fireguy43

So there you go boys and girls,enough holes in the times to drive a tanker through. Did Banksville's tanker respond at 16:19 or 16:27? What arrived on scene at 16:28, E157, E158, or both? Read through this thread and see how different the times are from one person to the next. Who knows who's right, and who cares? Once again, a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking and commentary by people who were not involved whatsoever, speculating and criticizing with incomplete, inaccurate information. I fail to see what is gained by all of this. My two cents.

Thanks Mike. I was pretty confident that the times were exact but I was waiting for you to confirm it. So....could someone please explain why the Banksville tanker was not enroute for a Banksville structure fire until 12 minutes after the initial alarm? None of this makes sense to me. Is this the norm???

OK, I know the IA times aren't always exact however I have a question regarding the Banksville Fire based on what was reported in the IA.
1615 initial alarm?
1623 MA Tanker requested?
1627 Banksville Tanker responding?
It would appear from reading this that the first due tanker didn't get out of the barn until 12 minutes after the alarm came in...since I don't know squat about this area or tankers maybe someone can enlighten me...how many Firefighters are necessary to get the tanker on the road, isn't it only one? I assume this area has no hydrants? If the IA times are correct, why did it take so long to get the tanker responding, especially on a Saturday afternoon when I would assume would be the most ideal time to hope for an adequate response from volunteer Firefighters?
PS, How far in miles is the closest firehouse from this home?
Thanks!

FYI: The first time I received word about PESH's stance on the pump operator was through a Buffalo coorespondance in August of 1998, just prior to the implementation of the Respiratory Standard. In 2004, I was looking for the coorespondance and could not find the original so I contacted PESH and the attached e-mail was received.
2in3out.pdf

It seems form IAs that westchester departments are calling FAST teams on a regular basis. Continually I point out that the FAST is put to work for non FAST duties. If this is happening its probably points to the fact that the first alarm assignment is not adequete. The IC should plan to have crews in reserve on scene to perfom the tasks needed to avoid using the FAST. Depending on the department in addition to calling for a FAST on the working fire simulataeously requesting an extra engine and truck would provide this reserve. If you operating at a working fire and all hands are working and no one is there in reserve you are not prepared. I could understand the arguement of limited resources or mutual aid being too far away if this was Wyoming but we are talking about Westchester County. The NFPA 1710 recomendations are the minimum resources needed to combat a fire I think adding an extra engine and truck to that is being adequetly prepared for the realities of the fireground. There are many added benifits like giving the first due guys a blow and think of the experince the the probies from mutual aid get doing the washdown and getting to find out how first due handled the fire they were confronted with. I am continually impressed with our chief officers abilities to stay ahead of a fire and request resources before the need arises. That is the benifit of and experienced incident commander and why one is invaluable.

That is right. PESH stated early on that the pump operator could not be considered one of the two out. Remeber that they are the "rescue" team and PESH feels it is not a position that can be abandoned. I will look and see if I can find the paper.

If the information provided in the IA is accurate, or even close to accurate, that situation is a darn shame and is just one more in a long line of fires and emergencies in Westchester County recently which beg the cause of regionalization and consolidation.

This might help boys.
BVAC
http://www.beaconvac.org/
This is from the History Section o the BVAC Website
The Beacon Volunteer Ambulance Corps was first started in 1958 due to impetus from a Beacon police officer and a Beacon Engine Company member named Walter Detwiller. He was a transplant from New Jersey, but while still living in New Jersey, his son's life was saved by a volunteer ambulance corps in the area. He thought that it would greatly benefit the community to have our own ambulance service in Beacon and he went to work on the project. He enlisted the help of Joe Catalano and George Cable and the members of the Beacon Engine Company and recruited 29 people to start the Beacon Volunteer Ambulance Corps.
The initial ambulance was a 1948 burned out Cadillac ambulance, donated from a dealer in New Jersey, that the members refurbished. The ambulance was housed at the Beacon Engine Company, which also housed our emergency phone. Soon we outgrew our facilities there and through the efforts of the Beacon Engine Company, an old two bay garage was purchased and donated to BVAC. This was our new home. As the years passed, BVAC again felt the growing pains and in 1975 construction on the current building commenced. This was done primarily by volunteers and the heavy construction was through the Naval Reserve Seabee Unit located in the area. Construction continued for five long years. The BVAC Headquarters as we know it today was dedicated in May of 1980.
There was no county dispatch system for us in the beginning, so at first, 3, then 7 members had phones installed in their homes to receive emergency calls. They would get on the phone and call members to man the ambulance whenever an emergency call came in. In 1980 a new dispatch system came to BVAC as the Beacon Police Department began to answer the phone lines and they would, in turn, dispatch us by way of our, then new, pagers. This continued until 1984 when we joined the Dutchess County Bureau of Fire dispatch system, which we still use to this day.
We have changed and upgraded our service many times since our incorporation on April 16, 1959. We became New York State Certified in 1990, Defibrillation Certified in 1991, and provide complete Advanced Life Support by way of contract providers in October of 1996. We currently run a fleet of three modern, fully equipped, New York State Certified ambulances, as well as a Basic Life Support First Response vehicle. We have also recently added a Mass Casualty Incident Trailer. We currently run approximately 2200 calls per year, which makes us one of the busiest volunteer services in the county.
Thomas

Thanks "Iz".... did some research of my own today. Grew up in a department that had nothing but ALF's for years, but never saw one of these.... according to some of the websites I checked, only about 110 of these were ever built in Elmira, and a modest few were built at a plant in the Toronto area. US Gov't sent a few to Austrailia and New Zealand in the late '30's and early '40's before entering the war under a program to supply the Allies. There is apparently some disagreement over what JOX means, J standing for the cab forward design, O for open cab, but the X is defined in different places as for eXposed ladder storage or eXperimental design. Neat looking truck, especially with the rear fender skirts.

Why would the name continue to have "Volunteer" in it? It is deceptive and an insult to actual volunteer agencies......

I noticed in reading the IA on the Croton Falls Fire that it was dispatched at 1605 and at 1617 the Somers Ladder was "waiting for more manpower"...(12 minutes after the initial response) What does this mean exactly? Is this ladder part of the initial assignment? Were there other ladder companies responding? How long after 1617 did this ladder company actually respond and with how many personnel? This was on a weekend afternoon. I'm surprised that there would be any problem with manpower. Is there an issue with having an adequate number of responders in this area too?

Chief- A few points. I'm not here to knock you or the Yonkers FD. I didn't even know that that was your affiliation until today. I don't know any active members of YFD, nor do I know anyone affiliated with either Somers or Croton Falls. You have a right to your opinions and beliefs, and a right to express them just like I do. No problem there. You can even have an "agenda" or a point of view that you want to reinforce when the opportunity presents itself, that too is okay with me.
Where we differ is that I would advance my "agenda" or point of view when I have the facts to support my case. What I have seen on a couple of occasions, most recently with the Croton Falls IA, is that you are jumping to conclusions which you believe support your case without a complete set of facts. Any IA, written by anyone on here, is subject to the faults (memory, hearing, ability to type fast enough, etc) of the writer. In the course of a long list of radio transmissions, the writer in this case did not note the specific dispatch of the Somers Ladder. When, further down in the alert, there is a notation that the truck was responding shortly, or whatever the notation, you automatically began looking for the reason why they took so long to get out, and immediately began a line of questions that clearly indicated that you thought that. You obviously are very passionate on this issue, all I'm saying is give it a rest once in a while and don't assume that in every IA, there is a delayed response or inadequate manpower situation based on a snippet of a radio transmission taken out of context.
Perhaps you are right on target with your thoughts on regionalization in Westchester. I don't know, I don't live there, and I don't know all of the details of the issue. Be happy to read anything you have in the way of a position paper or other documentation, if you care to provide me with a notation of some online source that I can go to to read it. As to my opportunity to criticize the YFD, I am not qualified. I'm sure that the members of YFD do a great job. Your promise not to cry when my opportunity arises to criticize your department is lost on me, it'll never happen. Stay safe.....

A well worded reply. Good news is that someone had the correct information to explain what was going on. Bad news is that an explanation was necessary. We are all here to learn and share, not to be second guessed by people with no understanding of local geography, dispatch protocols, or equipment. It's getting a little old to read time and again how certain members disect every IA for precise times and raise questions that insinuate that things were not done correctly.

Chief- A few points. I'm not here to knock you or the Yonkers FD. I didn't even know that that was your affiliation until today. I don't know any active members of YFD, nor do I know anyone affiliated with either Somers or Croton Falls. You have a right to your opinions and beliefs, and a right to express them just like I do. No problem there. You can even have an "agenda" or a point of view that you want to reinforce when the opportunity presents itself, that too is okay with me.
Where we differ is that I would advance my "agenda" or point of view when I have the facts to support my case. What I have seen on a couple of occasions, most recently with the Croton Falls IA, is that you are jumping to conclusions which you believe support your case without a complete set of facts. Any IA, written by anyone on here, is subject to the faults (memory, hearing, ability to type fast enough, etc) of the writer. In the course of a long list of radio transmissions, the writer in this case did not note the specific dispatch of the Somers Ladder. When, further down in the alert, there is a notation that the truck was responding shortly, or whatever the notation, you automatically began looking for the reason why they took so long to get out, and immediately began a line of questions that clearly indicated that you thought that. You obviously are very passionate on this issue, all I'm saying is give it a rest once in a while and don't assume that in every IA, there is a delayed response or inadequate manpower situation based on a snippet of a radio transmission taken out of context.
Perhaps you are right on target with your thoughts on regionalization in Westchester. I don't know, I don't live there, and I don't know all of the details of the issue. Be happy to read anything you have in the way of a position paper or other documentation, if you care to provide me with a notation of some online source that I can go to to read it. As to my opportunity to criticize the YFD, I am not qualified. I'm sure that the members of YFD do a great job. Your promise not to cry when my opportunity arises to criticize your department is lost on me, it'll never happen. Stay safe.....

Chief- A few points. I'm not here to knock you or the Yonkers FD. I didn't even know that that was your affiliation until today. I don't know any active members of YFD, nor do I know anyone affiliated with either Somers or Croton Falls. You have a right to your opinions and beliefs, and a right to express them just like I do. No problem there. You can even have an "agenda" or a point of view that you want to reinforce when the opportunity presents itself, that too is okay with me.
Where we differ is that I would advance my "agenda" or point of view when I have the facts to support my case. What I have seen on a couple of occasions, most recently with the Croton Falls IA, is that you are jumping to conclusions which you believe support your case without a complete set of facts. Any IA, written by anyone on here, is subject to the faults (memory, hearing, ability to type fast enough, etc) of the writer. In the course of a long list of radio transmissions, the writer in this case did not note the specific dispatch of the Somers Ladder. When, further down in the alert, there is a notation that the truck was responding shortly, or whatever the notation, you automatically began looking for the reason why they took so long to get out, and immediately began a line of questions that clearly indicated that you thought that. You obviously are very passionate on this issue, all I'm saying is give it a rest once in a while and don't assume that in every IA, there is a delayed response or inadequate manpower situation based on a snippet of a radio transmission taken out of context.
Perhaps you are right on target with your thoughts on regionalization in Westchester. I don't know, I don't live there, and I don't know all of the details of the issue. Be happy to read anything you have in the way of a position paper or other documentation, if you care to provide me with a notation of some online source that I can go to to read it. As to my opportunity to criticize the YFD, I am not qualified. I'm sure that the members of YFD do a great job. Your promise not to cry when my opportunity arises to criticize your department is lost on me, it'll never happen. Stay safe.....

Agreed... it is perfectly okay to ask questions to seek clarity on times, tactics, situations, etc. when done in the spirit of learning something. It is quite another to ask questions in an interrogatory tone that, when you read it, you just know that there is an agenda and an insinuation behind the questioning. We are all here to share and learn, not to raise the possibility that someone did something wrong or didn't get out of the barn fast enough. I'll refer to Post4031's thread of a few weeks ago, where he commented on about the same thing...... there are a few members who get their jollies out of picking on and picking apart whatever anyone else does. Come to think of it, not much different than the local firehouse.......

Chief- A few points. I'm not here to knock you or the Yonkers FD. I didn't even know that that was your affiliation until today. I don't know any active members of YFD, nor do I know anyone affiliated with either Somers or Croton Falls. You have a right to your opinions and beliefs, and a right to express them just like I do. No problem there. You can even have an "agenda" or a point of view that you want to reinforce when the opportunity presents itself, that too is okay with me.
Where we differ is that I would advance my "agenda" or point of view when I have the facts to support my case. What I have seen on a couple of occasions, most recently with the Croton Falls IA, is that you are jumping to conclusions which you believe support your case without a complete set of facts. Any IA, written by anyone on here, is subject to the faults (memory, hearing, ability to type fast enough, etc) of the writer. In the course of a long list of radio transmissions, the writer in this case did not note the specific dispatch of the Somers Ladder. When, further down in the alert, there is a notation that the truck was responding shortly, or whatever the notation, you automatically began looking for the reason why they took so long to get out, and immediately began a line of questions that clearly indicated that you thought that. You obviously are very passionate on this issue, all I'm saying is give it a rest once in a while and don't assume that in every IA, there is a delayed response or inadequate manpower situation based on a snippet of a radio transmission taken out of context.
Perhaps you are right on target with your thoughts on regionalization in Westchester. I don't know, I don't live there, and I don't know all of the details of the issue. Be happy to read anything you have in the way of a position paper or other documentation, if you care to provide me with a notation of some online source that I can go to to read it. As to my opportunity to criticize the YFD, I am not qualified. I'm sure that the members of YFD do a great job. Your promise not to cry when my opportunity arises to criticize your department is lost on me, it'll never happen. Stay safe.....

I'm sorry you feel this way but glad most others do not.
Yes, there is an agenda behind the question. I will again beat the drum here...I, and many others, believe that there is a serious problem in most parts of Westchester County with inadequate Fire and EMS coverage. For the most part, the public has no idea of this problem. I believe the problems can be solved through consolidation and regionalization. However, to solve this problem, we first need to educate both the public and many members of the Fire Service here in Westchester that there is in fact a serious problem. Questioning response times and manpower levels is part of this process. It is not personal, it is business. I do not "get my jollies from this", nor do I feel that I or my own department is perfect. I do realize that there are many (not most) who read this forum who are just chomping at the bit for an opportunity to criticize me personally or my department. Eventually you will have your opportunity I am sure. We all make mistakes and we all have areas in which we can improve.
SO, go for it when your opportunity arises...I won't cry, I promise...

A well worded reply. Good news is that someone had the correct information to explain what was going on. Bad news is that an explanation was necessary. We are all here to learn and share, not to be second guessed by people with no understanding of local geography, dispatch protocols, or equipment. It's getting a little old to read time and again how certain members disect every IA for precise times and raise questions that insinuate that things were not done correctly.

So.... this guy struck a nerve or two. What happened to all of the guys who always cry about this being an open forum for discussion? Yeah, maybe the guy had a score to settle for some reason that none of us will ever know, and it is unfair to criticize a fill the boot event, but can anyone honestly sit out there and say that they have never had any of this kind of stuff happen in their house? C'mon guys, as many of you are so fond of saying, "QTIP"

A well worded reply. Good news is that someone had the correct information to explain what was going on. Bad news is that an explanation was necessary. We are all here to learn and share, not to be second guessed by people with no understanding of local geography, dispatch protocols, or equipment. It's getting a little old to read time and again how certain members disect every IA for precise times and raise questions that insinuate that things were not done correctly.

A well worded reply. Good news is that someone had the correct information to explain what was going on. Bad news is that an explanation was necessary. We are all here to learn and share, not to be second guessed by people with no understanding of local geography, dispatch protocols, or equipment. It's getting a little old to read time and again how certain members disect every IA for precise times and raise questions that insinuate that things were not done correctly.

Excellent job Croton Falls, seems like a quick knockdown, and use of the tankers, could you elaborate, on the use of the tankers, since many Northern Communities rely on them. Excellent job.

Seth- Your site, your rules. However, there may be a point coming in the not too distant future when the line is crossed to the point of ridiculousness. I happened to be at the structure fire this past weekend in Lagrange (Dutchess County). From my vantage point, I saw no fewer than 5 people walking around with cameras and various FD related articles of clothing on. These ranged from one with a zoom lens camera who stood up on the road (long driveway to the structure), to several guys who slogged through the snow and the woods to get closer shots. One guy even had his 10 year old (+/-) son with him. Both had cameras strapped around their neck. There is a value and a benefit to fire photography, I won't argue with that, but the scene that I witnessed yesterday was disturbing. Here's someone standing in the street with their house a total loss, and guys are all over the place making a photographic record of their painful experience. Seemed a little bit much.
This incident was not on a well-travelled street, it was a back country road. There was a tanker relay going on and the area surrounding the scene was already crowded with vehicles, personnel, etc. Did we really need four or five more people milling around in the way of the tanker shuttle, or parking their cars, even if down the street, making a tight fit for a tanker even more so? C'mon guys. If it's in your neighborhood, that's one thing, but if it's four districts away, do everyone a favor and stay out of the way. My two cents.

Seth- Your site, your rules. However, there may be a point coming in the not too distant future when the line is crossed to the point of ridiculousness. I happened to be at the structure fire this past weekend in Lagrange (Dutchess County). From my vantage point, I saw no fewer than 5 people walking around with cameras and various FD related articles of clothing on. These ranged from one with a zoom lens camera who stood up on the road (long driveway to the structure), to several guys who slogged through the snow and the woods to get closer shots. One guy even had his 10 year old (+/-) son with him. Both had cameras strapped around their neck. There is a value and a benefit to fire photography, I won't argue with that, but the scene that I witnessed yesterday was disturbing. Here's someone standing in the street with their house a total loss, and guys are all over the place making a photographic record of their painful experience. Seemed a little bit much.
This incident was not on a well-travelled street, it was a back country road. There was a tanker relay going on and the area surrounding the scene was already crowded with vehicles, personnel, etc. Did we really need four or five more people milling around in the way of the tanker shuttle, or parking their cars, even if down the street, making a tight fit for a tanker even more so? C'mon guys. If it's in your neighborhood, that's one thing, but if it's four districts away, do everyone a favor and stay out of the way. My two cents.