FirNaTine

Wrong. Get more members on-scene to get the job done and leave RIT/FAST standing bye.

WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO ACCEPT NOT ENOUGH STAFFING AT FIRES?

While we cant change the on-duty staffing. Their are standards for staffing at incidents. The bosses need to follow them and the unions need to hold their feet to the fire on this. If it means calling every dept. mutual aid then DO IT. But no we then complain that this is abuse. Yes it is, but whats more important is the brothers inside. Maybe if the abuse gets bad enough, the communities will open their eyes and accept change.

Don't hold your breath! Communities will never open their eyes! Taxpayers care about two things and that's Police Protection and their Garbage being picked up cause God knows their house won't catch fire their neighbors will! So long as other Municipalities keep bailing each other out those that abuse M/A will continue to do it! BTW those that continue to respond on M/A and play in each others sandbox aren't helping their "Brothers" in a neighboring Community they're actually hurting them and helping the neighboring Municipalities Administration who don't have to hire more individuals and can even put apparatus oos cause hey what the hell Ill just utilize another Communities FD if there's a fire, right? Don't take it personal but the truth is Bnechis Dept. members whose Administration abuses M/A, don't want the help anyway from neighboring Depts.. Again your not helping them with their cause your only helping their Administration! Trust me!

While on this topic when is the "Emergency Escape Ladder" on a Tower Ladder ok to use for asending and/or descending from the bucket?

^{I love when there's a skeleton crew inside busting their hump overhauling and chasing hot spots only to see 3 to 4 fresh guys outside standingby for the inevitable. Yeah that makes sense! Get your RIT /FAST or whatever you want to call it asses inside and relieve the Brothers! Enough already!!}

I have no problem giving people another chance but it also depends on the infractions. I don't think the Emergency Service Industry(FD PD EMS etc) should be the Professions wher those with Felonies are given this second chance either. Don't we owe it to the taxpayers paying our Salaries whom we took an oath to protect and are suppose to trust us? They deserve better don't they? This is what happens though when the Standards are lowered so nobody in the Vern should be surprised. Deal with it!

Some of the lifeguard positions are for a city run waterpark, that the depth of water does not exceed 6 inches. I suspect that's why they don't require it.

No, because if we failed anyone because of it we would be in violation of the court order.

Bnechis wasn't the Court Order for a specific time frame until a quota was met and is probably now * and void or remains in effect forever?

The Vulcan decree is what made the written test pass/fail and the physical agility graded. It was this that made it almost impossible for a woman to get hired? How do you successfully change this? Go back to the days when both portions are equally weighted? things have come full circle in 33 years. Remarkable!

Seems like the "Experiment" came back to bite them in the Ass! Guess they didn't think of the end result besides destroying the Profession! Oh Well!

"The agreement had an unintended consequence of making paid firefighting jobs tougher for women to land, Mount Vernon Fire Chief Edward Stevenson said."

"Fire departments were forced to put a heavier emphasis on the physical examination rather than the written test, making it more job related and equitable to minorities, Stevenson said. But that emphasis on the physical exam made it more difficult for women."

Ok so lets look at the facts. Before the 1980 Vulcan decree no women ever passed the test and after it a few did. In fact Mt. Vernon Hired one. So it did not make it harder, it in fact made it easier.

The court agreement in each city is different as they did not make the written pass fail in New Rochelle, its still a graded test, but in Mt Vernon the Vulcans requested the federal court drop the grads because it put "minorities, including women" at a disadvantage.

Also they did not make the physical harder, they made it job related. Previously it was a physical fitness based exam, whoever could do the most push ups, sit ups, in the time allotted and running etc. Now they have you pulling hose, and running up stairs with a standpipe pack, etc. They also eliminated things like a specific height requirement and replaced it with removing a ladder from the side of an engine (if you are short this is harder to do without dropping one end).

Bnechis, one thing I could never understand is why they did away with the swimming portion of your test which I believe should be re-implemented for All Departments, especially yours! Every FF should know how to swim especially a Dept. adjacent to LI Sound. I don't believe it was a timed event either just prove you could swim a couple of laps I think in NRHS pool? Whatever happened to that requirement for your Dept.? Could anyone imagine a frantic Parent pleading with a so called Professional FF to save her drowning child only to have him/her say 'Maam I don't know how to swim". That would go over big!

No way in hell should any Dept should make the Physical any less challenging for woman. Are the physical demands going to be any less demanding at a Job? Enough already with this B/S and these f****** quotas. Peoples lives, both civilians and ffs are being jeopardized to satisfy a select few. Nor should the written be any less important then the Physical. No need for Braun over Brains folks you actually have to have a decent head on your shoulders also to accomplish the tasks of a ff. Anything less and people will die. FDMV actually had a woman yrs ago and where is she now? Give them the same frigging Physical and if they do well then give them the Job but can we please stop accomadating everybody! Why is it Civil Service always has to be the red headed stepchild when it comes to this nonsense.

He also said as long as neighboring depts continue to send units into Mt Vernon why would they hire?

Spot on! This usually falls on deaf ears to though unfortunately.

Just so long as a Yonkers life isn't lost due to one of those Companies being on M/A.. I'd be pretty pissed off if I lost a family member cause one of the 1st due fire companies was in another municipality who constantly abuses the s*** out of the Policy and works with a skeleton crew to cut down on OT!. BTW kudos to YFD for the grab and a great stop!

Absolutely right lad12derff. Mayor Davis feels the same way!

In this day and age I wish it said "veterans are encouraged to apply"

Absolutely! Those should be the first individuals FD's should be looking to hire like Boston FD did I believe a year or two ago.

We should not have to "dumb down" a Job to reach quotas, period! Municipalities should be looking for "Quality" not 'Quantity"! The Job is inherently dangerous enough why make it more so by hiring incompetent individuals who for the most part don't give a dam about the profession and are just there for a paycheck anyway let's face it! We're all suffering in the long run, especially the taxpayers these mopes took an oath to protect! The Fire Service has always been a Semi- Military Organization yet some Depts. lower their Standards less then what's required to join the Military and then want the place to be run as such. Yeah, OK!!! Keep frigging dreaming! These Depts. made their beds now let them sleep in them!!!!

That's because we have a generation brought up to believe "everything is about ME". And this attitude is reinforced constantly in music, movies and TV ..perfect example, shows like Survivor, Big Brother ect who's core message is screw everyone else...lie, cheat, steal, backstab and otherwise do whatever you have to do to get "mines". Hard to have Brotherhood when "normal" thinking means thinking only of yourself and how you're going to get what you "deserve".

Spot on!

Sadly true. It breaks one of the greatest traditions of the Fire Service: Brotherhood

No such thing as "Brotherhood" anymore Chief or at least it's not as prevalent as it was. Guys do nothing but stab each other in the back and turn a blind eye nowadays!

I noticed in the flier that you have to be in "excellent" physical condition but only of "good" moral character. I guess the city doesn't worry that Firefighters go into people's houses when they are not home.

And, Cap, you must be old school if you noticed all the typos. Back in your day (and mine) the job descriptions always said "Performs light clerical duties." That piece of the job description is gone, so candy dates don't have to spel gud no more.

I better stop writing now or I'll get in trouble

Peoples' houses? How about Station Locker Rooms? What a disgrace to the Profession!

I know this is a topic that has been beaten to death, and not many emergency personal will comment on a topic that we all deal with. It does bring up good points. I feel the moral in Fire Departments suck. I can see the numbers of responders getting lower and lower for calls. There used to be a time that when the pager wqent off regardless what time or what call, we all went because not only for the duty we love but to get out and hang around after the call and shoot the s***. Now ( and I know we all have families, etc. etc. ) it's like everyone is afraid to even talk in the rig going or coming from a call. I love to make jokes, and sometimes crude jokes or like poking fun with other brothers and sisters. But my GOD it's like you have to wear a muzzle now. It's to the point that probies complain about being bullied because they have to roll hose. Why to I want to subject my self to this baby bullshit, if you can't take it, get out!

A lot has to do with the way their Mommy and Daddy are bringing them up an Society as a whole. Everybody gets a trophy now so nobody's feelings are hurt. A lot of kids being born with a silver spoons in their mouths and feel they're owed everything.

I'm so happy someone other than myself feels the same way. I 100% agree with you FFEMT150, but in the world of lawsuits, slander, and bullies it seems almost impossible to say, write, or type your feelings, opinions and facts. I wish I can thread about some articles or comment about certain things, but I did that done that and got heat about it. I never wanted to use a false I.D, but in todays baby sucking nipple world, who wants to her crap about what I said. We all have stories about the FD service or EMS service. It's hard for some to (Q.T.I.P), especially Chiefs or Captains of certain departments. Things are not what they used to be. There was also a time you can have a beer together and shoot the s*** during social events and the next you know your being suspended or fired. There is no thick skin anymore. Most go running home to mommy with tears in there eye, a business card of a lawyer name in one and false statements in the other. Thick skin got feeled off a long time ago most take it personally and there the ones that I see on this site.

Now isn't that the truth! Spot on Westchester!

So FDNY ONLY does Reverse Lay? Just because they don't call it forward lay (in line pumping) does not mean it the only way they do it. We do both forward and reverse and have been doing it since we had 5 man engines, So its clearly not for job security.

If you only need one or 2 lines the reverse lay works just fine, but once you need more, you end up having to do massive hand stretches to do. Something that works well only if you have a number of engine companies with lots of manpower on each.

Many depts. that do reverse lays are getting 250-300 gpm out of their 1,500gpm pumps, not very efficient.

Earlier this year I went mutual aid to a scene that started as a house fire, but quickly spread to both exposure 2 & 4. The homes were in the middle of a long narrow street. The dept. did two 500 foot reverse lays out from the scene to the hydrants at the next corner (one to one corner, the other to the intersection in the opposite direction). The positioned 2 ladders in front of the buildings. This worked great when they need 900gpm from a couple of hand lines. Because they always do reverse they did not use the hydrant directly across the street (it would have required a 50' back stretch). Once they needed to boost the flow by 2,000 gpm (with 2 ladder pipes) they had no way to do it. The IC asked me to establish a water source. We found the next closest hydrant on the block behind the fire block, forwarded laid 200 ft of 5in LDH, then hand back stretch 600-700 ft up over a 6' wall, thru two yards (luckily the fence had been knocked down in a storm), then up the block to the ladder that was in front of the non used hydrant. 1,300 -1,500gpm to the ladder pipes.

Wow so 1 fire in the last 40+ years had an issue with hydrant "gremlins" well that's a good reason to stop using our pumpers to maximum ability.

To each is own. If it works great for you then keep with it. As far as the hydrant not being used across the street your absolutely right. No excuse for that that's a no brainer. Gotta be able to adapt to the situation at hand and yes your right if your hose beds are set up correctly you can do both. Wow, I can't believe we actually agreed on something Capt.. Lets leave it at that.

@firnatime....Are you volly or career? Just curious because your profile is vague. Maybe if we knew who you were your post might be more meaniful. Bnechis is respected fire officer in a career department and im sure has seen more fire than you have. If we all had 5 man engine companies (like FDNY) or put 50 FF on a first alarm (like FDNY) than none of this would be a concern. We don't and can't. I think you need to take a look at FDNY history. Reverse stretch is not done because its better at every job, it's done to make room for the trucks because space is an issue.

LMAO! Now that's some funny s*** right there! What's next my mother can beat up your mother? Oh and btw nobody ever said Bnechis wasn't a respected Officer. Im sure he is and good for him and his Dept.. All I did was post my thoughts on a topic and all of a sudden the daggers came out. Especially from folks who haven't been on here in awhile. WTF! I can't have an opinion on something without people criticizing my view points? I didn't throw the first stone and ill be damned if Im going to sit back and be made a fool of just because I see things differently. Not every Dept. follows the same protocol nor should they but at least respect another person's point of view!

Couldn't agree more! A lot of QTIPS on here lately! Can't take constructive criticism!

That was my point. Clearly you're indicating that a change in how things are done might better serve your department in the short term. Arguing that a fourth firefighter would do "no good" or implying it would be of little help is foolhardy regardless of which way you lay your supply. Closing companies to spread firefighter around to attain the staffing level may not be the answer, but 4 will beat 3 every day of the week.

First of all Im not, nor did I ever advocate reducing manning or close companies . In fact I really don't know where that notion ever came from?. Whether I have 3 or 4 guys on a rig I personally believe a reverse lay is better, especially if you have 4 guys on an Engine. Drop all 3 off ifo the f/b and have the MPO take off to the hydrant and let him worry about the water supply as two guys are pulling hose and the Officer is being an Officer. I think this is a little more rational then having 1 guy hooking up to a hydrant why the Engine is down the block with one guy stretching and the Officer off and running and being an Officer like he's suppose to no?

Yes even if the 4th man is at the hydrant, because now you have a 3 man engine with a water supply vs. a 3 man engine without. This also frees up the next engine (3 or 4 man) to not have to establish the 1st water supply and they can go right to work.

Since we use to have 4 (and when I started, occasionally 5 man engines) and have gone to 3, one big problem has been in standpipe buildings.

With 4 - the driver would stay outside to supply the Siamese

the officer would find the fire apt. and often determine the layout from the floor below

the 2 FF's would flake out the line, nozzle man would go to the nozzle and hydrant man would control the wheel.

the officer & nozzle man would advance the line and once flow was established the hydrant man would chase the kinks and relieve the officer in backing up the nozzle man.

Now with 3 - The driver is still in the street, the officer helps flake the line and does not do his job. When ready to charge the line the officer has to man the wheel and let the nozzle man advance the line by himself (violating OSHA 29CFR1910.134). Now when the nozzle man is a probie, the officer will often take the nozzle and send the nozzle man to get the wheel, so he is not sending the rookie in alone.

Huh? And what are the 2nd and 3rd due Engines doing? Never heard anything so crazy! Better ask NIOSH what they would do.

Yes even if the 4th man is at the hydrant, because now you have a 3 man engine with a water supply vs. a 3 man engine without. This also frees up the next engine (3 or 4 man) to not have to establish the 1st water supply and they can go right to work.

Since we use to have 4 (and when I started, occasionally 5 man engines) and have gone to 3, one big problem has been in standpipe buildings.

With 4 - the driver would stay outside to supply the Siamese

the officer would find the fire apt. and often determine the layout from the floor below

the 2 FF's would flake out the line, nozzle man would go to the nozzle and hydrant man would control the wheel.

the officer & nozzle man would advance the line and once flow was established the hydrant man would chase the kinks and relieve the officer in backing up the nozzle man.

Now with 3 - The driver is still in the street, the officer helps flake the line and does not do his job. When ready to charge the line the officer has to man the wheel and let the nozzle man advance the line by himself (violating OSHA 29CFR1910.134). Now when the nozzle man is a probie, the officer will often take the nozzle and send the nozzle man to get the wheel, so he is not sending the rookie in alone.

Completely Wrong! Go to a Reverse Lay like FDNY everybody's Heroes on here. Let the MPO make the hydrant for God's sake especially if you have a 4 man Engine and let the Officer be an Officer and have 2 Back step men pull the hose. Not the 4th guy 100-250 ft down the street worry about water supply and then have to high tail it down to the fire building. WTF! It's common sense fellows! Maybe if you had the MPO at the Hydrant, Depts. wouldn't have to worry about the Hydrant Gremlins shutting off hydrants like they did to NRFD on I believe, Fountain Pl?

So that engine company has a sustained water supply much faster? The downside is? Sounds like maybe you're lamenting over other issues besides the numbers on any given piece.

Nobody's lamenting over anything. How about doing a "Reverse Lay" like FDNY who everyone always makes reference to and praises and letting the MPO make the hydrant and having your 2nd backstep men, if you have the wishful thinking of 4 on a Rig, pull the hose and the Officer act as an Officer? No reason the MPO can't make the water supply, instead of having the 2nd back step man make the hydrant. Something tells me he'd be better off ifo the fire building stretching hose no? Or is doing a "Forward Lay" Job Security for some Depts. and that justifies 4 on a Rig?