Dinosaur

You know this is what I hate about the fire service. Which way do we want it? Do you want to be dedicated professional firefighters who don't receive a paycheck or do you want to be well intentioned neighbors who may or may not be able to put out the fire or rescue a loved one who don't receive a paycheck.
It can't be both ways. You can't demand equal treatment on the one hand while you're saying don't they understand we're volunteers and don't want to show up at BS calls.
Are they clueless or is your FD clueless about public relations. If people think that the FD is staffed it's your job to tell them otherwise.
I'm so tired of the complaints about being treated differently because you're volunteer and then demanded that you be treated differently because you're volunteer. Do it right, do it professionally, do it promptly and it won't matter whether you're paid or not.

You know this is what I hate about the fire service. Which way do we want it? Do you want to be dedicated professional firefighters who don't receive a paycheck or do you want to be well intentioned neighbors who may or may not be able to put out the fire or rescue a loved one who don't receive a paycheck.
It can't be both ways. You can't demand equal treatment on the one hand while you're saying don't they understand we're volunteers and don't want to show up at BS calls.
Are they clueless or is your FD clueless about public relations. If people think that the FD is staffed it's your job to tell them otherwise.
I'm so tired of the complaints about being treated differently because you're volunteer and then demanded that you be treated differently because you're volunteer. Do it right, do it professionally, do it promptly and it won't matter whether you're paid or not.

You know this is what I hate about the fire service. Which way do we want it? Do you want to be dedicated professional firefighters who don't receive a paycheck or do you want to be well intentioned neighbors who may or may not be able to put out the fire or rescue a loved one who don't receive a paycheck.
It can't be both ways. You can't demand equal treatment on the one hand while you're saying don't they understand we're volunteers and don't want to show up at BS calls.
Are they clueless or is your FD clueless about public relations. If people think that the FD is staffed it's your job to tell them otherwise.
I'm so tired of the complaints about being treated differently because you're volunteer and then demanded that you be treated differently because you're volunteer. Do it right, do it professionally, do it promptly and it won't matter whether you're paid or not.

For FD members with duplicative, redundant and extravagant apparatus, equipment, and stations to be so critical for the painting of some police cars is really disingenuous.
The PD has as much right to paint their vehicles as the FD's do. What's the difference?

For FD members with duplicative, redundant and extravagant apparatus, equipment, and stations to be so critical for the painting of some police cars is really disingenuous.
The PD has as much right to paint their vehicles as the FD's do. What's the difference?

You're simplifying your example to make it suit your argument. Yes, Mrs. Smith calls 911 and gets a response. In a full-time, career department she gets (using your example) two engines and a truck with 10-12 FF's and at least a couple of officers in six minutes all of whom are fully-qualified interior firefighters capable of performing all of the duties expected of them at a fire scene. In the volunteer response, depending on the time of day and day of week you get two engines and a truck with a couple of drivers, a couple of exterior FF, a couple of interior FF and maybe (if they're not at work) an officer in 12-15 minutes.
I'm not saying all agencies have this problem. I'm saying that there is no "standard" and there are people running around calling themselves firefighters who aren't. They can't fight fires and they have minimal training.
I know that not everyone has LOSAP but those that do receive compensation so there is a cost. It is disingenuous to claim that volunteer FD's with LOSAP or other compensation to members do not have personnel costs. I moved to a volunteer community and almost 1/3 of their budget is for LOSAP. That is just one example but nonetheless, it is a cost.
What are the fitness standards in the volunteer fire service? Again, I'm not saying that all career guys are Joe Buff but there is a standard and they have to meet that standard to be hired and to complete their training. Some jobs require them to maintain it too. There is no comparable standard in the volunteer sector.
Please don't confuse me with someone who is anti-volunteer. I'm just anti-hypocrisy.

Didn't officially implement it, huh? Is that because it is asking for trouble?
How about sending the cops to check and advise if there's a fire. Wait, we've complained about that over the years and hate that idea. So instead of sending the cop who's already dressed, in the car, and on the road we'll wait for someone to get out of bed, dressed, drive to the fire house, and then drive to the scene to find out if it is really a fire. God I'm glad I retired. Stupid policies like this are going to cost somebody their lives one day.
As bnechis has said: solve the problem.
If you want to be a firefighter you have to take the BS as well as the real "jobs". Do it 100% or don't do it at all.

For FD members with duplicative, redundant and extravagant apparatus, equipment, and stations to be so critical for the painting of some police cars is really disingenuous.
The PD has as much right to paint their vehicles as the FD's do. What's the difference?

For FD members with duplicative, redundant and extravagant apparatus, equipment, and stations to be so critical for the painting of some police cars is really disingenuous.
The PD has as much right to paint their vehicles as the FD's do. What's the difference?

For FD members with duplicative, redundant and extravagant apparatus, equipment, and stations to be so critical for the painting of some police cars is really disingenuous.
The PD has as much right to paint their vehicles as the FD's do. What's the difference?

You know this is what I hate about the fire service. Which way do we want it? Do you want to be dedicated professional firefighters who don't receive a paycheck or do you want to be well intentioned neighbors who may or may not be able to put out the fire or rescue a loved one who don't receive a paycheck.
It can't be both ways. You can't demand equal treatment on the one hand while you're saying don't they understand we're volunteers and don't want to show up at BS calls.
Are they clueless or is your FD clueless about public relations. If people think that the FD is staffed it's your job to tell them otherwise.
I'm so tired of the complaints about being treated differently because you're volunteer and then demanded that you be treated differently because you're volunteer. Do it right, do it professionally, do it promptly and it won't matter whether you're paid or not.

I wish your statement was true. There are many differences besides payroll and pensions and they were like a cancer in my department for years creating animosity between the paid guys and volunteers. I know that they still exist today so you're either naive or in denial.
Disparate levels of training, widely varying levels of commitment, poor accountability of volunteers, varying levels of fitness, etc. are all differences between paid and volunteer.
You cannot compare FF 1 class to a career academy and claim they're equal.
And just to be accurate, there are pension costs in a lot of volunteer agencies. LOSAP programs cost money and are the volunteer equivalent of a pension.
We should demand equal training and promote more combination departments to insure that those who need it can get it. The people stuck in the anti-career or anti-volunteer camps are nothing but problems.

For FD members with duplicative, redundant and extravagant apparatus, equipment, and stations to be so critical for the painting of some police cars is really disingenuous.
The PD has as much right to paint their vehicles as the FD's do. What's the difference?

Want to solve the problem about inadequate daytime responses in VFD's and VAC's?
Dispatch every fire call as a working structure fire and every EMS call as an extrication. Voila, problem solved. You'll be tripping over people.
God I'm glad I retired!

Didn't officially implement it, huh? Is that because it is asking for trouble?
How about sending the cops to check and advise if there's a fire. Wait, we've complained about that over the years and hate that idea. So instead of sending the cop who's already dressed, in the car, and on the road we'll wait for someone to get out of bed, dressed, drive to the fire house, and then drive to the scene to find out if it is really a fire. God I'm glad I retired. Stupid policies like this are going to cost somebody their lives one day.
As bnechis has said: solve the problem.
If you want to be a firefighter you have to take the BS as well as the real "jobs". Do it 100% or don't do it at all.

You know this is what I hate about the fire service. Which way do we want it? Do you want to be dedicated professional firefighters who don't receive a paycheck or do you want to be well intentioned neighbors who may or may not be able to put out the fire or rescue a loved one who don't receive a paycheck.
It can't be both ways. You can't demand equal treatment on the one hand while you're saying don't they understand we're volunteers and don't want to show up at BS calls.
Are they clueless or is your FD clueless about public relations. If people think that the FD is staffed it's your job to tell them otherwise.
I'm so tired of the complaints about being treated differently because you're volunteer and then demanded that you be treated differently because you're volunteer. Do it right, do it professionally, do it promptly and it won't matter whether you're paid or not.

I understand this thread is like Deja Vu. My personal goal is to make EMS in this county, a reliable, well oiled machine before I die. A VERY long term goal of mine. Fire in this county could use a little help too, but lets admit it, EMS is a joke. I admit that EMTBravo is probably not the best place to try and get this accomplished at, but you need to at least start somewhere, gather a group of individuals and actually get something rolling. What better place to start then right here with the conglomerate of emergency providers from around the area.
I've laid low after posting this topic, just to see where it goes and let other roll with it. Like the Capt and others have said, jumping into a massive MCI drill with every agency from the county spells out disaster. Like any other training, start with the basics and work up to professional level. Some agencies have difficulty staging with their own 1-2 ambulances in an area where they can easily leave the scene once the patient is loaded. Start with that, and scene security/accountability, and maybe we can move up to including 3 or 4 other agencies at another time. Once that comes as naturally as pouring milk into your cereal, then we can move up to a larger scale incident.
I think the one thing that everyone who's commented so far can agree on is that the status quo is not acceptable in this county for EMS. It is possible that the only way to actually get some agencies to change their ways, would be to involve the press, take out ads in the paper, and billboards on the side of the road and post facts. Maybe then a fire would get lit under the rear ends of certain individuals to change. Other then that, talking about it amongst ourselves generally yields zero advancement or progression. Getting the public involved and letting them know, "You have a very good chance you'll be waiting 20-30 minutes for an ambulance during your heart attack," or "If your bus crashes right now, we have 30 ambulances around the area that we own, but we can only effectively staff 5 of them total," might entice some public outcry for change.
Handling this in house and promoting positive change without involving the public would be the best course of action obviously, since John Q who has 0 idea about emergency service would offer their 2 cents on every little thing. So before some large scale event happens in this county, why not actually sit down and come up with a realistic plan of action? Make some progressive change that a majority of agencies can agree with, and bring it to the County legislator. Tell them what we'd like to accomplish, and see if it can get done. Will it be one of the most massive undertakings in this counties history, absolutely. But what better time to start then right now, by being assertive, rather then reactive?

Sonny, you have a lot to learn. About a lot of things.
It is clear you dont give a crap...about the facts.
Size of a district and call volume do factor in to the numbers and types of vehicles required. You claim that it costs 20,000 to keep 10 emergency vehicles on the road. I bet the savings from not using an engine on every EMS run is more than 20,000 so theyre actually saving money. That included the chiefs cars and the chiefs do much more than just EMS calls too.
I doubt the fire district pays $4.15 a gallon. Theyre tax exempt and probably buy on state contract or bid it like every other municipality so the cost is far less.

Damn straight FF can be held liable for their actions.
Liability can reach far above and far below the chief or IC whatever their rank. From a legal standpoint a lot of people can be liable so the prudent course is training, training, training and adherence to your agency policies and procedures. They're going to ask what your ventilation policy is and ask you to produce it. When you say you dont have one theyre going to make you look stupid or incompetent or both on the stand even though most agencys probably dont have a written policy on ventilation.

Do you seriously doubt the benefit of getting an injured patient to a hospital quickly? What good are we going to do keeping them in the street?
Now we do the same thing for MI and stroke. Crowley may have been advancing his agenda but medevacs proved themselves in Viet Nam and Korea.

Nope, its just as stupid to hire a guy on overtime to drive a truck in a parade when their first-due companies are understaffed all year long.
Are there still departments that take a front line piece out of service for a week before the "big parade" to clean, wash, wax, polish, shine it?
Do these "work details" count for LOSAP credit? Why?
Don't try to tell me we dont do stupid stuff like this. Ive lived it.

Our national deficit gets hashed, rehashed, and beaten to death every year. Doesn't seem like we have found a solution for that yet either so I guess we should just give up dialogue about it? Talking about something isn't solving a problem but its a means with which to start the ball rolling in order to effect change. What I think are some fairly egregious breaches of the public trust have been discussed here and for the most part everyone seems to either find no fault with it or wishes to turn a blind eye and hope it will either go away or someone else will deal with it. Well change comes from within and if you really care about the job you are supposed to be doing then maybe you should get involved in the discussion. Not only here but maybe the next time you are at the firehouse and everyone is getting ready for the parade. Maybe you may want to interrupt someone from shining the tires and say, "hey, who and what is going to be here while everyone else is 25 minutes away?" Especially if you plan on staying back, because you don't want to be the one standing there holding your hat trying to explain to a taxpayer why a fire in their garbage can that should have been out in minutes is now the Great Dustbin Conflagration of 2011. I understand staffing in the volunteer service is tough, and you'd be hard put to come by a district that can meet NFPA standards 24/7. I also understand that for the most part we all try to do our best to remedy this situation and whether many of you like to admit it or not we all know its a problem. My real problem with parades is that when we already know there is a problem, many of us actively take part in making it worse, and even if its just for a few days a year, thats too many. If you really want to go to parades that badly why don't you get several departments together, hash out how man guys each department can spare without compromising staffing( at least not any worse than a normal day), acquire a parade rig (I am sure one of the departments you band together with at least has a spare if not an antique), and all march together. For those of you who want to bring company pride and respect into this, company pride isn't something you can be awarded by a judge for walking down the street. Its not something the public is going to judge you on or give to you. Its the respect you're going to get from other companies and departments who see you doing your job and doing it well.

This is a ridiculous statement. What you are referring to is a combination department, not a career department. The career member in question was almost certainly directed to drive the apparatus to the parade by his volunteer "superiors", who very probably refer to him (with intent and purpose) as "driver", not "Firefighter".
Kudos to the many level headed, volunteers who care about their community and have had the courage to criticize in this thread the disgraceful practice of taking apparatus out of their district for a parade.
I do have an agenda about lots of issues. One of my issues (concerns) is the ridiculous and hypocritical practice of bringing apparatus to parades outside of the district. I hear constantly about the need for funding and incentives to recruit to fill the diminishing ranks of volunteer firefighters who will "save the community the enormous cost of a paid fire department" (btw always using the word "paid" as opposed to "career"...this too is done with intent and purpose)...It is also incessantly and inanely regurgitated that "volunteers and career guys are the same and provide the same level of service"...The practice of bringing apparatus and a large percentage of members to parades outside district flies directly in the face of these statements.
It is apparent that this is a legitimate issue and it is not unfair basing of volunteer by career members. Many volunteer firefighters are ethical and have common sense enough to realize that this archaic practice no longer has a place in the fire service if "we", yes "we" (career and volunteer) take the oaths we have sworn to our community's seriously. Many volunteer firefighters have stated so in this thread and in other threads previously...
Are we beating a dead horse? Absolutely not! The problem still exists! Any avenue available to expose this problem for what it is should be taken. Many people outside of the fire service are unaware of this situation and many inside of the fire service are complacent and / or resistant to change. So, those of us who have an agenda will repeat our mantra...most others will remain on the sidelines, some may feel inspired to join in and speak up for positive change, and of course we will always have those individuals who will rationalize, attack the messenger, or blame shift.
Eventually though, apparatus in out of district parades will go the way of horse drawn engines, wooden ladders, and pullup rubber boots (Lord, how I miss those!)
Hopefully, the discarding of this practice will happen as the result of rational, forward thinking fire service leaders and not as a consequence of a high- profile tragedy.

I have just realized what is wrong with the discussions on this board. It's not that everyone doesn't agree on the solutions to our problems, rather, it appears we're not even all reading the same posts!

Yeah, they consolidated in the movie but here in New York they're still fighting consolidation so it's still F&B and Unity around here. Pathetic.