firemoose827

As an EX Officer...(yup, lost my population contest last monday night and I am a black hat again), I look at it like this; as I deploy the teams to do certain jobs, whether its stretch a line, vent the roof, do a search or whatever, I look to see that they do it correctly. Did they strectch the line the right path and the right size hose? Did they vent appropriate for the size of fire (Pop a few windows for small contained fires or place the right sized hole in the right location on the roof)? When extricating someone did they stabilize the vehicle right? Did they assess for dangers before beginning? Did they protect the patient from further harm? Did they use all PPE and use the tools safely?

Its different for each officer, but I agree with the above comment; there was a time when chief was a respected term, they ran their fireground like it was supposed to be run and dished out punishment when and where it was due without worrying if it would "offend"someone and make them quit the department or file law suits against them...I saw a fire chief from a mutual aid department once that I respected well enough before this incident and a hell of a lot more after-take a guy that was putting up a ladder upside down and backwords and start ripping into him right there in front of his department and ours. The guy learned a lesson that day and he never did it again. We need leaders who will do whats right for the department and the community who rely on us to help them. Not a leader that will pamper their members to earn their "votes" come time for the population contest (Elections).

Bottom line; a "Good Job" is one where the tactics used were appropriate, the teams acted with safety in mind, the incident was not allowed to grow any more and affect any more people, and there was no injuries to anyone, and all equipment and members made it back to the station in one piece. Good Job. Be Safe out there.

Rest In Peace Chief. My thoughts and prayers to the Tarrytowm FD and to Chief Browns family, both at home and at the firehouse.

I agree Syd and Andy, but with the inclusion of Firefighter II also.

The bottom line is that FF I is not adequate on its own for combat-ready interior firefighters. There should be no difference in training for career and volunteer, nor requirements to operate as interior or on a FAST unit. FF I, FF II, Survival, and FAST should all be minimum requirements here as they are in other jurisdictions.

I agree with most of what you are saying. My point, however, is that before even starting to worry about special operations, etc. we need to get our line firefighters better trained, better drilled, and better prepared. FAST training is very important but too many FDs are cutting corners and not spending enough time on the fundamentals.

FAST / RIT is not supposed to be a special op's resource or a special team, county team, select group of folks who are trained differently or to a higher level than other firefighters, etc. FAST / RIT skills are necessary for EVERY firefighter every bit as much as any other firefighting essential functions are. When a MAYDAY is transmitted, IMMEDIATE action by knowledgeable, skilled firefighters is required. FAST / RIT operations are often required very early on during an incident, obviously we all need to be ready to perform appropriately and immediately when a firefighter requires assistance due to entrapment or medical condition while in a hazardous location. FAST / RIT training absolutely needs to be a requirement for new firefighters prior to certification. Currently certified firefighters who are not FAST / RIT certified should be required to attend the course and become certified. Firefighting is not a game, a passtime or a hobby, it's about life and death. Those who don't see it that way need to find a different calling.

Amen...Amen...AMEN!!

We need the same training period...across the board...Im tired of seeing young FF's fresh out of FF1 get all cocky and arrogant and forget about traditions and experience. Just because you have FF1 doesnt mean you are ready to rock, something I have said for a while now. I am a level II FF but I got mine the old way; I had to take essentials, Fire Attack, FA II, ladder ops, haz mat, pump ops, and a bunch of others.

Training needs to improve...

My first department on Long Island had two companies; Engine and Ladder, the Rescue Squad was separate also. Each company had their line officers consisting of Captain, 1st and 2nd Lieutenant. They each had their own meetings with their line officers running each meeting, then their was the department meeting, presided over by the Chief, 1st and 2nd assistant cheifs, president, secretary and Treasurer with all companies present. They had their board of fire commissioners who reviewed the books and handled the administrative stuff, they approved any major purchases as well like trucks or new equipment.

Down their, each new member had to serve a one year term witht the rescue squad as well to help out and learn the EMS side of things, then they could either drop their membership or continue.

My department now is a Fire District, governed by the board of commissioners who have their own meetings monthly, open to the public where they discuss the building and grounds, equipment, any upcoming needs of the department which would affect the tax base, and have open discussion so the taxpayers can bitch I MEAN offer their opinions on things. The chief of department and rescue squad captain are required to attend these meetings to give reports on status of equipment and membership. Then we have our department meetings monthly presided over by a president, who mainly just upholds the by-laws and is the deciding vote in a tie for all department matters. Our president is also on the board of commisioners.

Rest In Peace Trooper Riley, thoughts and prayers to his family and fellow troopers/LEO's.

I have walked into an ER for a transport and have had the Doctor himself thrusting a large pile of paperwork at me and yelling "Here, he needs to be at XYZ hospital STAT just load and go!!!" Only brief minutes later the PT is requiring intubation, or they code. I always at least got the brief report from the nurses, which I trusted more then the docs at our local facility, and they knew what info I needed.

There was one time we walked into the trauma room of the ER for a transport and saw the MD about to attempt an intubation; this doc is a medical doc and is rarely in the ER and has not tubed someone in years mind you. I walked in and saw his hands shaking so bad the tube was whipping back and forth. I calmly told him to let go of the laryngoscope and step back. He looked at me and I sear he was about to pass out, he half smiled and handed it over. Took me less than 40 seconds to tube him and we were out the door with the nurse giving me the report as we wheeled out and loaded.

Always try and get a report so you at least know what is going on and what treatments you need to monitor enroute.

Could it be the lack of training volunteers recieve in that county is the reason that they are banned from the simulator? Perhaps they didn't meet a certain prerequisite.

I think I meant to say that all of the initial entry-level training was the same for career and volunteer

I see what HFD219 is saying, if the level of training the volunteers have is lower then the career, then I see why they would not let them kill- I MEAN use the simulator and end up getting hurt or worse.

If the initial training levels are the same, then yes, both should use it.

Another question is; Who owns the simulator? The county? The career department? I see what they are doing is necessary to keep less trained people from hurting themselves, until like you. myself and so many other volunteers want to see happen, the training standards become the same across the board for both. THEN I see no issue with either using the simulators. If you dont know what to look for, or what to do, than how can you safely use the training aids provided? I wouldnt even let MOST of my FF's go into any simulator until they get their training squared away and take FF1, FF Survival, and maybe FF2.

Stay Safe

I remember many moons ago. Westchester units going to the Pine Barrens of Suffolk County for a huge fire, this had all the markings of something we see in California,.the fire had enough gusto to jump wide six lane highways with huge center mediums, no place for folks with zero wildland fire training, this was not your local grass or leave fire, this was down right life threatening. There is no reason something similar couldn't happen again so training in this discipline would not be a bad idea.

This fire was in the 90's, it was right after I moved from Long Island to upstate NY and I remember wishing I was still there to help them. It jumped the Sunrise highway, which your are correct was 6 lanes wide, they had planned to use that as a natural fire line but it didnt work and they had to chase it.

Upstate we get the NYS Class, Wildland Firefighting, taught by DEC rangers. It is a very good class, but when I took it there was little to no hands on portion of the class. We went into a field and practiced "Attacking" the fire from the burnt side like your supposed to or from the flanks. He laid out marking tape on the field and labled the front, the flanks and the rear of the fire, and we learned briefly about digging fire lines. I also took the Wildland Search & Rescue class also taught by DEC and that was a great class too.

We dont train nearly enough with our brush truck, but we just got a new 4 wheeler so I am sure we will start to drill more with that (untill the magic wears off). We have a lot of brush fires too, primarily being farm land and forest.

We usually go through dispatch who has the capability to contact them direct or call them. Most chief officers have radios with the DPW freq on it and can talk direct with them but its not used too often.

I used to work DPW and I knew to go to the scene if they had a job in the winter, otherwise the super was in the office or had a scanner in his truck and would dispatch the closest plow to the scene if he heard of a fire in the area and we had a plow on scene before the dispatch even got a chance to pick up the phone.

Works better in small communities though I would imagine.

Probably because many members work for paid services which may or may not monitor this website, and those users may or may not intentionally or unintentionally say something their employer doesn't like.

I would say the same thing; it's not necessarily that people are "hiding", its that they want to participate in forums and discuss issues they see in the field at work, but since their supervisors monitor these forums they do not have the ability to post their real identity. I myself have just recently found out that some of the other members in my volly department have been following me closely here to see if I will say something negative about someone specifically so they can report me to the chief...I simply told them the same that remember585 said in his post; "My comments are my own and do not reflect my department." I am after all entitled to my opinion as long as its shared in a professional way with no crude or innapropriate insults or comments. But my name and location are accurate, and any who have PM'd me here with a request for my email has received it and I have even had a few phone conversations with some members to further discuss something we may have agreed/disagreed with each other about in the threads.

I feel that term needs to be thrown out.

We already have our level of response's out by my area, Im sure everyone uses something similar to this style dispatch system; Alpha response- Non-emergency BLS response, no lights or sirens, mostly for lift assists and cold/flu like symptoms. Bravo- Emergency BLS response such as broken bones, bleeding, trauma, lights and sirens. Charlie- Non emergent ALS call (Im not sure how many of them there are, but that's what our response guidelines have it as being). Delta- ALS emergency like chest pains, strokes, dyspnea and such. Echo- pulseless breathless patient, codes, basically everyone come thats close by. Why then do we need to say "Expedite"? I feel that if an EMT is dispatched to a BLS call only to arrive and find a code, they should simply ask for the call to be upgraded to an Echo response...plain and simple.

Use what you have and dont complicate things or do something that will make a rookies adrenaline go through the roof and cause an accident all because he/she heard "Expedite to the scene!!!" I have heard plenty of squads in my area simply call for the upgrade from Bravo to Charlie or Delta and its just as effective of getting the point across.

Same as fire calls; I have heard first responders such as PD or firefighters in POV arrive on scene and call for the FD to "Expedite" to the scene for possible entrapment...Just call the dispatch and ask them to advise all responding units that there is a possible victim unaccounted for. We all know as firefighters that a search should be done for every call anyway, so why say "expedite"?

Volunteer EMS agencies are quickly fading away. We have an ambulance sitting in our station with no one to run it. All of the EMT's are gone and we only have about 5 active members, drivers and attendants only. It has been out of service for a few months now and we go automatic MA for all calls. When we get a structure fire we tone out our neighboring department for both fire and ems assistance.

One of the largest departments in our county that averages 500-600 calls annually with 2 rigs even has trouble getting out. If not for the very dedicated captain/paramedic they have responding to all their calls they would turn-over more calls.

EMT Training is also difficult to go through for someone with a FT job and family obligations, it's not just firefighter 1 training thats hard to take. They could be away from their families for months, 2 nights a week, some saturdays spent in ER's and OR's or riding second on ambulances, and then afterwords having to keep up with CME's (depending on what level you are) every 6 months, meetings, drills, fundraisers...

I was a member of 2 separate organizations in my previous department where the EMS agency was a private organization separate from the fire department. I was an 18 year old EMT taking my EMT-CC class, Lieutenant in the EMS agency, taking fire classes left and right, going to two meetings a month and 2 drill nights a week, working bingo at 2 organizations on a weekly schedule for fund raising on top of responding to calls. That was rough too, when there was an MVA or fire I would respond with the FD and I told the EMS agency that the FD came first for me, if it was a straight EMS call I would respond with them, otherwise I was a firefighter.

Its tough to be a volunteer anything today...there is just no time in the day for someone with a FT job, maybe a PT side job, spouse, kids, dogs, cats, house to take care of, gold fish to feed...its not like it used to be where there was one bread winner in the house working only M-F 9-5 and had enough spare time to volunteer. You need to work 2-3 jobs just to barely scrape by in today's world and its killing the volunteer sectors. But once the community has to pay for a monthly career EMS agency to run calls maybe the tune will change but that will never happen...no one can afford career EMS, not around me anyway, they can barely run a decent highway department that plows with trucks held together with bondo and a prayer, with an old piece of metal roofing welded on as a plow blade and using a leaf blower as a snow blower...imagine having to pay a FT EMS crew 24/7 365????????

I honestly dont have an answer, but know for a fact that volunteer EMS is in danger if something is not done soon.

Look on amazon for defoggers. Two magnets one on the inside on on the out. Works awesome

Can you please explain this in more detail? Like how it works exactly? You just put a magnet on the inside and outside of your mask? Thats interesting, never heard of it and Im curious. Thanks.

Andrew, if your EMS shift causes you to cry - in pain or anything else - maybe you should also consider other possible professions. It's not going to get better when you're older and if you try to "suck it up" you'll wind up injured or just one of those nasty bastids in EMS we all shake our head about.

You're young! Explore other options before you find yourself a 45 year old with a bad back dreading every day at work.

Velcromedic is right buddy, you need to re-evaluate your career choice.

I worked ems for 12 years, and still volunteer since '92 and I have learned a few things. One of those things is what I need on my person and what I dont. In the beginning I carried the contents of a small BLS trauma bag on me, either in my pants pockets or coat or belt pouches...similar to a battle belt (or buff belt, however you see it).

At the end, I carried a scope around my neck, glove pouch always stocked with at least 2 pairs or more of gloves, pen light and shears in my BDU pocket. You dont need to carry anything else on your person. Make it a habbit to have a well stocked "First-In" bag with your BP equipment, suction, BVM's, airways, bandaging, and other essentials. When you get off the rig you grab that bag and go in.

I also knew a Paramedic in my volunteer squad who carried a "Buff Belt" with his trauma tools, CPR mask, "D" cell flashlight, even had an ammunition pouch that he held his airways and lube in...I stayed away from him.

As a "civilian" fire commissioner, I feel I must respond to this post. Although I have 25 years experience in emergency services, I am not a firefighter and know nothing regarding trucks or firefighting. I rely heavily on my fellow commissioners who are firefighters/Ex-Chiefs/Ex-FDNY.

You are probably asking, "what purpose do you serve then"? In my position on the Board, I handle the insurance and I am the LOSAP Administrator. As a former Treasurer of the District, I also help out with the fiscal responsibilities.

As said previously, we not only have to answer to the tax payers, we have to answer to NYS. We have an outside professional audit done every year which is forwarded to the State Comptroller's office.

To have a Board the consists of all "civilians" would be ridiculous. I know of a neighboring District that has a majority of "civilians" on their Board and they have been spending more money on "consultants" than anything else. The "consultants" should be your experienced members, not some "white collar" person who knows nothing about the fire service.

I am very glad that I have four very experienced members of our department sitting beside me.

GAW6, excellent post. I wanted to clarify something; I hope my comments did not offend anyone, they were simply made in haste with a lot of anger towords a few of our commissioners who are seemingly trying to turn our department into a business. They get mad when we dont turn a profit....and seem to not care that we have equipment needs. We have an ambulance that Im amazed even starts any more, and engine that failed pump test three times and they still throw money into it and hope it works, an old rescue truck held together with bondo and duct tape, a number of sets of gear about to go over the 10 year mark, a bunch of SCBA bottles that will need to be replaced soon...they just dont want to spend money where it is needed and complain about it. We cant provide the service we need to without this equipment but we cant explain that to some of these members because they have no emergency services experience, and its frustrating.

I am glad to see you work well with your board and that you understand these issues at least, members like you would be a welcome sight, its just some of the people I have to deal with that bothers me. Hope I did not offend anyone.

Stay Safe

Our commissioners report to the Town Supervisor but have ultimate control of the department being we are a fire district. We have commissioners meetings on the second monday of the month and any tax paying person in our district can attend and ask questions and hear about department issues. They have a say in where their money goes, like with our recent proposal to have our station remodeled with an addition built on. That was passed, but not without a ton of flak from the taxpayers at that monthly commissioners meeting. As acting chief that month, I got to field all of the angry questions and offer our reasoning behind the need for the work; basically trying to tell them that fitting 5 trucks and a UTV with trailer in a 3 bay station had its negative impacts on OSHA laws, and by sharing all of the pictures of our station that were used in the annual OSHA refresher training in our county and how it was a huge black eye to our department and a safety issue.

The commissioners were on board with it, but the taxpayers were not, they complained and felt we could make due with what we had and were not concerned with our safety issue (until their house burns down because one of our members gets run over by their own truck trying to get out of our cramped station).

My issue with them, is that most of ours are not even firefighters or have they ever been firefighters. They are voted on just like other town officials in November, so anyone can be nominated and voted in if they have the votes from the town taxpayers. Right now, only one of the 7 member board of commissioners is still an active firefighter/driver, another 2 have been members a while ago but are not currently, the others have no firefighting experience. Thats my only issue.

Thanks 38ff, at this point I would drop it off and pick it up just to get it done. Its real bad to have someone you did business with just disappear and not return your calls and leave a job undone....

Thanks for the info.

Hello guys, I just needed to ask if anyone knew of any near Albany NY that want to actually work. I have done business with one company in past few months but they dropped off the face of the earth and wont return my calls, and I need to finish a job testing 5 lengths that previously failed but need retest so we can pay off the company that re-coupled the hose for us.

Does anyone know of a reputable company that will help us out??? I need to find someone ASAP so any help or leads would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Being a former volunteer firefighter and a career firefighter for the last 23 years (an officer for the last 15), here is my take on it:

Being career does not make you any better than being volunteer. I know some volunteer departments in my old hometown (Dutchess County NY) where everyone is well certified and competent, and they show up very rapidly when the tones go off. Heck, some of those guys are better trained than the people I currently work with.

It all has to do with the following and applies to both volunteer and career departments:

Leadership -- if the department's leadership does not make sure that there is a means to get their membership trained and encourages it, the department will never be functional.

Membership -- if you can't get enough people to adequately staff the vehicles when called, then the department will not be functional.

Political Support -- if you can't get the support of your commissioners or supervising governmental entity, the department will not be functional.

Fire Prevention -- if the department or municipality doesn't take fire prevention seriously and does not have a good inspection program in place where property owners are held accountable, there will be fire safety issues.

I've seen terrible volunteer departments and I've seen terrible career departments. I've also seen great career departments and volunteer departments that would put most career departments to shame. I really don't think it has anything to do with volunteer vs. career as a whole, but the specific area in NJ.

I've seen many departments here in Florida go from volunteer to career and shut down/disband firehouses completely so they could pay the staff of 2 firefighters on an engine for each of the other stations covering a larger area. Yes, you have 100% assurance a unit will respond immediately, but you have less units and longer response times in those areas where the fire stations were shut down.

This is just my 2 cents.

Great post cap. This was the best response here hands down and I agree with you. I would love to see the day we all move forward and help each other instead of this crap back and forth all the time and never getting anywhere.

Its sad to admit but our leadership in my area is not the best (dept chiefs and line officers, the county coordinators are all great). Our "voting" for officers is more of a popularity contest then placing the right candidate in the position for reasons of training and experience, and its sad. Thats why a lot of departments fail though, the leadership is not what its supposed to be. I see it often, you ahve a group of well trained volunteers that show up and do what they can, but because the "leader" has no proper experience they end up looking bad. Who gets the blame? The department as a whole when it should be the leader.

Our department has to use it due to our manpower issue. Our first 2 trucks on scene have 4 people total (if all seats filled) 2 drivers and 2 firefighters. We have to wait a few minutes for more manpower to arrive in either the rescue or POV's or mutual aid. So we use the transitional style attack until we have enough help to safely attack with the 2-in-2-out OSHA requirement met. Provided there isnt any life safety in which case the 2 firefighters make entry for a search. Its one of the only tactics we can use unless we, by some miracle, are rolling up to a fire with 12 people like at a drill or meeting night.

Didnt FDNY work with NIST not too long ago in some aquired apartment buildings scheduled for demo to run some tests on this? I remember seeing a video on youtube not too long ago with a news story about it.

Granted all we have is a news story to work off of, but the story brings up several questions.

First the idea that the bodies may have been put there after the blaze or firefighters may have missed them. I know forensics is good but since the bodies were burned could they really tell if they were burned somewhere else?

Then there is the quote from the department spokesman, who said both "there was no indication anyone was inside" and "It’s a known location for squatters" those don't seem to be consistent to me.

I get that FDNY has to deal with this sort of command decision more than most department, older buildings, in bad repair, apparently abandoned, In no way am I saying that the IC made the wrong decision to make this an exterior attack. I do find the news coverage to be a little sensationalist (hoping there will be more to this story than there probably is) and the spokesman's choice of words to have been not what they could have been. I also don't think it is fair to even speculate that the bodies were missed by firefighters when there was no interior search, no matter the reasons. Something never looked for is not generally considered to have been missed and using that phrase really makes a good job by FDNY seem like a bad job.

Good fire investigators would be able to tell if they died in this house or not...if the house was still as-is at the time the fire was extinguished, but as we see here, the house was already being demolished. But there are ways to tell, especially when you do a good autopsy.

They said in the story that the one guy was only burned on his head, I believe if they were in that house their bodies would have been mostly consumed. But like you said we only have the story to go by. Hope we get more details soon as the investigation continues.

I am looking for a decent deneral purpose TIC. Im not looking for "TV broadcast" abilities, or 200 different colors on the screen breaking down temperatures into 1/10th of a degree for hazmat spills.

I just want a basic, bombproof and reasonably priced TIC for general firefighting use.. I am checking out the Scott Eagle Attack currently.

Any suggestions/info?

I can vouch for the Eagle Attack camera, we just recently purchased one a year ago, and its perfect for general firefighting use and also has enough to use for search and rescue if needed and other applications. Its small, charger mounts on truck with spare battery, its easy to use and idiot proof, and very rugged; we had one guy crawl on the floor with the TIC in his hand putting his weight on the unit as he crawled then told him to focus on an object, the image was still clear and the unit held. We have used it a few times already; once at an accident scene where there was no vic in the truck. We used the camera on the seats and saw that only the drivers seat was warm so we new we had one vic and we found him with the TIC in the field lying in a tree line hiding because he was drunk, had a busted ankle but he got about 250 yards from the wreck before the camera and the search dog found him. Great little camera. Highly reccomend them. If you need a gas meter too, use the Scott Protege 4 gas meter; another perfect unit for general use.

Good luck with the shopping, hope this helps.

Moose

Rest In Peace brother, it was good to see you had a warm welcome home fit for the hero you are. Thoughts and prayers to his family and friends in their time of need.

Please look at this image, I have used it before and feel its time to use it again, this is how I feel about the matter simply stated; Brotherhood MEANS Brotherhood, no parameters or exceptions, I feel egos have gotten in the way of brotherhood and true family.

Stay Safe all.

And you my friend are a man who has no values. You have no clue what it means to feed your family from your trade, regardless if it is hanging sheetrock running conduit or leveling pipe. So your willingness to 'help' others is in fact NOT helping anyone but yourself and your ego, and that is a FACT!

I may have started this topic but lets not forget I am also a Moderator. Lets keep the personal jabs out of the discussion and let each other share their opinions and beliefs, this is un-professional to say the least and these type of personal attacks have no merrit either in this discussion or this site. No more personal insults or warnings will go out.

Please carry on the informative part of this discussion and keep personal insults out of it. Thank you.