DCJPells

x129k....It was time for new gear.....
I agree that under most circumstances a missed victim is not understandable. It did not go as much to say it was a Collyers Mansion situation but under those circumstances I could see there being a problem. There was evidence of the possability of person(s) being in the structure so a more thorough 2nd search needs to be done. Maintain possession of the structure and dig.
There have been several reported cases where the victims were trapped under the "stuff" in these situations without having a fire.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Collyers+Mansion&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=u&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS357US359&tbm=isch&source=univ&ei=gt_eUIDYC6Ls0QGm8YCABQ&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=826

x129k....It was time for new gear.....
I agree that under most circumstances a missed victim is not understandable. It did not go as much to say it was a Collyers Mansion situation but under those circumstances I could see there being a problem. There was evidence of the possability of person(s) being in the structure so a more thorough 2nd search needs to be done. Maintain possession of the structure and dig.
There have been several reported cases where the victims were trapped under the "stuff" in these situations without having a fire.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Collyers+Mansion&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=u&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS357US359&tbm=isch&source=univ&ei=gt_eUIDYC6Ls0QGm8YCABQ&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=826

What are your thoughts. I have read a few of these over the past couple years.
http://www.khou.com/news/local/Firefighters-put-out-fire-miss-body-inside-home--184866921.html

It's very embarrassing for this department. Every vacant or unoccupied building should be considered occupied upon arrival and until the last unit or fire investigative team leaves.
Years ago there was a fatal fire in a neighboring town from me, they new they still had an occupant in the building but they could not find his remains. There was also talk that he was out of town. But the FD and FMO remained on scene and finally they were able to locate the person's corpse though it was severely unrecognizable.
Primary and secondary searches are for the initial part of any emergency call (fires, MVAs with ejections, ect.) but you should be searching during overhaul for human remains if there is any possible fatality. And like everyone stated above more training is needed for firefighters with this and preservation of evidence.

I've held my tongue long enough. No one knows why the shooter did this. Let the police finish the investigation instead of coming up with theories.
Society has changed. I don't know how/why it did. Things aren't like they used to be. I grew up playing cops & robbers, army & video games. I didn't turnout to be a sociopath.
It is tragic that this had to happen. I feel that since the media sensationalize all these shootings, you get the copycats. The media are a bunch of vultures. All they care about is ratings. The families should be allowed to mourn in peace.
Everyone that's screaming for gun control should look at the laws already in place. They just need to be enforced better. The shooter drove to the school. If we had banned cars, he never would have made it to the school (sarcasm). Anybody remember the Fast & Furious program the FEDERAL gov't implemented? The gov't wanted to track straw purchases of guns going to Mexico. It worked real well. The program got Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry killed on Dec 15, 2010. You expect the Feds to protect us with gun laws?!?! I conceal carry because the world is not full of rainbows & unicorns. The POTUS & elected officials get armed security details. Who is there to protect my family from the scum of society? That's right, me and my evil guns.
Before you all jump down my throat, let me introduce myself. I'm Justin Lurix & the 2nd Ass't Chief of the Botsford Fire Dept in Newtown, CT. I also work for a neighboring police agency that responded to the school. These are my personal feelings & have no reflection on my agencies.

I'm not sure of your background or experience but you are treading on very thin ice with the volunteer/career comments. Please DO NOT start a career vs. volunteer debate; see the forum guidelines for an explanation on why we won't tolerate that.
As for your question...
I don't give a damn if the crew coming to help my local FD when my house is on fire is career or volunteer SO LONG AS they're properly trained and equipped to do the job and have the appropriate numbers of personnel. If it's a career truck with one FF or a volunteer truck with five guys but only one "qualified" FF, you can keep 'em.
What is the benefit of "local knowledge" when you have fire blowing out the windows in an ordinary construction building? The engine guys know how to stretch hose no matter what street they're on and the ladder guys know how to ventilate the building regardless of its address? Getting there may be a momentary issue but with GPS, computers, smart-phones, maps and, oh yeah, the radio if all else fails, they're going to get there.

Yet another embattled department in the same town/city area doing extraordinary work with minimal to barely there manpower. No matter how bad the journal and the vocal minority try to cut us down we always get the job done. Nice job guys.

For all of you guys pushing the "EMD Angle";
Falls; Public Assist (NO injuries and NO priority symptoms) 17A3 = EMS Only on my cardset....so to answer the question, where I work, lift assists are handled by EMS.
I will go on record as saying, again, that I am not a firm beleiver in the entire EMD concept. The pre-arrival instructions for CPR, choking, and hemmorage control are true lifesavers, but the majority of the other "fluff" is just that, and almost all callers in an urban area, are not receptive to it. "Just send the MFing ammolance!".
The check and advise system is set up for failure UNLESS the responding officers or firemen are at least EMT's AND carry gear...
THIS GUY right here F'ing gets it! Great post!

Since the NYS Fire & Police pension system is fully funded (at 107%), is mandated in the state constitution and the state bills each FD or Municipality for each employee. And no career FD in NYS has its own pension system. Can you please identify which career FD you are refering to?
Is it possible that the fund may become underfunded? Yes, we have had 3 govenours try to raid it, one even withheld payments, but the courts ordered him to repay it with interest.
At the same time can you list who is regulating the LOSAP funds? and how they are being handled?

Dutchess is just RIPE for consolidation! There are several townships with different departments amongst them....Imagine the quality of service, "power" (read; manpower, rescources, knowledge), and respect they could have. I truly feel it could be a win for the citizens, and a win for the members.

http://www.poughkeep...psieJournal.com

http://www.poughkeep...psieJournal.com

Good Job Everyone!!

Closed shops are illegal in many states (Taft-Hartley Act of 1948) and what you are describing amounts to what the laws are in the so-called Right-To-Work states where union membership cannot be a requirement in order to maintain employment. These people, who do not pay any dues and are not members of the union, still receive the benefits of being covered under the collective bargaining agreement and are referred to as "freeloaders" since they leach off of others who are members who pay dues towards the bargaining and maintenance of labor agreements.
That being said, in New York State, which is an Agency Shop, you cannot be forced to join a union, but as a condition of employment, you must pay a fee equal to what the dues would normally be. This is known as an agency fee payer. There are also the so-called "Core Members" and they are those whom pay the same fee as Agency Fee Payers, however they get back a partial refund based on how much money is spent on non-contract related expenses such as organizing, parties/social events, etc. Core and Agency fee payers do not have a right to vote on labor agreements, nor are they eligible to participate in union sponsored benfits such as social events, education, run for positions within the union and other fringe benefits provided soley by the union.
All this being said, as a disclaimer, I'm not aware of any language in the public sector being different from private sector since this is federal law and applies to all equally as described.

The Firefighter is at fault!
Why? Because this is 2010. Everything is somehow the Firefighters fault.
The economy? Our fault
Low private sector pensions? Our fault
Gulf war? Our fault...retaliation for our 343
Global warming? Our fault...we go shopping with rigs
Civilian fire death? Our fault...slow response
Vehicle accident? Our fault...driving too fast

Just as an idea for other departments.....Anytime there is the possibility of a fire or dive call in a neighboring department, members get on a group chat and send a text out. Guys who are available send a message back and if it sounds legit enough start heading to the FD, so everyone already knows if we're going who's going to show up.
First due, Mutual aid as a specific Co. or as a FAST, our guys enjoy going to fires and love what we do (we absolutely hate to see property damaged and lives destroyed, but we enjoy being able to mitigate a problem, help formulate a solution to minimize the damage and assist the individuals affected). Why would someone sign up to take a career or volunteer their time, to be something that they don't want to be? You are now part of the snowballing problem of volunteer / combo departments who are able to "boost numbers" with individuals on the roster, who never show up to do anything. "Oh our roster has 70 active members." Really? How many on an average call, working fire, car accident, auto alarm actually show up to do something, three maybe four?
My point is being, by padding your numbers with individuals who don't show up, you've now given a false sense of manpower to the community (the people and property you are sworn to protect), "We dont need to supplement with career staff, or hold a huge recruitment drive because of our 70 members." This in turn now adds to your response time for ANY type of call...both from the lack of manpower and the manpower that just doesn't care. EVERY department needs to look at themselves as a business would during a monthly, quarterly or yearly audit and say "What can we do to better ourselves to better our relations with the community, our brothers surrounding us and the fire service as a whole?" If every department did this, and actually made improvements on themselves we would be in a whole different state of affairs in Westchester and in the US.

Just remember Lairdsville!!!! A chief was convicted because of failure to follow NFPA (1403). The standards are starting to be used in court.

I was just learnig ebonics and now they throw youngbonics and texting at me.

Since I'm one of those guys who has taken multiple companies out of our jurisdiction for training, I can tell you this - every time I do it I can't help but wonder if it's a bad idea. But, every time we've done it, we have two Engines and a Ladder covering us, whether it's all Mutual Aid or a combination of our own units.
As a multi-company department, it is important for us to work together often and keep up our skills. We can only do so many drills in our own area, but we don't have much to use. The Fire Training Center is a great facility with so many options for people to fine-tune their skills. It is of the utmost importance to us, as a department, to drill on a regular basis, especially because our call volume isn't that high. We used to try "Department Drills" using only one or two rigs, and those from the other companies wouldn't come because they remained in town to staff their apparatus for any calls we might have. This is why we now have multi-company drills and department drills involving all companies, and depend on Mutual Aid help to cover the home turf while we improve ourselves.
It's a pain in the a**, I can't lie, because most of us here (volunteer and paid) don't have the proper facilities to do live fire training, so traveling out of town isn't an option, it's the only way we can do it.
We all want to be better firefighters, fire companies and fire departments, so if that means occassionally pulling companies out of service / out of town to train, that's what we have to do. Pulling resources out of town for a parade or other parties and not keeping people behind to mind the shop, that's just begging to get caught with your pants down. I have nothing against parades, I LOVE THEM, but what I hate is how to some people it's nothing more then a chance to put on their uniforms, get hammered and embarass those of us that actually still give a s***.
I've said it before on here, uniforms & booze don't mix. It's these public displays of stupidity that make all of us have to defend ourselves to everyone as not being a bunch of drunken firemen!
Be proud, but be smart. Remember our priorities in the fire service - response, training, prevention and education.

FYI: The first time I received word about PESH's stance on the pump operator was through a Buffalo coorespondance in August of 1998, just prior to the implementation of the Respiratory Standard. In 2004, I was looking for the coorespondance and could not find the original so I contacted PESH and the attached e-mail was received.
2in3out.pdf

That is right. PESH stated early on that the pump operator could not be considered one of the two out. Remeber that they are the "rescue" team and PESH feels it is not a position that can be abandoned. I will look and see if I can find the paper.

Not knowing anything about Dutchess County, but speaking of our own neighborhood...
Just a couple of thoughts running through my head.
1. You should have the courtesy to send at least what you would expect when making the request yourself.
2. Relocates should be treated like a scene response, because you could very well end up going to the scene.
3. On a COUNTY LEVEL, we should all be sending the same minimum crew, whatever we all decide upon.
4. Don't abuse the system. I know some places lack personnel to handle "simple" incidents, and call upon Mutual Aid to cover them while they handle something "simple," which (for paid and volunteer guys) can become a nuisance.
5. If you can't provide a minimum crew of capable, QUALIFIED personnel, MAN UP and state you can't handle it. It's more respectable not to send a crappy crew then it is to response / relocate with one.
A while ago, the Chiefs in our Battalion met and had a discussion as to what the minimum personnel expectation should be per apparatus. We have lived up to our end of the "suggested policy," and when we call for assistance we would expect the same. (Luckily we've had it)
Every call we go to, whether in our own neighborhoods or on Mutual Aid, is a reflection on the organization as a whole. Sending a lack of personnel or a group of unqualified personnel makes you look like a group of unconcerned, "living in fantasyland" misfits. If you relocate with a sub-par crew and you're dispatched to another emergency that you can't handle...who loses?
Not to mention it could trigger a heated EMTBravo discussion, as we've seen before...