FD7807

let me weigh in on this- I have been quiet too long. NYS OFPC has set the standard--let me explain-- FF1-FF2-survival-FAST-RES tec-Eng Co operations-truck co ops-haz mat the list goes on. add them up and guess what you come up with the career standard or close enough. give or take a few hours. so the career firefighters get all of this at one shot we call it probie school or Career Academy or what ever name you want to give it. On the other side OFPC has divided all the classes into separate training modules. so it is possible and is being done by firefighters all over NYS just in a different manner.
So the Training is out there just in different formats.
Now for the quid pro quo--is spelling and grammar correct??
OFPC has left it to--"AHJ" authority having jurisdiction---gotta love spell check to establish the standards for individual fire departments.
The State legislature has established the Standard for fire departments with more then five personnel. that would be the 229 hour standard we have in NYS.
So the Career department are mandated by State Legislature and the other departments aren't-with the exception of OSHA and haz mat.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday season and above all be safe out there.

I may regret ever bringing this up. And before I do let me start by saying I believe we need to stress conditioning and prepare our members for the worst and hopefor the best. That said this station test seems a bit over the top. I mean what firefighter has ever gotten off a rig then dragged hose, carried hose, forced a door, pulled a ceiling, carried and set up a ground ladder then saved someone all on 1 bottle ? I get we need to stress fitness but department medicals should weed out those who should not be going interior. This is just my opinion. I yhink this agility is a bit over the top.

As I said in my last reply I think that this is in general a good thing. However as others have pointed out it has you doing things on air that you simply would not do normally on air. That being said I can see that doing the whole test on air is a way of seeing how long you can make the air last. I don't think we can justify any training or testing initiative based on how close it is to the Scott Firefighter Challenge. As fun as it is to watch, that is like making the Midnight Alarm or Bucket Brigade contests from a muster part of your FF1 practical.
I like that Erie County concept and it could easily be adapted as the hours go up in various subjects. I have often wondered why we did not embrace the exterior positions from a training standpoint as a fire service. Regardless of if we like them or not, there are departments that utilize them and failing to develop training for these members is allowing them to go untrained.
Several times when I was involved with recruitment, we would get potential members that just wanted to be drivers. I have mixed feelings on that, as I knew that we needed more firefighters, but could also benefit from these drivers as they would free up a firefighter from driving. Two cases I know of caused me to rethink my initial objections, one was a guy who drove a dump truck and another was a transit bus driver. Both had CDL's and both had worked (although not in an emergency setting) with various electronic and hydraulic devices on vehicles. It seemed to me that they had at least the aptitude to take training, but there was no class for them. I thought of trying to develop an internal course, but then the question arises of who would accept that course other than us? In CT at least FF1 is a prerequisite for Pump Operator or Ariel Operator, so there goes that idea.
As for the actual job title, sure we could call them Exterior Fire Service Technicians but the bottom line is the public would very quickly shorten that to Firefighter because they do not know any better. We could give them different styles and colors of helmets but that would only last as far as the district border, or if you are lucky a state border. We could buy fancy stickers but those are really only good until the first fire or even drill you go into. So while I agree that the public should be better informed, they are not, and I am not sure it is a good use of limited resources to devote that much public education time to this issue when there are fire prevention and Homeland Security matters that are more pressing.

how come in rockland county they dont have these problems ?bickering and resentment divisiveness? why only in westchester ?

Why? Because there are many such as myself who for health reasons can not wear a mask but can perform most of the other duties that need to be done. I speak for myself when I say the pension program is not my motive for staying. You hands down win the training argument and bring up some very good points. It is what it is. There is clearly a different standard unlike other states but as far as fitness this is a problem both in career and volunteer departments more so in volunteer departments I taught at the training center for many years and have seen guys on both sides of the fence with weight issues. Lets work to fix that.

Listen you can spin it how you want to spin it but not every FF and PO trained in say 1998 received the same training as a FF or PO trained today. The job is always evolving and so are training standards. This has turned into Career FF vs. Volunteer FF 9.0 as is usually the case on this site. Are there some Volunteers that act the part of 'the jolly volly"? Sure. But not every career FF is professional and the notion that they are is ludicrous. Enough already.

here is something to help you understand my point. The average citizen doesnt know or care who is called what as long as their local FD is doing their job. Departments should not be sending exterior guys to do an interior job. To me it should be less about what we call them and more about clearly defining what those classifications are.

Thst was my big issue from the get go. A 30 minute bottle which we all know doesnt mean 30 minutes is not fair for a guy to carry hose, drag a dummy, open a ceiling, force a door, set up a 2 section ladder, and carry a saw. Period.

So all this back and forth is about a title ? Really ? Come on guys is this what it has come to ? What should we call those who do not go interior so we can move on from this lunacy ?

.it is an addition if it was not required and now is. AAgain not fighting the need I am simply saying that 1 cylindar to do all that in succession itome seems a bit much. And to the memberwho said we need 1 standard for all firefighters in lieu of interior and exterior thats nuts. Every FD and PD has people on full time desk duty. There is a job for everyone in this service.

This is probably in the long run a good thing.
I agree that doing a series of tasks in short order on a single bottle of air is unrealistic, unless we are going to drop that pesky rehab standard that was implemented a few years ago. You know the one that limits the time you can work without a rest period. Which probably would prevent you from doing a rapid series of tasks on a single bottle on a fire ground.
As for the ability of the instructors to do this, I would be willing to bet that most can, however we all know guys who while mostly good at what they do have made teaching their main career and have not been in a fire in years. I have a feeling that this is who will be questioned, not the younger gung ho guys who nobody doubts can do the job.
As for a single standard, that is good in theory but has some problems in practice. The ability of someone in a career department to spend more time training is a reality that we have to face. The ability of a department to order someone to attend an academy on a full time basis is simply not there in a volunteer department or even some smaller career departments. a 14 week academy is over 500 hours, when I took FF1 is was about 120, the same for FF2 which together equal about half of that time. So how long would it take to run that full time standard on a part time basis?
I doubt that this standard will be applied to existing personnel, much in the same way that the CPAT was not. The concept of grandfathering is alive and well and in most cases reasonably applied in the fire service. So a single standard if possible will take years to implement, possibly 20 or more.
I don't think we need to get rid of support positions or exterior positions, although they probably need to be standardized as everyone seems to define them slightly differently. No matter the kind of department the guy who only files paperwork does not need to pass an interior standard any more than a paramedic does, as neither one is going into a burning building any time soon.

.it is an addition if it was not required and now is. AAgain not fighting the need I am simply saying that 1 cylindar to do all that in succession itome seems a bit much. And to the memberwho said we need 1 standard for all firefighters in lieu of interior and exterior thats nuts. Every FD and PD has people on full time desk duty. There is a job for everyone in this service.

I may regret ever bringing this up. And before I do let me start by saying I believe we need to stress conditioning and prepare our members for the worst and hopefor the best. That said this station test seems a bit over the top. I mean what firefighter has ever gotten off a rig then dragged hose, carried hose, forced a door, pulled a ceiling, carried and set up a ground ladder then saved someone all on 1 bottle ? I get we need to stress fitness but department medicals should weed out those who should not be going interior. This is just my opinion. I yhink this agility is a bit over the top.

I don't know about district policies, but for myself, I will buy "Made in America" over foreign sourced whenever possible. This is especially true when I buy tools. It makes sense to me to pay twice as much for USA rather than China, etc and end up having to replace it often.

if you knew me you would in mind thatnow that statement to be false. Making sweeping generalizations helps no one. Being narrow minded about all volunteers is your right so go right ahead but keep in mind that thereis always someone who has seen more and done more then you. Snicker at the Cold Spring guys and get your yucks in. That doesnt make you orofessional. It makes you pathetic

I disagree. Insulting the individual who stated how hot the fire was helps no one. Maybe it was really hot who knows I was not there and neither was Res24cue. Not every Volunteer agency is a group of jolly vollies. Assuming that is like assuming that every career FD &PD agency is professional and we all know yhat is not true. Focus on the good and you shall find good. Focus on crap and you shall find crap.

Is that not what the vast majority of people in any organization do? Career, volunteer it doesn't matter, it's the same on that front. Most people want to coast along, not ruffling feathers, so they turn a blind eye. Worse though is the constant din of whining and complaining without action. How many guys show up to work at their firehouse and b**** and moan all day long about this, that or the other thing but do absolutely nothing but flap their gums about it? Same in Vollywood, members come out of the woodwork to cry and whine at the monthly meeting but are nowhere to be found when it comes time to do the work of fixing their gripes. So it was, so it is and so it shall be.
Complaining, bitching, whining, finger-pointing, that's the easy part, which is why so many people are so good at it. Although the specifics may be different, all of us who strive to be better tomorrow than we are today face that same endless chorus from the choir of the loud, the ignorant and the blind within our departments..and we all have them, in fact at times we ourselves will play a part in the symphony too. Those who are true to themselves, to their departments and most importantly to those they serve will rise above that din and take the harder road And while they may complain the loudest they are also the ones who lead the charge in tackling the problems. Sometimes they make a difference, sometimes not but they do not give up, they do not run away and they do not denigrate the actions of others without first walking in their shoes.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but like most I too notice an abundance of generally negative comments about volunteers here. Now there are times when maybe these views have merit and times when maybe they don't but the point is everyone here has the right to express them. What is important is what we do with those views. As I see it, and again I'm speaking only for myself, I often use them as a tool. I will read something inflammatory or derogatory or negative and instead of getting angry or offended I will ask myself "is that me? Is that my department? If so, what can be done about it? This site and others like it and everything that's posted on them offer a wealth of information and knowledge, but it is up to us to take advantage of that opportunity...for even the most negative of comments or opinions can offer us a means to better ourselves.
Stay safe all and take the high road, the low one is too full of complainers, whiners and malcontents already.

Those sound like the words of a man who didn't just say I want to leave on top. I believe you are using a little creative writing yourself. And another thing, do you actually know this "bunch of losers" or is this just your general assumption of the group. The fact that you seem to know so much about them really impresses me. Now please tell me how many houses and people you have saved, not to mention how many you are currently saving since relieving the taxpayers by no longer volunteering.
Now what this really sounds like is a former volley whacker who is butthurt because there were no newspapers that through the use of some creative writing made him look amazing.
Last part of this rant is had they made an interior attack on this fire and someone became injured would you be a critic to say that should have been outside. With all the wisdom that you brought to this discussion I can not see why Chief was not on your list of glorious positions held in just another volunteer fire co.

I agree, his posts are intelligent. But the never-ending "Debbie Downer" stuff based upon his experience in his department is getting tired. Not every department is a group of morons as portrayed in many of his (and others') posts.

I disagree. Insulting the individual who stated how hot the fire was helps no one. Maybe it was really hot who knows I was not there and neither was Res24cue. Not every Volunteer agency is a group of jolly vollies. Assuming that is like assuming that every career FD &PD agency is professional and we all know yhat is not true. Focus on the good and you shall find good. Focus on crap and you shall find crap.

if you knew me you would in mind thatnow that statement to be false. Making sweeping generalizations helps no one. Being narrow minded about all volunteers is your right so go right ahead but keep in mind that thereis always someone who has seen more and done more then you. Snicker at the Cold Spring guys and get your yucks in. That doesnt make you orofessional. It makes you pathetic

I am not a regular EMTBRAVO poster but felt that your posts In this thread are ignorant, immature and juvenile. I am not sure what career FD you came from nor do I care but i can guarantee that you had members who did your municipality proud and others who coasted thru their years doing the bare minimum and did nothing to further move the fire service forward. Try focusing on what is right with the fire service or better yet join your local volunteer FD and show them how its done

I for one do NOT wish he "would just go away". Mr. Res24cue has just as much right as anyone else here to post his opinions, even if they may not be the most popular, and frankly I enjoy reading them, they offer a wonderful insight. Beyond that his views offers us a perfect picture of what I described earlier in this thread about the cancer of the "us against them" mentality, which if we let it is a disease which will slowly erode the true meaning of service. Better to have those views expressed out in public so they can be dealt with than to leave them lingering in the darkness behind closed doors where they are far more insidious and damaging.

So its a no no when vollys take pictures at a fire but its ok when paid guy do it???????? Heck there are websites that show the almighys fdny grandstanding and taking company photos at a fire. But thats ok. I have more respect for people who do the job for FREE then somone who does it for the $$$ and 3/4.