thebreeze

I don't think it is at all reasonable to compare the history of Westchester County Emergency Services to the history of any of those cities departments, and it is simply absurd to compare it to art in general, or history as a whole. Thats like comparing visiting the Museum of Natural History with stopping at a truck stop that has the worlds biggest ball of twine. Even with the rich history of the cities you mentioned, their museums aren't worth more than a few hours, or more than one visit. Does everything that has happened need a museum? Does every facet of society that has advanced in the past 200 odd years need its own museum, and if so do we need one of these museums for every geographical subdivision? No, because national, well established, well funded, and professionally run museums take on the task of representing all these things as a whole for the entire nation. It's a great idea for individual departments to preserve their own history as they see fit, so as to pass it on down to their future members, thats called tradition. Just like you would keep family heirlooms and keepsakes to pass on to your own children to teach them about their families history. History, tradition, and understanding the sacrifices of those who came before you are important parts of the fire service and all emergency services. The place for handing down these things to future generations however, is not in a museum, but in the fire house, during training, or while critiquing a call. The senior men need to pass these things on, and the junior members need to pick the brains of these senior guys or all the tradition that makes our jobs great will disappear.

Maybe the man was just a little upset that his property was burning down, maybe we should put ourelves in his shoes for a minute. Perhaps he was upset with the fact that a man with fire department credentials, which he probably assumes makes him a firefighter, was doing nothing to help while his barn burned. People sometimes do things they wouldn't normally do when they are faced with a crisis, lets cut the guy a little slack and wait for the facts before we basically start accusing the guy of arson.

With everything that is going on today in the fire service the last thing we should be worrying about is a museum. There isn't enough money to go around as it is, and anyone with the free time to contribute to a museum could use that time to lobby for things that we actually need in the fire service. If we keep wasting our time on things like this that are trivial to our profession we are going to be creating some new exhibits for this museum. Hey kids look at the adequate staffing exhibit, that was back when we worried about manpower and doing our job safely and effectively. How about an exhibit detailing all the things we fought for and then rolled over and slept while they were taken away, like good benefits, collective bargaining rights, merit based employment, and presumptive health bills. People have it out for the fire service right now and we need to focus on protecting what we have fought for rather than waste time and money waxing nostalgic about what used to be. Take care of the futures of you and your brothers before you worry about all the buffs who want to gawk at an antique pumper. Tradition is great and its an important part of the fire service and emergency services in general, but we need to protect ourselves and the profession that has allowed this tradition to be passed on otherwise it is going to disappear forever.

I don't think it is at all reasonable to compare the history of Westchester County Emergency Services to the history of any of those cities departments, and it is simply absurd to compare it to art in general, or history as a whole. Thats like comparing visiting the Museum of Natural History with stopping at a truck stop that has the worlds biggest ball of twine. Even with the rich history of the cities you mentioned, their museums aren't worth more than a few hours, or more than one visit. Does everything that has happened need a museum? Does every facet of society that has advanced in the past 200 odd years need its own museum, and if so do we need one of these museums for every geographical subdivision? No, because national, well established, well funded, and professionally run museums take on the task of representing all these things as a whole for the entire nation. It's a great idea for individual departments to preserve their own history as they see fit, so as to pass it on down to their future members, thats called tradition. Just like you would keep family heirlooms and keepsakes to pass on to your own children to teach them about their families history. History, tradition, and understanding the sacrifices of those who came before you are important parts of the fire service and all emergency services. The place for handing down these things to future generations however, is not in a museum, but in the fire house, during training, or while critiquing a call. The senior men need to pass these things on, and the junior members need to pick the brains of these senior guys or all the tradition that makes our jobs great will disappear.

Money always has to come from somewhere, just because the government doesn't take it straight from the taxpayers hands and hand it to a museum desn't mean that the museum or the people running it aren't doing so at your expense. Almost all museums receive tax exemptions, revenue lost in one area has to be made up in another, and for a museum to run totally off of donations and be well off enough to really do a good job of showcasing whatever it covers, well that would be quite a lot of donations. Something that I don't think you are going to see in this economy, especially with such a specific audience who has an interest in something like an emergency services museum for just one county. The entirely unique exhibits of the Museum of Natural History draw millions of visitors from around the world every year from which to solicit donations, I don't think the Westchester County Emergency Services museum would have quite the same draw or donation pool.
As far of the Hall of Flame museum goes it is run by the National Historical Fire Foundation, its a museum that showcases the fire service on a national and even international level, it covers multiple continents not just one county so while they are funded mostly by donations, they have a fairly larger base to solicit from. Also its tax exempt, so again, not putting anything into the system, just taking from people who do.
Insofar as how your city chose to handle it, it seems the museum is going to be administrated by the Old Settlers Association which is, tax exempt. This good ol boys association, (founded to hold confederate soldiers reunions, and the only way to become a member is to be a direct descendant of someone who lived there before 1900), only has about 300 members so I don't think they operate on membership dues, and judging from their IRS filings it doesn't look like they run totally on donations either. In fact they seem to own a few trailer parks which they rent out space in, I am assuming to people who are not eligible to join their association. The money always comes from somewhere and right now noone in Westchester has any to give! So until some super Westchester buff wins the lotto and opens his own museum that he actually wants to share with the general publis, I think we are out of luck.

I am a volunteer, and if it isn't already obvious, I don't like going to parades. Sounds like I just got up and addressed a room of parade haters anonymous. The only agenda I have here is to get people to take a look within their own departments and evaluate what the actual priorities are. Whats more important, going to parades, or ensuring that your community has the best possible coverage day and night? As for those of you who say you have better coverage on days with parades I find this pretty disturbing, where are these people the rest of the time? Why is a day with a parade more important to cover? My point is that everyone seems to get so geared up for parade season but when it comes to important issues like manpower and response times most everyone throws up a wall and doesn't really want to discuss it or immediately starts calling it a volly bashing. To the people that make sure they have adequate coverage on the day of a parade, why don't you do this everyday, and to the people who don't ensure coverage, well like BNechis said, why are you even there at all? As far as this being a paid vs volunteer debate I really don't see how you could make that assertion. The practice of taking units and members out of service, and out of district, for a parade, is as far as I know exclusive to the volunteer service. I don't know of any career departments that follow this practice, this isn't a paid vs. career issue, this is a topic meant to get you thinking about where your priorities should be, and where they actually are.
(Also I did not in fact know how to search, I'll try it out if I ever create another thread)

Just because it was asked before doesn't mean it was answered, in previous threads it was mostly people just trying to defend what their departments do rather than answer the actual question, which leads me to believe that they have their own doubts about their own departments practices. StopGoBlue, I appreciate your response, sounds pretty reasonable in terms of apparatus depending on how far away the parade is, however, saying plenty of manpower doesn't really specifically address my question as to how many interior members are available. Sounds like you come from a fairly large department and are lucky enough to have a large membership, a better way to ask for you may be to address what percentage of your interior qualfied firefighters attend the parade and what percentage are actually available to provide coverage back at home.

Its that time of the year again, time to leave your district with little or no coverage to make people in another district( sometimes far enough away to be in a different area code/county/state) think that you have a full fledged state of the art firefighting force. Little do they know that what they see is usually all you have, and as for for coverage back home there may as well be a few cows wandering around the empty bays in your firehouse. Don't jump on me right away, I have seen things like this go on in a few different departments. My question to all of you who are so eager to share parade dates and shine each others brass is; when you go out of district, what apparatus do you take, who do you take, what rigs do you leave behind, who stays in the district, and what percentage of your those people who stay behind are interior firefighters? Just curious.

Our national deficit gets hashed, rehashed, and beaten to death every year. Doesn't seem like we have found a solution for that yet either so I guess we should just give up dialogue about it? Talking about something isn't solving a problem but its a means with which to start the ball rolling in order to effect change. What I think are some fairly egregious breaches of the public trust have been discussed here and for the most part everyone seems to either find no fault with it or wishes to turn a blind eye and hope it will either go away or someone else will deal with it. Well change comes from within and if you really care about the job you are supposed to be doing then maybe you should get involved in the discussion. Not only here but maybe the next time you are at the firehouse and everyone is getting ready for the parade. Maybe you may want to interrupt someone from shining the tires and say, "hey, who and what is going to be here while everyone else is 25 minutes away?" Especially if you plan on staying back, because you don't want to be the one standing there holding your hat trying to explain to a taxpayer why a fire in their garbage can that should have been out in minutes is now the Great Dustbin Conflagration of 2011. I understand staffing in the volunteer service is tough, and you'd be hard put to come by a district that can meet NFPA standards 24/7. I also understand that for the most part we all try to do our best to remedy this situation and whether many of you like to admit it or not we all know its a problem. My real problem with parades is that when we already know there is a problem, many of us actively take part in making it worse, and even if its just for a few days a year, thats too many. If you really want to go to parades that badly why don't you get several departments together, hash out how man guys each department can spare without compromising staffing( at least not any worse than a normal day), acquire a parade rig (I am sure one of the departments you band together with at least has a spare if not an antique), and all march together. For those of you who want to bring company pride and respect into this, company pride isn't something you can be awarded by a judge for walking down the street. Its not something the public is going to judge you on or give to you. Its the respect you're going to get from other companies and departments who see you doing your job and doing it well.

Our national deficit gets hashed, rehashed, and beaten to death every year. Doesn't seem like we have found a solution for that yet either so I guess we should just give up dialogue about it? Talking about something isn't solving a problem but its a means with which to start the ball rolling in order to effect change. What I think are some fairly egregious breaches of the public trust have been discussed here and for the most part everyone seems to either find no fault with it or wishes to turn a blind eye and hope it will either go away or someone else will deal with it. Well change comes from within and if you really care about the job you are supposed to be doing then maybe you should get involved in the discussion. Not only here but maybe the next time you are at the firehouse and everyone is getting ready for the parade. Maybe you may want to interrupt someone from shining the tires and say, "hey, who and what is going to be here while everyone else is 25 minutes away?" Especially if you plan on staying back, because you don't want to be the one standing there holding your hat trying to explain to a taxpayer why a fire in their garbage can that should have been out in minutes is now the Great Dustbin Conflagration of 2011. I understand staffing in the volunteer service is tough, and you'd be hard put to come by a district that can meet NFPA standards 24/7. I also understand that for the most part we all try to do our best to remedy this situation and whether many of you like to admit it or not we all know its a problem. My real problem with parades is that when we already know there is a problem, many of us actively take part in making it worse, and even if its just for a few days a year, thats too many. If you really want to go to parades that badly why don't you get several departments together, hash out how man guys each department can spare without compromising staffing( at least not any worse than a normal day), acquire a parade rig (I am sure one of the departments you band together with at least has a spare if not an antique), and all march together. For those of you who want to bring company pride and respect into this, company pride isn't something you can be awarded by a judge for walking down the street. Its not something the public is going to judge you on or give to you. Its the respect you're going to get from other companies and departments who see you doing your job and doing it well.

This is a ridiculous statement. What you are referring to is a combination department, not a career department. The career member in question was almost certainly directed to drive the apparatus to the parade by his volunteer "superiors", who very probably refer to him (with intent and purpose) as "driver", not "Firefighter".
Kudos to the many level headed, volunteers who care about their community and have had the courage to criticize in this thread the disgraceful practice of taking apparatus out of their district for a parade.
I do have an agenda about lots of issues. One of my issues (concerns) is the ridiculous and hypocritical practice of bringing apparatus to parades outside of the district. I hear constantly about the need for funding and incentives to recruit to fill the diminishing ranks of volunteer firefighters who will "save the community the enormous cost of a paid fire department" (btw always using the word "paid" as opposed to "career"...this too is done with intent and purpose)...It is also incessantly and inanely regurgitated that "volunteers and career guys are the same and provide the same level of service"...The practice of bringing apparatus and a large percentage of members to parades outside district flies directly in the face of these statements.
It is apparent that this is a legitimate issue and it is not unfair basing of volunteer by career members. Many volunteer firefighters are ethical and have common sense enough to realize that this archaic practice no longer has a place in the fire service if "we", yes "we" (career and volunteer) take the oaths we have sworn to our community's seriously. Many volunteer firefighters have stated so in this thread and in other threads previously...
Are we beating a dead horse? Absolutely not! The problem still exists! Any avenue available to expose this problem for what it is should be taken. Many people outside of the fire service are unaware of this situation and many inside of the fire service are complacent and / or resistant to change. So, those of us who have an agenda will repeat our mantra...most others will remain on the sidelines, some may feel inspired to join in and speak up for positive change, and of course we will always have those individuals who will rationalize, attack the messenger, or blame shift.
Eventually though, apparatus in out of district parades will go the way of horse drawn engines, wooden ladders, and pullup rubber boots (Lord, how I miss those!)
Hopefully, the discarding of this practice will happen as the result of rational, forward thinking fire service leaders and not as a consequence of a high- profile tragedy.

Its that time of the year again, time to leave your district with little or no coverage to make people in another district( sometimes far enough away to be in a different area code/county/state) think that you have a full fledged state of the art firefighting force. Little do they know that what they see is usually all you have, and as for for coverage back home there may as well be a few cows wandering around the empty bays in your firehouse. Don't jump on me right away, I have seen things like this go on in a few different departments. My question to all of you who are so eager to share parade dates and shine each others brass is; when you go out of district, what apparatus do you take, who do you take, what rigs do you leave behind, who stays in the district, and what percentage of your those people who stay behind are interior firefighters? Just curious.

Its that time of the year again, time to leave your district with little or no coverage to make people in another district( sometimes far enough away to be in a different area code/county/state) think that you have a full fledged state of the art firefighting force. Little do they know that what they see is usually all you have, and as for for coverage back home there may as well be a few cows wandering around the empty bays in your firehouse. Don't jump on me right away, I have seen things like this go on in a few different departments. My question to all of you who are so eager to share parade dates and shine each others brass is; when you go out of district, what apparatus do you take, who do you take, what rigs do you leave behind, who stays in the district, and what percentage of your those people who stay behind are interior firefighters? Just curious.

Its that time of the year again, time to leave your district with little or no coverage to make people in another district( sometimes far enough away to be in a different area code/county/state) think that you have a full fledged state of the art firefighting force. Little do they know that what they see is usually all you have, and as for for coverage back home there may as well be a few cows wandering around the empty bays in your firehouse. Don't jump on me right away, I have seen things like this go on in a few different departments. My question to all of you who are so eager to share parade dates and shine each others brass is; when you go out of district, what apparatus do you take, who do you take, what rigs do you leave behind, who stays in the district, and what percentage of your those people who stay behind are interior firefighters? Just curious.

Its that time of the year again, time to leave your district with little or no coverage to make people in another district( sometimes far enough away to be in a different area code/county/state) think that you have a full fledged state of the art firefighting force. Little do they know that what they see is usually all you have, and as for for coverage back home there may as well be a few cows wandering around the empty bays in your firehouse. Don't jump on me right away, I have seen things like this go on in a few different departments. My question to all of you who are so eager to share parade dates and shine each others brass is; when you go out of district, what apparatus do you take, who do you take, what rigs do you leave behind, who stays in the district, and what percentage of your those people who stay behind are interior firefighters? Just curious.

I respect your opinion, and don't think its a horribly bad idea but I think it is highly impractical. Volleys barely have enough time to do mandatory training, I doubt that they will give up what little time they have to spend there. But what about the basics though: who will pay for the construction of this building if Westchester will not allow the use of one of their buildings, grants cannot pay for everything, where will they the money for the bills. Plus what will you put in there, I don't think many departments will step up and give their old trucks up to be here. I think there is way too much that needs to be put into this and don't see it ever happening.
Just my opinion though others may and probably will think differently.
Thanks

And by the way it's Museum

With the general population not giving a crap about what we do anyways, and then to ask for money to fund the place, I never see this happening, nor do I want to see it happen. It is a waste of money that can be better spent else where.

SOP is for the engine to stop with the back of the rig parallel to the entrance to the fire building, the men then stretch 1 3/4" or 2 1/2" into the building depending on the size and nature of the fire. The chauffeur then drives to the hydrant and connects or if this is not possible (because a truck blocked him out) he can be supplied or stretch 3 1/2" back to a previous hydrant. FDNY uses dead lays, nothing is preconnected, it is up to the control man to determine how much hose is needed, pull it, break the line, give it to the chauffeur and provide the chauffeur with the details of the stretch. The high rise packs are for use in high rise buildings with standpipe systems. These standpipe systems are supplied by either a gravity tank on the roof or a main fed pump, all of these systems can also be supplemented by an engine streching 3 1/2" hose to the siamese connection.

This is not text book, the engine is facing the wrong way, forcing the men to stretch around the rig, the truck and engine are nosed into one another, if the engine chauffeur had a bad hydrant he is now screwed and either has to back stretch 3 1/2" by hand to another hydrant or be supplied, and as far as the few guys you see RUNNING, slow down, act like you've done this before, can't help anyone if you break your back slipping on ice. Aside from that, good aerial placement, and this really isn't a long stretch at all, 5 lengths maybe 6 for good luck. Every stretch is harder without that fifth man though, 2nd due engine comes into play huge here, especially with the hassle of stretching around the rig.

SOP is for the engine to stop with the back of the rig parallel to the entrance to the fire building, the men then stretch 1 3/4" or 2 1/2" into the building depending on the size and nature of the fire. The chauffeur then drives to the hydrant and connects or if this is not possible (because a truck blocked him out) he can be supplied or stretch 3 1/2" back to a previous hydrant. FDNY uses dead lays, nothing is preconnected, it is up to the control man to determine how much hose is needed, pull it, break the line, give it to the chauffeur and provide the chauffeur with the details of the stretch. The high rise packs are for use in high rise buildings with standpipe systems. These standpipe systems are supplied by either a gravity tank on the roof or a main fed pump, all of these systems can also be supplemented by an engine streching 3 1/2" hose to the siamese connection.

SOP is for the engine to stop with the back of the rig parallel to the entrance to the fire building, the men then stretch 1 3/4" or 2 1/2" into the building depending on the size and nature of the fire. The chauffeur then drives to the hydrant and connects or if this is not possible (because a truck blocked him out) he can be supplied or stretch 3 1/2" back to a previous hydrant. FDNY uses dead lays, nothing is preconnected, it is up to the control man to determine how much hose is needed, pull it, break the line, give it to the chauffeur and provide the chauffeur with the details of the stretch. The high rise packs are for use in high rise buildings with standpipe systems. These standpipe systems are supplied by either a gravity tank on the roof or a main fed pump, all of these systems can also be supplemented by an engine streching 3 1/2" hose to the siamese connection.

SOP is for the engine to stop with the back of the rig parallel to the entrance to the fire building, the men then stretch 1 3/4" or 2 1/2" into the building depending on the size and nature of the fire. The chauffeur then drives to the hydrant and connects or if this is not possible (because a truck blocked him out) he can be supplied or stretch 3 1/2" back to a previous hydrant. FDNY uses dead lays, nothing is preconnected, it is up to the control man to determine how much hose is needed, pull it, break the line, give it to the chauffeur and provide the chauffeur with the details of the stretch. The high rise packs are for use in high rise buildings with standpipe systems. These standpipe systems are supplied by either a gravity tank on the roof or a main fed pump, all of these systems can also be supplemented by an engine streching 3 1/2" hose to the siamese connection.

SOP is for the engine to stop with the back of the rig parallel to the entrance to the fire building, the men then stretch 1 3/4" or 2 1/2" into the building depending on the size and nature of the fire. The chauffeur then drives to the hydrant and connects or if this is not possible (because a truck blocked him out) he can be supplied or stretch 3 1/2" back to a previous hydrant. FDNY uses dead lays, nothing is preconnected, it is up to the control man to determine how much hose is needed, pull it, break the line, give it to the chauffeur and provide the chauffeur with the details of the stretch. The high rise packs are for use in high rise buildings with standpipe systems. These standpipe systems are supplied by either a gravity tank on the roof or a main fed pump, all of these systems can also be supplemented by an engine streching 3 1/2" hose to the siamese connection.

This is not text book, the engine is facing the wrong way, forcing the men to stretch around the rig, the truck and engine are nosed into one another, if the engine chauffeur had a bad hydrant he is now screwed and either has to back stretch 3 1/2" by hand to another hydrant or be supplied, and as far as the few guys you see RUNNING, slow down, act like you've done this before, can't help anyone if you break your back slipping on ice. Aside from that, good aerial placement, and this really isn't a long stretch at all, 5 lengths maybe 6 for good luck. Every stretch is harder without that fifth man though, 2nd due engine comes into play huge here, especially with the hassle of stretching around the rig.