smoke, you may not have the classic mushroom but will have tremendous heat, light and white smoke output.

Chemical attack you will know immediately, and generally EMS will be called first unless its a mass episode and a explosive was used to disperse, which be happy if it is, it will burn up greater then 50% of the material.

Biological takes hours to days and that will be found first by medical again.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Good preperation starts with good education and continual training. Get out there and train to be prepared.

[WAS967 97]

Good preperation starts with good education and continual training. Get out there and train to be prepared.

Good idea. I've been meaning to get into a Hazmat technician class, just need to get past the red tape. Having the knowledge from that class would be a good start towards being better able to respond to a hazmat incident, even if we don't typically have all the equipment.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

WAS: Hazmat operations is more your speed to be able to recognize and indentify a hazmat and material involved. Tech is great, but its more hands on of how to suit up in level A and use different tools to mitigate the problem.

[WAS967 97]

I'll definatly do Ops....but figure Tech would be a good class to get more of the hands on stuff like you said. Doubt I'd ever use it, but good to have the knowledge. Maybe then I'd know the difference between Level A suits and encapsulating SCBA.

[JeffSlots 1]

I guess I'm a little different, the type of firefighter i was raised as is to go to everything. A CO No Symptoms to a Working Structure Fire, we are Emergency Responders beacuse we respond to emergencies, not decide against it ... when the pager goes off who is gonna answer?

[SHAC7301 0]

Cal (Rob)

I think that there is a basic point that we are all missing here. Not all WMD attacks would be easily identifiable at the start of the incident. A dirty bomb would initially look like a conventonal explosion. Biological coud go on for days without being properly identified. Chemical would probably look like some type of unknown MCI (unless there is an obvious vapor cloud).

We are so far behind the power-curve on electronic identification (detectors) that you would probably have to wait for a true Hazmat unit to arrive to find out what we had. Most trucks don't even have radiation detectors. Hopefully we would not have contaminated ourselves by then.

So, many of us would probably already be there by the time we figured out that it was a WMD attack.

The bottom line is that if you see alot of bodies lying around with no clear cause of death or injury, you may want to back the hell up and call for the Calvary!!!!

Edited October 3, 2005 by SHAC7301

[JBE 328]

This is probably going to ruffle some feathers, and it's something that was very true. It was written in an old Coast Guard book. "You have to go out, but you don't have to come back." If you're properly equipped, you have to go and it's up to you and your colleagues to ensure that you do come back.