SmokeyJoe

They have not responded to a single fire in over 30 years, but every year they got 2% funds because at some point prior to the 1980's they did.
A few years ago they were changed to a CERT team. but I guess they kept the parade function for fun.

no i wouldnt waste my time drinking and walking around acting like your a hero

how about stay in district and protect it like you signed up for instead of another dumb parade
Domenick

Yeah it would have made a huge difference. You would have had someone who didn't win a popularity contest actually in the position and who was trained to an exact level.

While I am not making excuses for his actions, I do know that in the 80's & 90's in more than 1 Westchester combo dept. that only staffed "paid drivers" if the "paid man" ever left the pump panel, he got put on dept charges. In otherwords, if he arrived at a fire and the volunteers had yet to arrive and he stretched the line past the front door, he was yelled at because "only the volunters are allowed to do it". I saw this on more than one occassion and I know of it in more than one dept.
Once that s*** developed, I'm not surprised the "union" mic stuff came next.

We were sitting in station 3's kitchen watching the news of the fire in Hackensack before the collapse and we could not believe that they did not know it was a truss building. We saw that is what it was and how advanced the fire was. I remember the descussion that they needed to backout and then it collapsed.
I will never forget.
If you and your dept. did not learn the painful lessons of that day, then shame on you!
If you do not train every member in building construction and how fire effects it (and how it effects fire) you did not learn the leasons of that day.

If you do not do building inspections or at least walk throught and document hazards you did not learn the leasons of that day.

If you do not have seperate fireground and dispatch channels (and use them everytime) you did not learn the leasons of that day.

If you do not do accountability (so you know where your firefighters are operating) you did not learn the leasons of that day.

if you do not operate a command post with enough people to track resources and be able to hear all radio traffic (because the chief is trying to multi task to many jobs) you did not learn the leasons of that day.

If you do not evaluate & reevaluate conflicting condition reports you did not learn the leasons of that day.

If you exceed proper span of control you did not learn the leasons of that day.

If you do not stage tactical reserves you did not learn the leasons of that day.
In Westchester, many of these lessons were never learned or they have been forgotten.
I will never forget.

Geez, were full of good ideas. Why don't we get the department to buy us beer, go to parades, and get drunk in uniform. Hey wait a minute: am I in the wrong thread (or maybe advocating booster reels is just as dumb an idea)

Lets get this strait: we are actually discussing booster lines. Really? Cmon people, when will you learn?

I'm not riled up. My point is that you just can't put people in pigeonholes (old-young...short/tall). And thanks, Willy D. for saving me a lot of time. I was going to write almost the same post as you did but now I don't have to.
Why do we "smarter" old guys hate booster lines? Simple: they are heavy and useless. Some day a fuse will blow and when you push that hose reel button nothing will happen. Let me know how you fared with your 150' of booster line.
Bangor ladders are a different story. The reason they are gone is because it takes six men and an officer to raise one. How many guys are rolling out the door on your truck company.
And us with the rubber coats and roll down boots! Guess why you are now fully encapsulated in your PPV? The smarter old guys said there must be a better way to protect ourselves and keep the brothers from dying. So now you are fully encapsulated and protected. Have Firefighter deaths dropped off over the years?
Looks to me like today's Firefighters might want to take a look at the improvements we old guys gave you and think about some improvements that might help your and future generations. How about starting with "Now that I am fully encapsulated and cant feel my environment, how do I know when I went too far?"
And for spin-the-wheel, I am sorry, Mike. This is not intended to be personal in any way. You just happened to be in the way when my rant started.
It's an unwritten rule that every Fire Officer is required to throw a conniption fit twice a year, no more, no less. Think about that one. Picture the Officers you know who either throw too many fits or not enough, and rate them as an officer. Let me know what you came up with.

The last engines we bought with boosters was in 1988 (when they were retired the motors had all been burnedout, the intake valves leaked and the floor under them was rotting.
We switched to a front mounted trash line and up till 2010 thats what all engines used. When we were replacing Engine 21 all of the crews said we do not use the trashline. We stretch what ever is needed from the rear bed and hook it up. Since that is what we will do at all fires we get better and better at it and in effect it is training.
We did add I-zone hooks, so if you need to get off a scene quick (like from a highway) or the hose is dirty and you do not want to pack it, it can be quickly looped up and taken care of back at the fire house.

Now that engine is busier than most of the the commenters (who favor boosters for the few calls) combined.

I find that the booster reel argument is pushed mainly by the older generation. The same guys who still think pull up boots are just as effective as bunker gear. (Disclaimer: I'm an old guy, and have deviant thoughts like this from time to time, but I'm also a realist in embracing the future of the fire service and supporting the new younger line officers as they come up the line.)
That said....my department bought 2 new Engines in 2010 and 2 in 2011. NONE came with a booster reels. First time in our history that the Engines did not come with them. During the planning and layout for the Engines the argument came up. The older guys said most of the reasons people came up with having them as some did in this thread. But at the end of the day we realized that bumper mounted 1 3/4 trash lines can accomplish all the things that booster hose can and better. Plus the mistake of ever using the "red" line for anything more then washing off tools could never be made. (think it wont happen, your not living in the real world)
Yeah it may be easier to push a button then "pack" hose, but that's what the "new" guys are for heheheh.

A 20 yearold chief, drinking on duty, beer at parades...this would never happen here in Westchester would it?! ;-)

Geez, were full of good ideas. Why don't we get the department to buy us beer, go to parades, and get drunk in uniform. Hey wait a minute: am I in the wrong thread (or maybe advocating booster reels is just as dumb an idea)

Been my argument for years, As Chief the good old beer machine went for a ride, yet after I got out from office it returned, I am with you 100% there is no need for it to be there and it's one of the reason why I stopped going to parades, it sad to see a bunch of drunk firefighters making a spectacle of themselves and the departments they serve.

Here's some logic that is similar to the pro-booster reel logic that I've been seeing in this thread.
We should also buy a few steamers and horse teams. You never know if there will be another gasoline shortage.
Of course we would have to add a chemical engine to our arsenal because it takes a while to build up a head of steam.

Will someone try to explain me why drinking is EVER allowed at ANY firehouse? And don't give me that camaraderie BS...

Much of what you wrote is valid, but some of these items are not:
"5 - Use as a secondary line for a car / truck / container fire by attaching a SG or CG nozzle using either a piercing attachment or a "pinapple wand" to get into those hard to reach areas (before a hood or an opening can be created). Again, doesn't take the place of the main attack lines, it an added resource."
While nice to have the special nozzle, why not have that 2nd line with enough power to back up the primary if something goes wrong (like the gas tank drops)
"7 - DECON and REHAB for your firefighters, nothing like having a small line to cool you off on a hot day or to wash down your dirty gear. Again, freeing up another larger line or main discharge."
Not for decon and "freeing up a line or discharge" I have never seen an engine run out of discharges, most today have 7-9 (4-6 main ones)
"8 - small propane tank leakes - less than 20 lbs tanks (adjust the nozzle to a good fog patter and disipate that LPG)"
Maybe you should calculate the potential btu output from oneof these before you go in with way too small of a flow
"9 - Use as an invesitgation line - The FM is trying to find the cause of a fire, got a few very small hot-spots or needs to wash down a small are without having the great pressure from a 1 3/4" line, the booster is your line. GRANTED it should not be the only line present, you should still have a main attack line present just in case! You have the poewer of both."
If the pressure is too much in the 1 3/4" line - Gate down. because of the reduced FL you can use less pressure (thus less volume) and get the jop done. If the booster is being justified for conviniance most of the time, how come here you are adding an extra line to do the job? thats more work not less.
Even when we had boosters, we did not do this, because we already had a line in the building. why clean and pack 2 lines.

"Final extinguishment of a smoldering engine compartment fire." So you pack up the 1 3/4" line that you used to get to that point and then pull the booster to finish the job?
"Hitting some hot spots found during the investigation phase." Same as above
"As a protection line for the engine for a short period of time while pumping a fire." If you need to protect your $500,000+ engine because you parked it too close, you need a real line
"We've used it in several situations where we previously would've used a can. A lot easier to put a little water back in the tank back at the station than servicing the can." Saves a whole minute
"We get called upon to "wash down" some public areas at times. Using regular handlines, we'd often have to refill at least once to complete the job. Just the other week my engine washed down the stage area of an outdoor "bandshell" style venue with less than 200 gallons of water." How is it that you use an extra 300 gallons with the regular line? If you put out more water you complete the washdown in less time and the amount should be the same.

No.
For gross decon it is not used as it does not flow enough
for technical decon & mass decon it has the wrong size couplings to match the equipment

Will someone try to explain me why drinking is EVER allowed at ANY firehouse? And don't give me that camaraderie BS...

A 20 yearold chief, drinking on duty, beer at parades...this would never happen here in Westchester would it?! ;-)

All OSHA "standards" are laws. 29 Stands for "Labor" and CFR stands for "Code of Federal Regulations". Everyone of their regulations (or laws) is inforceble on non-governmental employees in all 50 states. 25 States are "plan states" and recieve federal funding to do the OSHA funding. In exchange for the funding they must agree to enforce the OSHA Laws on all "employeers". In NY, NJ & CT. they modified this and the states only enforce the regulations on governmental "employeers". The New York State Department of Labor - Public Employee Safety & Health (PESH) is the agency that is charged with enforcing these laws.
The NYS courts have long ruled that volunteer firefighters are considered "employees"of their departments because they are "covered" by workers compensation insurance (which is required by law).
The law exists the problem is PESH is streched so thin that they only show up if there is a complaint or serious injury/death.
And while NFPA "standards" are not laws. The NYS courts acknowledge them as if they were in civil litigation and in at least 1 criminal case of wrongful death.

Captain Ellson was more than a great fire officer: he was good people. RIP.

Or it was just another abuse of RLS from yet another commercial outfit.

Not always. Up to a point, it is actually more cost effective to cover vacancies using overtime.
With 400 vacancies and people making more than $100K in OT, I'm pretty confident that they've past that point.
Additionally, in today's economic and political environment you can't rule out the possibility that the City Administration is intentionally not filling the vacancies and running up the OT costs. OT costs soar, the fingers start pointing at the "greedy" (union) firefighters, the public gets worked up over the perception that it's the Union's fault and then the City tries to use this as leverage to make cuts in manpower, unit staffing, fire stations, benefits, etc.