Monty

if you are listening to the tape, i can decode some of the portable numbers
there used to be 10 engines 1 to 11 with no # 3. the officer from the engine has a 3 digit radio id starting with a 1. 101 is engine 1's officer.
there used to be 4 ladders. the ladder officers radio id is 20_.
there used to be 3 paramedic rescues,, non transporting, {just like johnny and roy} housed with engine companies. their portables start with a 3.
the heavy rescue, which ran a lot including all working fires, is probably what is heard as rescue 1 with a portable starting with a 4.
when i left albany years ago there was a firehouse on delaware ave (cross st referred to for this fire) which housed engine 9, rescue 9, and ladder 4. these were probably first due.
obviously things have changed in regard to battalion chiefs; they used to staff bat 1 and bat 2. there was also an in-the-rounds driver for the one deputy chief who would be called out for all 2-baggers. in the days before cell phones the driver was still supposed to know where to find the deputy, on or off duty.

Good thing i didn't mention about the (FIT 5). That could start a firestorm?

Its not about "never happening again" Most home owners do not have a clue about fire protection, if the FD did not advise them that they need it and also that the insurance company will reduce there premiums if they put it in who will tell tham?
How do you expect the homeowner to be proactive about fire protection if the fire dept isnt?
I few years back I was visiting my Mom in No. California. They have no hydrants and the closest water source is a very poor hydrant system 2 miles away, plus local FD & CDF have Tenders (tankers out there are airplanes). They have a 35,000 gallon swiming pool, but its to far off the road to get a truck close. The pool was drained for work and they had a backhoe digging up their driveway.
I told my mom I was going to "fix" things and it might cost her $1,000 but it would be worth it. She was not sure about this idea. I went to the local building supply and got 250' x 6" PVC pipe and we dug a trench from the pool to the curb. I called the local FD and asked about thread size they used, then called Kotchek and got the strainer and dry hydrant parts shipped next day. When it was done they said that due to a severe draught they could not fill the pool and it would cost way to much to truck the water in from Nevada. I called the local FD and asked the chief if he would like a water supply on their road. He came out 15 minutes later, looked it over and said no problem, within 30 minutes FD tenders were filling the pool. No cost to my mom and then I told here to call her insurance company & tell them about the water source. They lowered the cost for the house, the barn & most important they also lowered the crop insurance. The savings were over $2,000/yr.
Mom's happy, Fire Chief is happy and I know if they are much safer.

A few possibilities in my mind:
- Breach the exterior wall near victim (probably not enough air to do this)
- Hasty harness drag to minimize exertion and extract victim. With two firefighters dragging, exertion should be minimized and may be possible.
- Tie utility rope to victim and stretch to exit, tying two ropes in serial if need be. Exit and return with either fresh resources or new bottles. This option allows for speed in extracting the victim (quick exit and very quickly guiding the fresh resources both to the victim and then the exit again) where trying to remove the victim while conserving air would be excruciatingly slow. Probably the best option.

This topic is running on another site as well and this response fits just as well here as there I think:
This scenario was left vague for a couple of reasons. First off because this was simply the situation as presented in our discussions here. Secondly I thought it would be interesting and enlightening to see how this situation would fit in regards to the latest trends vis a vis safety that have come into the fire service in recent years. What strikes me is that like many other aspects of the service like career v volunteer or smoothbore v fog there are two very distinct and divergent trains of thought at work here. As is obvious this hypothetical situation plays into the larger debate of overall fireground safety, but unexpectedly, at least to me, we find ourselves with two very different and opposing points of view regarding the lengths we should go to in saving a life . This particular scenario, in which we have a viable victim in our hands, but extreme and potentially fatal risks involved in saving them, pits what I'll call the "old morality" against the "new morality".
In the world of the "old morality" we were taught and it was expected that you just did not leave a viable victim behind once you've found them, whereas in the world of the "new morality" to do so to save ourselves is not only justifiable, but expected. I make no judgements on what choice anyone would make in these circumstances, since as many have said we all have to live with ourselves and the choice we make in the end.
That said I will pass judgement though on a fire service that is slowly passing into a new era. One in which we have become more important than those we are here to serve. One in which regulations and protocols replace good training, experience and fireground flexibility in making decisions. One in which lives other than our own have become increasingly expendable if risks are involved in saving them. To me, and this is just MY opinion, such a change is not only a travesty but in essence an abandonment of the four basic principles of good firemanship...
Courage. It doesn't mean not being afraid, it just means being calm and doing what you have to do -- what others are relying on you for in a dangerous situation.
Dedication. Being dedicated to your crew, the brotherhood, and to the public we protect. We demonstrate that when we study and train and put it in action during an emergency.
Sacrifice. That is demonstrated time and again. We put ourselves in harm's way to help perfect strangers.
Tradition. We remember the courage, dedication, and sacrifice of "the old guys," we live it and do it, and pass it on to the rooks. Tradition ensures that the other principles never die
To close here's a quote, author unknown, that sums it up.
"As a profession we must return to the basics of our trade: Hot, dirty, hard work that every generation has done before us. Keep yourself educated, in shape and be true to the job. Remember we are the fire service and it is only as good as we make. Do not forget Firemanship, because without it public works could do our job".
Cogs

I just thought I'd write a quick wrap-up now to my life here in Afghanistan for 2011 since it appears we will be undergoing internet adjustments for a few days or maybe a week and I will be out of touch.
So as you all lie nestled in your beds awaiting Santa let me start off by wishing all of you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year!!
Well here it is, the end of 2011, the end of another year of work, fun, family, friends and fires. We have had our share of all of these things out here along with a few suprises to liven things up, just as I'm sure all of you have. For me 2011 has been a good year professionally overall in which I not only spread some knowledge but gained far more. I have had the opportunity to learn from firemen from all over the world including our newest additions from Kenya and Turkey. Tactics and terms may differ, but the one overriding lesson learned this year has been that firemen are firemen the world over. The drive to serve, to help those in need, knows no boundaries or borders and not even a war can suppress it. England, Canada, the Phillipines and India, South Africa and Namibia, Sri Lanka, Kenya, Turkey and Ecuador and yes the Good ole USA are all represented in our FD here at KAF and all of us carry with us that unique trait that calls us to be firemen. It is that common denominator that as overcome language barriers, cultural barriers and as it turns out tactical ones too. At first there were discussions on how to do this or that, more often than not met with nods, but not agreement...my way is better was the real view most of us held, which is only natural since that's what we know. But over time and in some cases alot of time it came to be that we developed the Kandahar way which in essence melded the experiences of everyone into a workable and more importantly a practical doctrine of how we do our job here. Not an easy task really but for the one universal fact we all shared...we are firemen and firemen deal with adversity and overcome it to accomplish the job of saving lives. That sentiment, that truth is as much a fact of life in the most remote Indian or Phillipino village as it is in New York or London or my hometown, Stamford, CT.
As I do every year at this time I use the Christmas season to reflect back on the year past and take stock. I have been fortunate in so may ways from my time here. Food on the table and a roof over my wife and children's heads. Experience in personnel management and incident command along with a host of new friends and professional connections. A better understanding of other cultures and people and the chance to learn about them. Travel and let's face it more sun than I ever wanted. These are just some of the gifts I have been fortunate enough to recieve this Christmas here in Kandahar, but even out here in this remore hell hole there is yet another gift I have recieved, and it has afforded me the ability to work on some issues from back home, and that is the gift of time. Our 24 hours on are filled with work, calls, training, gym, station duties and so on and on, but our 24 off are ours to do with as we please...inside the wire of course which is a bit like prison..LOL. But that time off has been well spent dealing all manner of personal, family and business issues as well as another EMTBravo topic's issues as well. Yes even 7000 miles way I'm still able to actively take part in helping to resolve Stamford's long standing fire service conundrum. The internet and skype have been invaluable in that work although the time difference can be a bit of a nuisance sometimes...especially if I forget I'm 9 1/2 hours ahead. But maybe the greatest gift of all I have gotten out here is to have been a part of history in the making and the time I have been able to spend working with and for the men and women of our military....truly priceless.
We have had many a sleepless night and some long hot days of incoming fire from the Talibastards and some injuries from those attacks, but mercifully as of today, Christmas Day 2011, at 1:11pm local time, no deaths on base. I have seen some grievous wounds working in the ER as a helping hand and watched many boys go home in flag draped caskets, but this is a war and a brutal one at that, and that is a part of war. As 2011 winds down I find myself wondering if this is all worth it. I guess I'm a hawk in that yes, in the end I believe it is. But I am not alone in that belief by any means. Most of the soldiers, sailors and airmen I work for and with out here share that sentiment and this I know because almost all conversations end up relating back to what brought us all together and why we are here in the first place. We may not go outside the wire but the world outside of it is always present here, like a black cloud that will not lift and the effects of this war we see and feel everyday at some point. So to my towel headed friends outside the wire I would just like to pass along a couple of heartfelt words to sum up our feelings for them as we ring out 2011....F*&K YOU!!!!!
Looking back and refelecting on the year and the season, I'm drawn to think of the closing lyrics of my favorite Christmas song since I first heard it in 1975...
"I wish you a hopeful Christmas
I wish you a brave New Year
All anguish pain and sadness
leave your heart and let your road be clear
They said there'd be snow at Christmas
They said there'd be peace on Earth
Alleliuah Noel
be it Heaven or Hell
the Christmas we get we deserve"

I've been fortunate and all things considered I've been handed a good Christmas and the one I think my family and I deserve, I hope you all have too.
Thanks for all you do in protecting the homefront, especially my Belltown Boys "A t W" since 1928
And to all
Take care
Stay Safe
and
God Bless
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !!!!!
Cogs

I think people are mistaken in what Time is actually doing here. They are not anointing someone BEST person of the year, they are anointing the most INFLUENTIAL.
Frankly, I think it hard to argue that protest movements have been very influential here in America as well as all corners of the Earth. This year protest movements have toppled regimes, changed national dialogs and liberated populations otherwise oppressed or subjugated. In almost 100 countries, from the squares of the Middle East to the streets of our very cities this year has been defined and influenced by protest movements. Whether you agree with the message is not being discussed, what is being discussed is how influential these people were on the year as a whole. Time, in whatever wisdom you deem they have, has decided that the influence of protest movements was too great to ignore. Honestly, when since the 1960's have so many people in this country, let alone the World been protesting something, anything to this extent (whether they are Tea-Bagging or Occupying or Animal Liberation or Environmental Activists or seeking Democracy).

200 years ago, here in the US, you purchased fire inurance for your home and were isued a firemark ( placque) for your front door. It signified that you were insured by that company. The volunteer fire companies were funded by insurance companies, and were not public agenies. If they pulled up (actually pulled up because their equipment was hand-drawn)and you did not have a firemark, they didn't put your fire out. So, the problem in Fulton is nothing new.
I see talk about a lack of morality on the part of the firefighters, What about the morality of the Fulton homeowners who would not pay their $75/year? They know the deal because the same thing has happened before and was widely publicized. Not only did they take a chance and lost, but by not paying, they lower the FD's ability to protect the community because its funds are lower.
I have known and worked with Chief Benz for a long time, and agree with his thoughts about life safety of the non paying homeowner, potential FF injuries, etc. I know full well that Chief Benz would pull up and take ALL these thoughts, analyze them, and do the right thing. Remember, however, that this analysis has to take under 30 seconds and a decision has to be made. Personally, I am quite certain that I could let that house burn and protect the paying exposures. If the non-paying homeowner was not accounted for and possibly inside, I would have to extend my size-up to 45 seconds and then render my answer.

I have worked as a career FF in a split house(E7/Springdale FC) and a career engine operating in a volunteer district (E9 in TORFD district) and have found, for the most part, operations run smoothly. Yes, sometimes egos (on both sides)get in the way, but oftentimes this is due to training/operational/communication differences. As I have stated several times before, I have worked at incidents with volunteers with nary a hitch. I also have worked at scenes with no volunteer presence. I see you just recently joined this forum. Go back through the over 1700 posts in this thread and you will find examples of departments working well together and the opposite. You will find lawsuits brought against the city and the union. You will see injunctions. You will see threats and police reports. It is a big mess. At the operational level, things (mostly) run smoothly. I, and many of my Union Brothers, do not want the Volunteers gone. Yes, some may. Some Volunteers want the Career guys gone. Some think that the Career guys are needed. No one ever said officially (or unofficially, for that matter) that they want the volunteers gone. I am going to show up for work every day and respond every time I am called. If volunteers respond to those same calls, great. More bodies means more work can get done faster and more efficiently.
As a firefighter at Engine 9, I realize that a volunteer will (hopefully) be driving T68 to give me water. I also realize that LDH1 is being driven by a Career Firefighter to attain that same goal. I do not care if the water coming out of the nozzle is provided by TORFD, LRFCo, SFRD, volunteer, paid, whoever. I just want water on that fire.

I'll do my best to answer your questions with the understanding that the views expressed are mine and mine alone
On this subject I must say that it is unfortunate if your views in regards to my relating my experiences here have been skewed due to my fervent beliefs regarding my hometown situation, they are in fact unrelated. Stamford is in turmoil yes, and in part that turmoil is due to bad decisions made on the part of all the players invloved incuding your union brothers of L-786. Let me be as clear as I can about something, I do not now nor have I never advocated for or supported the loss of anyone's job from SFRD....period. In fact I will say once agian that the option put forth by a group of us did address the job situation and guarantees no layoffs and promotions as well as two new hires and all that within the confines of no increase in spending. But enough about Stamford.
Yes I believe this is our Nation's the longest war. As for when do we leave, well I say we leave when the threat to our Nation is eradicated. To that end I think that we will need to have a military presence in this part of the world for the foreseeable future.
We have made our Country safer by rooting out and eliminating those who seek to do us grievous harm where the are. The blood spilled on these foreign shores has not been in vain because I subscribe to what I know is a general feeling among our troops here who often express it with this sentiment: "we would rather be doing this here than at home". And I believe that if we desert these operations here we will face a dramatic increase in terrorist activities and violence which will require a military solution at home. America's strength since the early 20th century has been our ability to keep the fight off our shores, failure to meet violence with violence here will only encourage our enemies to attack us at home. And quite frankly as I see it they use what resources they have fighting us here, not using them to get at everyone back home.
1)Yes I believe the Taliban can be eliminated, but not by military action alone. Life must get better for the people here to lessen the draw of groups like the Taliban. But the Tailban is just a symptom of a much larger problem facing the World.....radical miltant Islam
2) I think the Karzai government is a rotted bloated corrupt corpse in need of burial
3) I do not have first hand knowledge of corruption, but the signs are pretty evident all around us
4) Drugs are a major source of income here, not only for our enemies but for the regular Joe ( or should I say Akmed) as well. The trade although illicit and despicable is how many people simply feed their families here. And in what I'm sure will cause consternation to some, I believe that in the end it is not the drug growers or even pushers who are to blame alone, after all for them it is a business, but more so the users. There has to be a demand for the product otherwise it would not be profitable to engage in the drug trade in the first place. Drug trafficking as a way of life needs to be eradicated here, but there must be something to replace it if we are to gain the support or at least acceptance of the people here. It will be next to impossible to convince people to stop engaging in drug trafficking if they have no other way to feed temselves.
This war could end in a relatively short time if we approached it as a war. The restraints placed on our forces are hampering their ability to win a war and are in fact prolonging it. I do not advocate killing innocent people, but I do advocate winning our wars by whatever means necessary. If villagers are not with us they are against us and as far as I'm concerned they are the enemy and should be treated as such.
The end game here is the destruction of the Taliban and their supporters as well as a stabilzed country that wll no longer harbor terrorists nor aid them in their activities.
Here is the problem with this option. Pakistan is a soveriegn nation and a supposed ally, attacks on their territory will only widen the conflict and feed the insurgency. Also wars are not won by long distance engagements. We must have troops on the ground and the infastructure to support them and help move this country forward to secure the gains we make..and we are making them albeit very slowly. The whole issue of this region is containing and eliminating radical Islamic militants. This is happening here in Afghanistan, but it is Pakistan that is the breeding ground for the majority of this scourge. Until we face that demon we will be holding back the flood at best, but holding back that flood is a necessity or it will only get worse. When the time is right we will have to deal with radicalism in Pakistan if thye do not do so themselves, but for now we must work on eliminating it here first.
Yes we do face a myriad of problems back home, but failure to address the enemies outside will only end up leaving us more vulnerable at home. The troubles back home are severe and it will take sacrifices on the part of every American to get us moving out of the morass we are in at home. Maybe some type of new "New Deal" is in order to help jump start that process, but we can't just leave here now no matter the burden. The consequences of that would be dire and such a move would end up creating a worse problem in the end as our departure would signal to our enemies that all they have to do is wait us out. We will have a chance in a year to change direction of things back home and hopefully this time we will make the right choice.
Which is why I didn't vote for him
Well I think I've covered this, but I will reiterate that as far as I'm concerned and in a nutshell our involvement here and throughout the Middle East is necessary to act as a bulwark against the spread of radical Islamic militancy. We as a nation and as Americans are a target in this world and to me that means that we must be ever vigilant and ever ready to use force to protect ourselves. I do not take the shedding of the blood of so many young and honorable Americans lightly, but I do believe that like their forefathers their spilled blood has made us safer in this world. For that they have my most hearfelt and eternal gratitude
Stay Safe
and thanks for all you do on the homefront
Cogs

Well it's been awhile since I added anything here so I thought I'd just give a little update on things and maybe spout off a little about some recent developments in this part of the world.
So first off I'm just back form R&R, starting my 3rd shift back on tomorrow. It was great to get home, be the wife and kids, smell and feel the rain and see things with colors other than tan. My little guy is playing football and my daughter is a cheerleader so weekends were spent watching them on the field. I managed to get home in time for a 9/11 memorial dedication ceremony which was beautiful, and in my travels saw a number of really great ones as well...I must take this opportunity to pass along that I think the one a 5 Company in Stamford is one of, if not the best one I've ever seen...great job guys!!!!!
That said, we had some interesting incidents just prior to my departure home and a couple since I've been back (10/20). The most notable occured my first shift back when a suicide bomber attempted to detonate a tanker truck of propane at one of the entry points. Thankfully (and quite honestly mercifully) the bomb makers wired the device wrong and it not only exploded prematurely but because it was ill placed it only destroyed the cab and driver (only his feet remained in the cab) of the vehicle. No coalition forces were injured and the propane tank was emptied and then destroyed. This one could have been much, much worse. An assesment by the military concluded that had the device exploded properly niether I nor up to 2500 other people here would be talking to anyone right now. They estimated the blast radius would have easily encompassed a 1/4 of the base. Another note on this: it has been said that the VBIED exploded prematurely because the driver did it early purposely. Why you might ask? Well becuase his family was being held hostage to force him to carry out the attack. I saw this many times in Iraq and find it to be quite plausible. Whether that's true or he was just an idiot either way this guy saved hundreds if not thousands of lives...so thank you Mohammed.
Another noteworthy event took place just short of my R&R when an incoming rocket hit a wooden schoolhouse used by the kids of locals that work on base. No children were in the building at the time. A rocket hit it square and it was engulfed upon our arrival send a huge plume of black smoke int the morning sky. An adjacent wooden building roughly 100X50 (exposure 1) was also involved upon arrival. The schoolhouse was a total loss but we did save the exposures. A job well done by the boys who, in addition to the heat, regular turnout gear and dust, also had to contend with our body armor for the duration as it was a while before the all clear was given.
And the day I was leaving another suicide bomber on the North side met his maker before he managed to blow himself (and more importantly any of us) to Allah thanks to the quick work of our Force Protection guys. Along with that is the usual 3 to 5 calls a day and incoming on a fairly regular basis as described earlier here.
September and October have brought about some interesting and to me potentially disturbing changes to the landscape over here in the Middle East. As I'm sure we all know by now the world is rid of Moammar Khadafiy. I for one am as happy as pie at that outcome, but what baffles me is the calls for an investigation into his death. What's to investigate?... a murderous barbaric dictator got what was coming to him from his own people. Who cares if he had a trial or not in a world court...he had a trial on the spot, was sentenced and the sentence was carried out...bye bye Moammar and good riddance!! Another rather profound change is the recent announcement of the removal of all U.S. combat troops from Iraq. Now on this I'm not so sure we're taking the right path. I know a pledge was made by our President and he is in fact adhering to a tentative timetable set by his predecessor, but in reality folks the Iraqis are in no position to survive without us there. Ok so some may say so what screw them anyway...and that's one option. But I take a slightly different view on it. We have spilled the blood of thousands of American service members (and some civilians too) on that soil. Do we now just walk away and let their sacrifice be in vain as the country degenerates into chaos once again until Iran steps in. One may not agree with why we were there in the first place, but we would be safer in the long run to keep a presence there awhile longer if you ask me. And as far as this place goes, well I don't see us pulling out in 2014 but of we do it will most lilely be another mistake as this cradle of the taliban will once agin become a breeding ground and save haven for terrorists. Which brings me to the latest statement from that squeaky clean, most upstanding poster child of the incorruptable politician, Hamid Karzai. This "President" of Aghanistan has publically stated that in the event of a war between Pakistan and the U.S., he would side with Pakistan. So much for loyalty huh boys and girls? This POS seems to forget that he exists only because we, in an effort to promote self determination, let him. But hey judging from what I've seen the Afghan National Army is not a real source of worry on the battlefield...except maybe to each other. One more opinion if I may....Pakistan is a powder keg waiting to blow my friends. It is from there that the majority of this war's "freedom fighters" have emerged. They have been playing both sides for years and with the death of Osama and Karzai's statements relations between us are becoming more and more strained each day. I fear things will get worse before they get better in this part of the world and hope that all of you will stand in support our Nation if these troubles increase. Hey if the Mayans and Hollywood are right and 2012 is the end I'm sure it is right here that the end will start...this part of the world is as f****ed up as it gets.
Stay safe
and thanks for all you all do on the homefront (especially my Belltown Boys AtW since 1928)
Cogs

Let's talk now then. A residential sprinkler head average maybe 13 gpm upon activation, 95% of residential fires where sprinklers were present were held or extinguished by 2 or less heads. So under 26 gpm water flowing will cause how much damage compared to a fire that doubles in size every minute and that's "old math" compared to the new highly combustible furnishings we use today. Let's say there's are dwelling fire that a career staffed FD responds to within 6 minutes of detection. The fire was already out of hand when discovered requiring the call to 911, now it's 64 times greater than at discovery. Upon arrival the FD leads out in just 1 minute and starts water on the fire (pretty good), what are they flowing? I'll be conservative and say 150 gpm. That's the same amount of water basically as two heads would have flowed until the FD arrived, with no increase in fire size. Starting to get the picture? And that's if they only needed to flow for 1 minute, which is extremely unlikley.
As for inadvertent water damage, the data suggests this is extremely rare. You already have water piped throughout the home, and today plumbers are mostly using PEX tubing or CPVC with expands upon freezing rather than break like iron pipe or copper.
Our city has mandated sprinklers in new one and two family dwellings since 2010, thus far none of the systems have exceeded $10k, and the high was due to the home having an in home business which the state decided to require more sprinkler head coverage and required a second larger water entrance, which is not the case in any of the other homes.
With uninformed naysayers in our midst, we're sure to have to fight an uphill battle all the way. And lastly, fire damage is permanent, water damage is largely reversible, it's a no brainer, is it not

"Explosion", "Blew up" or just a very "large Fire"......The discriptions need to be looked at.
The White Plains I-287 "tanker" was an MC330 high pressure tank containing liquified propane. The tank was ruptured by the force of the impact with a bridge. The liquified propane leaked out and without the vessel to contain the pressure converted back to its natural state; propane gas. The vabor cloud travel about 500 feet (200 feet past the tractor). At that point (about 2/3 of the cloud) was above the flammable level (too rich), the other 1/3 was below the flammable level (too lean) but the part at the cab was within the flammable range and ignited. It flashed out to the 500' and back to the tank, which forced it into the homes. This tank did not bleve, it ignited and burned rapidly. At the point the tank took of it technically would be considered an explosion.
Most gasoline tankers (MC-306 MC-406) are aluminum and are considered non-presurized. The containers tend to rupture from an impact, leak product and ignite not explode. They rarely "explode" but the flammable liguid will burn with intensity. This does not make it any less dangerious to fight, but it is important to understand the difference.
The tactics used also differ with flammable liquids and flammable gasses. Class B Foam is a good choice the liquids, but is useless on the flammable gasses. Flammable gas fires generally need to be "turned off" or "burn out".

Guess the southern county does participate in tanker operations....

The answer is yes to the question if you can hold both a CFR and EMT certification at the same time. In New York State I am a certified EMT-D #185331 since 1993. I am also a certified CFR-D # 185331 since 2000 when I was hired/trained by the FDNY. There have been 3 times since then when I have taken my recertification exam for CFR-D at Ft Totten in the morning and then taken my EMT recertification exam the same night in Putnam County where I live. And yes I am aware that I have the same number but each time I recertify, the state sends me a new EMT card and a new CFR card

I respectfully recommend that you re-read the wonderful Ben Franklin quote which you have posted on your profile...then re-read it again...then, take a deep breath...now think about how old you are....deep breath again...Ben Franklin.....ok, now... may I humbly suggest that you seriously consider refraining from posting your opinions in regard to the fire service for at least several years.?

Why is Somers PAYING Westhester EMS to dispatch private, for profit, transports from their dispatch room?
Does WEMS pay rent, or is this in the contract?
I've been to a couple of Somers Commisioners meeeting over the past few years. There always was very little attendance,including the membership of Somers FD, but all the commisioners. Some of what's been said here was being discussed at the meeting.
One Commisioner, who was formerly a Chief I later found out, seemed to get really angry when the subject of going to 60 Control would save money came up. It was like there was no reasoning with him. Seemed like he had an axe to grind whenever two commisioners would say anything at all. There was palpable tension between him and these commisioners, and you can tell he wanted no change whatsoever and saw absolutely no flaws with anything. He also seemed to imply he was in charge of the radio room, and could not explain how he seperates himself from WEMS. With that Commisioner still on the board, I don't think any of the above is going to happen anytime soon, unless he get's knocked out during the next election.
It's sad that one person can hold grudges, is frightened of any change, and can harbor so much anger that it prevents a department from moving forward.

Define "extraordinary response" - I don't follow.
Not following you here. Are you saying neighbors can't respond to neighbors in case they have a fire at home? Please elaborate.
What's so amazing? Host FD's 3 rigs, MA source Engine, MA Dump Site engine, 5 MA Tankers, Cascade Unit, FAST. Again, not following you here.
While I agree a FAST company needs to be on scene as quick as possible, that location is very remote from Mohegan's HQ, as well as all of the other Mutual Aid that came in. Also, these times in the post above may no be 100% accurate, as the writer said.
I could be wrong, but I think I heard radio traffic stating a person may still be inside. If there's a chance someone is inside, I believe the OSHA 2 in / 2 out rule is not expected to be adhered to - and according to said rule, your apparatus operators may count as your "two out." When we arrived, there was at least 10-12 members of the YHFD on location, so I am sure all of them didn't go inside initially.
Still would have to call Tankers...
Not 100% true, there are guys out there (myself included) that believe things can be done better, but with what we all have at our disposal at the moment - we do the best we can. Yorktown and Croton are two neighboring departments that have done plenty of assessments to see what we can do to help ourselves and our customers, which has led to automatic aid responses of FASTs, Tankers, etc. We may not be a "consolidated" group, but our intentions are for the best of all involved, given what we have available to us right now.

Sorry Chief, I was reading up on my phone and not neglecting to respond to you. No offense taken, or feelings hurt either.
To begin, the Yorktown Heights Fire District covers approximately 40 square miles, 1/2 of which contain no hydrants. The southern end of Yorktown is the non-hydrant district, with roads that were designed for travel well before cars were ever designed to be driven on them. Old Logging Rd, which is the access road for Maiden lane is even worse. It is a single lane goat path, with barely even enough room for a single engine, let alone some massive tankers to drive up, or even turn around. OUR engines and tanker are designed to fit up these roads/ driveways, and designed with our district in mind. Some of our neighboring department's tankers will not fit down our old roads, and if they do make it down, there is no where for them to turn around to get back to a fill site. Most of the houses located on these properties are large, older buildings constructed with balloon frame, wood, plaster, lathe, and are home to many hoarders (seems to be an epidemic in Yorktown recently). The newer homes are just as big and McMansions in some cases. Many unique homes and oddly designed layouts also adorn our district on the southend.
Yorktown has 2 primary first due engines, Engine 273 out of the Commerce St station in the center of town with 1000 gallons, and Engine 272 out of Station 2 in the Northern, hydrant supplied section of town, with 750 gallons of water. The Tanker sits at the commerce st house as well. Engine 270 is a rescue pumper with only 500 gallons, and engine 271 is our spare engine (basically an older twin of 273). Engine 270 would normally be a 3rd due engine, if it responds at all, to keep our hurst tools available for a run. In our non-hydranted sections of town, it is not uncommon to have driveways that are hundreds, or even thousands of feet long (our longest being almost 1/2 a mile off of hog hill rd). Old logging road is basically no different then a common access driveway that is thousands of feet long.
Now on to your question of why 7 departments were called.
Our first due engine takes the drive way and normally lays in from the bottom for long lays. The next due engine then hooks up to that to relay pump to the first due. The tanker supplies the 2nd due, and drops its tank for a dump site there. At this particular house, the driveway was only 100' long, if that. 273 arrived first, and 272 was seconds behind them. Upon arrival, the neighbors were screaming that the owner was still inside, so our priorities immediately turned to life safety. Engine 272 immediately supplied 273 with their tank water, and sent their crew to assist in the offensive attack. Tanker 14 arrived shortly thereafter, and supplied 272.
Millwood and Croton's engines were called as draft site fills, and I believe a relay and supply line to the tanker at the scene. Even with the water that was there with the initial 3 apparatus, the water filling the supply lines, and the time it takes to back one tanker out and have another one pull in and dump its tank, the supply was running out every 2-5 minutes and we could not keep up with the fire flow formula. More tankers were requested to compensate for the lack of water supply.
Yorktown is very adamant about not stripping other towns and villages of apparatus for our fires. If we've called you for 1 piece, the only way we're going to call for something else is if there has been a discussion with the chief of that particular department a)having the capability to supply 2 pieces and the manpower and willingness to deplete their town of their own resources. If they say no, we can't/don't want to/ or unsure, they're not going to get called for 2.
Our 10-75 assignment for any non hydrant area (which we'll stick to for the remainder of the discussion [our other boxes and assignments can be found here: Yorktown box alarms]) includes tankers from 3 other departments, and an engine as a source pumper; 1 and 1 are requested on the relocate to cover our town since our manpower is focused on the working fire. FASTeams are dual dispatched on the initial report of any type of structure fire before a working fire is transmitted. 2nd alarm, moves the engine that is standing by up to a new draft site, and brings in 2 additional tankers, a cascade to the scene, another FAST and another engine on a relocate to our HQ. 3rd alarm brings in 2 additional Tankers and the Field Comm unit. The relocated ladder will not be taken off standby, as they will clog the system up.
So the 7 departments were:
Yorktown as first due
Croton - Engine and Tanker
Millwood - Engine and Tanker
Somers - Tanker, Rehab unit
Continental Village - Tanker
Katonah - Tanker
Buchannon - Cascade
Now, I'm for regonalization and standardization of some aspects of the fire department, but some areas of the county, regardless of fire district lines, are completely different then others. Apparatus design that work well in one area, may not work well in an area directly adjacent to that. Consolidation is always a hot topic, and I know prior i've been adamant about county consolidation. Honestly, I have no idea what the correct answer is. Sometimes, independant districts are fantastic, and other times they're completely horrendous. I really don't know if there is a single correct answer for the current situation around our area.
And in the utmost respectful way to ask this possible, and I really mean that, would you or anyone else for that matter, consider consolidating the ENTIRE county, large cities included, into ONE regional department? If so, why, or if you exclude large cities from your plan, why are they so special and different from a town or village department?

While I do agree with some points made here like 28 miuntes for a FAST team is far to long to wait, fortunately this was for the most part an exterior surround and drown as the fire had made substantial progress prior to arrival of the first due unit and probably was burning for a good period of time prior to discovery and reporting. As for consolidation/regionalization I think that is a fantastic idea, however with NY being a home rule state and too many different entities to make it happen so maybe we should find another topic to beat to death. As stated most of the mutual aid at this job was for tankers, the Millwood engine was requested for the fill site and the Croton engine was requested for the dump site to supply the rigs at the top of the hill doing the attack. The 3 units that were held for manpower were due to the fact that this structure was a collyer's mansion so overhaul was a labor intensive operation. Utility 88 was requested for rehab, utility 12 was requested for the cascade. The county's policy requires a deputy coordinator for any mutual aid fire. My estimation of manpower was more like 60 - 70 firefighters. Mutual aid is not strictly used by only northern westchester it is used countywide by almost all departments except going into the city of yonkers. (Correct me if I am wrong here Chief Flynn). I do have 1 question for you Chief Flynn and I am not trying to start a career/vollie problem here since I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your department. How many rigs (engines, trucks, rescues and any special units) would you get on your 2nd alarm and how many firefighters would that be. This post is strictly my own observations and opinions and in no way reflect my department or any department that operated at ths job and did a great job!

Going by the list posted above it looks like most of the mutual aid was for Tankers. I never understood tanker shuttles until I joined a department that relies on them. Its better to have too many tankers, than not enough, its no fun when you run out of water. I see five tankers listed, 3 of of which can carry a maximum of 2 or 3 firefighters (including the driver), the other two have larger crew cab areas and can hold upto 6 (including the driver). Those three smaller tankers most likely contributed nothing to manpower on the scene, as some departments want a second person in the tanker to act as a spotter and work the radio. The way tanker shuttles were taught to me (and maybe I am wrong) was one dumping at the scene, one on the way to the scene, one filling at the fill site, and one returning to the fill site to be refilled. Add in additional tankers as the distance increases, or you start to use more than one porta pond to flow large amounts of water such as a ladder or master stream devices 1 Utility (U88) is a bus, not sure if it carried manpower or was used for rehab. 3 engines called to the scene of which one was listed as the FAST. Remember, with a tanker shuttle you need an engine at the water source, and often another at the scene to supply the engine making the attack, or a ladder. Even if these departments consolidated ( which I am not totally against) chances are the same amount of apparatus would have responded.

115 I in no way meant to demean in the way you attributed. I appologize to you and anyone that felt I was doing so. I meant to say that the individuals who perform FD work are fairly costly and they deserve it(the money they earn), agreed? That being agreed to (I hope) my point throughout the thread is: Paid firemen are costly, my taxes are high, there are very few emergencies in my town that could be effectively mitigated by a small crew in a very spread out town, (larger than Manhattan, many non hydrant areas), despite the $170,000 needless expense of dispatch and the appx $100,000 for office staff that might by re-channeled to cover the costs for paid firemen; there is $270,000, which at $140,000 loaded cost = a tad less then the cost of two firemen) the proposition to spend many dollars to hire a small group of folks who would have a tiny chance they would be effective in the small likelihood of a fire and that makes it not worth it.
I see crime and the lack of PD resources in Somers a much larger issue, and IF I had the money to spend, that is where it would go.
I heard a politician discuss the the tx/budget issues in NYS and he said "As long as New Yorkers maintain their insatiable thirst for services, we will not be able to reduce taxes in a meaningful way." Unpopular as it might be an a fire site, I am no longer thirsty. My guess is many taxpay/service consumers feel or the same way, or will soon and municipal pension costs expand greatly in the nest few years.
As usual, I invoke the right to be wrong.

Wow, I was away for a few days, so there is some catching up to do: I am in favor of customer service. I wish I could get a few cops to my home in a few minutes like many other towns can do. My town has a part time, day only PD, ans a single trooper car at night. What kind of customer service is that going to provide? I can only afford to buy a certain amount of customer service, so I have to be a good consumer and choose wisely. At $140,000/year/fireman and two fires a year in a town with 20,000 or so residents, I am afraid I can't make you all happy and buy, say, a dozen.
Barry: OK, ya got me on the "how long have you been a medic?" answer to my never having met anyone saved from a fire. In retrospect, I have met several dead bodies pulled out, and RMA'd some others. In 29 years on the bus I bet I have taken, I dunno 12 fire victims. Thinking more about it, many of them were folks who set themselves on fire with stoves, gasoline, cleaning products or other situations in which there was not a fire on anything but them. I'll admit, this is a dumb arguement. Yes people are on occasion rescued from fires alive and live to recover. Conceded. As to your taxes- I bet you live in a more dense district than I, and it has losts of taxpayers in it to pay for service. Somers has many HUGE parks (Lasdon, Muscoot, North County Trail, Anglebrook)and resevoirs that don't pay taxes, but suck up a lot of real estate. Can you look at your policy and tell me how much of your premium goes to insure for fire loss? I looked at mine and no way can I tell.
When folks on this thread talk about a % of savings based on ISO reduction, is that a % of the ENTIRE premium or just the portion of the premium that goes for fire loss? The answer to that goes a long way in figuring out if more firemen = money spent or saved, and I don't have that answer.
As for SFD dispatch claims by Pilla; He is no longer a commissioner. I ran a very successful campaign to get him out. I got the first non SVFD member in history onto the board, Jim Arena. Pilla was serving with no pay as a commissioner and spending tons of $$ on his pet projects (his words) of dispatch and the radio upgrade. GUESS WHAT?? upon his defeat, the SFD HIRED him as a paid staffer to continue that work! Now he gets in the %15- 20,000 year range to work on keeping dispatch and upgrade the radio system with grant money that politicians pandering to the fire service lavish on us (after first borrowing it from China). There is NO defense of the SFD decisions as to how they choose to spend money for dispatch service. One must note that one SFD commissioner is full time employed as a dispatcher for WEMS. Hmmm...
Heritage Hills: From vafrious things I have seen, Heritage does NOT consume a disproportionately amount of service. This may be because many of their residents leave in the winter.

I live in Somers. I am an FD member. I own my home. I pay about $10,000 in property taxes a year. About $500 are fire and EMS taxes (it says "fire and EMS" on my tax bill).
My home is made out of wood and there are no hydrants in my immediate neighborhood, though a recent water project put one in about 1800 feet away. At age 45 I have never had a fire in my home. I have never been in a structure that caught fire. (other than going as a fireman) No one in my family (brother, sister, mom, dad) has either. I have never met anyone that has been rescued from a fire. I have absolutely no expectation that under currant conditions a fire in my home would be extinguished in a manor that would save anything of value. We in Somers do not use the F.I.T. devices that allow 1 man to knock down a fire.
I do not want anyone risking their lives to save my house. It is insured. I have no ability to pay yearly taxes to fund a crew of firemen that may or may not be available (due to calls) to come and successfully/unsuccessfully save my home. I am told that the "loaded cost" of 1 fireman is about $140,000 per year (salary, pension, workers comp, OT for vacation/training, days off, sick time etc) So a small ( 4 guys- gotta have 2 in 2 out, right?)crew will cost me about 1/2 million dollars a year. Our Somers Town Budget is about $11 million dollars/year. The SFD budget is about 2.8 million, though they have managed to save over 4 million in various special accounts. (I have heard of tax and spend, but the SFD taxes and puts it in the bank!) So $500,000 every year in costs for the small daytime crew represent about a 20% increase in spending for the District. That is about $250,000 PER FIRE for the roughly 2 working fires we average a year. Yes it will be sad if my home burns. Even sadder if I and/or my family is home when it does. I have 7 smoke detectors ($7 each) and about as many extinguishers. For $500,000, I will step out the window into fresh air, walk across the kitchen bump-out roof, and jump the 9 feet, hopefully into deep soft snow (most fires are in winter). Since I am a 10 minute firetruck drive from the main station, I would probably have to do that anyway.
I am really sorry. I would love to see everyone get a great job as a paid fireman. I would love to have a standing army of highly trained and well equipped first responders in our four stations staffing 2 ladders, 5 engines a heavy rescue and a tanker. May as well throw in the scuba truck and ATV thingy too. I simply don't have the money it would cost to do that. As the "buyer" in this transaction, I am afraid I can't afford it. I will be careful to not overload any wires. I will keep the chimney clean. I will hope for the best. At 45 years old, I will be moving into assisted living in another 30 years or so. Hopefully I'll make it, house intact, then they can hire as many firemen as they want.

http://oswegocountytoday.com/?p=70526
At first glance, reading the article it might seen that the Mayor has a point.
.... if true, the Union must have a great contract.Then reading the comments, it seems that the city is getting mutual aid as well as giving it. Another half-baked idea, half-correct story?