16fire5

I hear that the armory won't be open this year?

That is correct. Something about they rented the place for the whole week?

While there are plenty of times I am happy I was not being taped it is the world we live in. So lets learn frome others mistakes. At car fires like this there is very little to gain but much to lose. The dangers at car fires are extensive and the byproducts of a burning car are probably the worst thing we come in contact on a regular basis. Don't rush, wear everything, use the reach of the stream, and approach at an angle. There was a recent article in Fire Engineering by a member of the YFD which hit the important stuff in depth. I did say very little to gain because they are good for training new members. Your nozzle team gets to work as a team on air to put out a fire. Have the forcible entry team work as a team and get the hood (after the fire is knocked down and bumpers and struts cooled) with the irons (it builds team work with the irons).

A lot of good points were made. Judging by the length of stretch and the position of the engine the companies may very well have operated alone. From what I see the first line when into the white PD. I think charging the second line in the street and trying to knock down some exterior fire and then into exposure 4 would be a good move. If I was stretching inside I would stick with 1 3/4" lines. The speed and manuverability are real important in PDs. I would guess that the line that goes into exposure 4 will probably need to address fire comming through a couple of windows and being able to move quickly is important. A 2 1/2" operated from the street along the exterior would be helpful but disipline is required so the line is not directed into any windows. The exposure problem is going to continue until the first line starts hitting the seat of the fire. Also if there are people trapped in the original fire building the possibility exists that the second line will be required there since it's entirely possible the first line will be committed to the first floor.

One thing that I would add is if the engine at this fire had been forced to backstretch because of hydrant positioning a real heads up move would be to drop the second line in the street.

They are subject to FOIL requests. Obviously there is information that is not subject to FOIL.

I think that we are missing something here. EMS contracts in this county change constantly, and people bounce from company to company, oftentimes working 3-4 agencies at any given time. While we have plenty of great providers, how do we make the business end of EMS work for the public we serve?

I would assert that 911 EMS needs to be a municipal service. Provided by the Fire Department, or a 3rd municipal service. Pay employees what they are worth for the work they do, allow some movement and a future for them (something few private sector companies in any industry can provide these days. Depending on what type of governmental entity they work for, billing can still be done to recover costs incurred for providing services.

It seems to be only the employees who lose here when contracts get bounced around and people have to bounce between agencies. Until the government powers give credibility to EMS agencies, or EMS in general, the days of contracts, politics, etc. will continue. Don't forget, the municipalities go for these agencies because they charge less than the actual cost of maintaining an ambulance and crew, hoping to make up the rest on billing revenue. I would challenge any City Manager/ Administrator to compare the costs of a private system and municipal system and see what the bottom line is. I don't think it would be too far off, and it would enable the municipality to have better control over the system, to ensure superior public safety.

In a lot of ways properly run fire based EMS has many benifits. The medics usually have more experience. Because of the better salary and working conditions fire based medics remain medics for a longer time. By rotating assignments (ride the truck one day an engine another and bus another) burnout can be prevented. Fire based EMS usually has better response time because of firehouse placement and ability to cross staff.

If EMS was a part of the fire department the providers would be paid a better wage, have better benifits, retirement, and would not have to worry about the contract changing every few years threating their livelyhood. I'm sure MLSS will do a good job but on the human side I hope all the providers land on their feet.

Luckily E118 had their chains on

quote]

Conventional chains or on-spots? I think the conventional chains while sometimes a pain in the a** to put on are superior.

Wouldn't Poughkeepsie, Arlington, or Fairview have a better response time to Highland? I would assume they would be on the road upon dispatch due to career staffing. 17 minutes seems like a good time from Hughsonville to Highland but it's still a long time for interior firefighting without a safety valve (FAST).

Since voluteers are not employees, tough to apply. There are some thoughts of violation of penal law having to do with a minor in a hazerdous activity causing harm but that is 16 and below.

Chris192?

I think this is what your referring to.

S 260.10 Endangering the welfare of a child.

A person is guilty of endangering the welfare of a child when:

1. He knowingly acts in a manner likely to be injurious to the

physical, mental or moral welfare of a child less than seventeen years

old or directs or authorizes such child to engage in an occupation

involving a substantial risk of danger to his life or health

If the rig rolls anywhere your PPE should be on the rig, when company's go to parades you can't have your PPE on the rig or you will not win a trophy you might think judges could overlook this but no, not allowed. Also I have always thought parades were more for kids than anyone, and if you blow the horn or the siren like the kids want, you lose again. (unless it is your parade and you aren't being judged). So trophy's ruin it for the kids, sad huh. I do understand most concepts of the parade thing, just not my first choice.

The funniest thing about this is I believe that firemen's parades (No women in the fire service back then) were made to show off their equipment and how prepared for firefighting they were. Today an apparatus that is ready for fire duty probably won't place well in a parade.

They are. Our '02 has been retrofit with a "crew cab" MDT, as the they call it. This is one of the best ideas to come out of...well, wherever it came from. I can't tell you how often we're out on the road and a run comes in. Previously, the guy sitting with his back to the officer had to crane his neck around and try to see the MDT screen through the scratched plexi-glass. This was how you found out what you were going to. Now, when we get a run, we hear the MDT ring and up comes the info for all to see. We get incident information, location, the response rundown and hopefully C.I.D.S. for the building. As they say, size up begins at the receipt of the alarm ticket. It's an excellent tool.

I used to pass the ticket back to the outside team whenever there was info about roof access or lack of rear fire escapes in the CIDS. I actually forgot it was there today and was announcing the run on the HT when the chauffeur reminded me they have the screen. Just knowing who's 10-84 helps your size up with tool assignments and what line you will have.

Congradulations. Hope you didn't like sleep too much.

i have to say after reading some of these posts i have found that its making me upset. I am one of those people who loves nothing more then walking down a croweded street with the band infront jammin their hearts out. I am also the same person who would do anything to help a member of the community (as long as it doesnt involve snakes..trying to add some humor sorry.) in any way i can. of course i am a young buck i enjoy the pride i have putting on my uniform and marching down the street behind OLD GLORY and the company flag. it always gives me the reminder of why i joined the firehouse and why im doing what im doing. ive heard some people say that parades are a waste of taxpayers money, that they give good firefighters bad names, that they are a waste of time flat out. but i ask what about the social aspect?? meeting members of other departments that you may need one day to help u at a call?? who joined the fire/ems service to help their communtites as well?? arent we all in the same brother/sister hood??

Chief flynn, maybe its because some of us like to go take pictures of the equipment that is comming down the road, or maybe taking our famlies to watch, or maybe its catching up with old friends who u havent seen...no one knows the answers...atleast i know i dont...

Bro,

Reread the chief's original post. Nowhere is having pride in service to your community or parades discussed in a negative way. The question is how do communities ensure adequete protection when they attend out of town parades? Remember QTIP? Career firefighters march in parades too. I always enjoy Marching up 5th in mid March. Sometimes I just have to find someone who's name ends in a vowel to work for me so I can assure coverage. Again QTIP. Pride and esprit de corp are just as important in career firehouses. Think about it we spend 24 hours together in close quarters.

Judging by the 30 period they probably are circulating their intent to be lead agency for a coordinated review. The first step in the process for a project of this scope. Is the proposed new firehouse planned for the site of the current firehouse?

As for the MDT screen in the back it seems as though they are going around and intallling them on older rigs.

Capt,

Since I have gotten promoted I definatly read a lot more of these fatality reports. THe IAFF pushed hard for NIOSH to do these investigations so we could all learn from them and the contributing factors. I read one the other day that I recommend for anyone with the time.

http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/reports/fire/documents/fmloddhouston09.pdf

Helmet Cam Video: N.J. FF's Close Call

http://www.firehouse.com/topics/top-headlines/helmet-cam-video-nj-ffs-close-call

I don't even know where to start with this video. I'm usually the one saying it's easy to Monday morning qb and giving the benifit of the doubt but I think a good discussion on safety can be learned from this.

Right off the bat

1. We see the fire in and to the left. Yet there's a bunch of guys with a line and the nozzle on the little porch creating a traffic jam putting their regulators in. Get off to the side out of the venting smoke on a knee get your PPE squared away bleed the nozzle make entry and put out the fire.

2. A discussion is ongoing about who's inside how many? Obviously there are accountability issues. You must know who you have and a general idea where they are.

3. I hear a pass alarm going off as the guy is making his way to the back. Is anyone addressing it?

4. Why is a line operating from the exterior while interior operations are underway?

5. Obviously companies have been on scene at least a little while and a FAST and additional companies are being requested. This should have been requested quickly. We are more than 2 minutes into the video.

6. Differing people giving orders and they are contridictory. Honestly it looks to me as if the first and subsuquent lines should have gone through the front door. This is a basic concept. Protect the interior stairs and the escape route of the occupants. As the subsuquent lines come in they reinforce the first line, back it up, or go above for extension. This is a pretty fundamental concept of firefighting.

7. Now a member shows up in the window. They decide to move the ladder which under the circumstances is necessary.

8. Guy in the window has a haligan. He should have taken the window and the sash. I probably would have bought his some time by venting the heat and smoke a couple of feet above him while he waited for the ladder.

9. If you don't practice the basics like portable ladders it shows when the S* hits the fan. If you are going to ask the guy to come down head first the angle should have been decreased and footed. With all the people there with the ladder why didn't someone ascend to help the member down? You could have gone up and pinned the guy to the ladder for the descent. It wouldn't have been pretty but he probably wouldn't have fell.

10. Now the guy falls head first off the ladder. He is now out of the IDLH and immediate danger. I would have brought EMS back to him or had FF/EMTs board him. There was no good reason to handle him by dragging him to the front. It's a good idea at this point to question the downed FF about who was with him and their whereabouts.

11. Now the MAYDAY, first a roll call or PAR is needed a minute ago, assign a chief to supervise the mayday and give him resources and get him on another channel.

12. The practice of donning the facepiece without the regulator and walking around the fireground limits your field of vision greatly. Practice taking your knee and donning your facepiece and hood just prior to entering the IDLH. It allows you to see what your doing prior to entering, keeps your mask from fogging up, and limits your air consumption. At this fire its appears some firefighters may have used up their air prior to even operating inside.

My conclusions may not be entirely correct on all these items but this in no way seems like a smoothly run fire. No doubt these guys were faced with a working fire with entrappment and probably inadequete initial manpower. But if you train for the fundamental tasks you will be more efficent when adrenilin and emotions are high. Ever go to a fire when the fire department seems to be running the operation and not the fire running the fire department?

This incident really concerns me. I cannot recall ever hearing or reading of an incident of this type; an exploding dumpster that killed a firefighter. We've all seen BLEVEs in our time. I also recall one incident where firefighters were cutting open the side of a Silo with a partner saw, hosing down the blade to prevent sparks when the particulate matter inside the silo exploded, blowing the cut section out and killing a firefighter.

But this incident is unique. Naturally with hindsight it's easy to say the department involved should have been aware of the occupancy; an aluminum sand casting plant, that should have raised red flags with regard to the contents of the dumpster.

Do you know the industrial sites within your response area; what they manufacture, and what they would be disposing of as a biproduct of their manufacturing? Sure if you have a furniture plant in your district you would be aware of the fire load and chemical hazards within the plant, but how many of us have the awareness to think that the disposal areas outside the plant could be time-bombs just waiting for water to be added to create an explosion hazard?

In my time, the thing that most concerned me was auto-exposure from a dumpster to the structure itself. I mostly thought if the contents contained something dangerous it would be latex paint cans, or possibly spray paint. We had numerous dumpster fires, and pulled the engine close enough to extinguish the fire with a 100' trash line. But now, after this, I think I wouldn't do it anymore.

What about a gasoline can in the dumpster, like Bill pointed out? Or a discarded propane tank, that somebody just dropped in the garbage in the dark of night?

I really think this incident should be given GREAT attention by all fire departments. The NIOSH report should be poured over by everyone. And immediately, ALL dumpster fires should be approached as if they are ALL capable of exploding, and causing death or injury to firefighters.

How about this; if there is no exposure issue with a burning dumpster, why not just automatically create a hot-zone, and do not attempt to extinguish it? I mean, what are we actually "saving" anyway? A dumpster? Certainly not the contents. IMHO, let it burn out, and stay away.

This fatal incident should be given high priority and put all departments on notice to NOT continue business as usual. Dumpsters have become EXTREMELY hazardous, and ALL dumpster fires should be treated as haz-mat incidents from now on. For God sake, this thing went off like an IED!

The first paragraph was a Toluene tank in Phoenix, AZ. A common training video to illustrate tunnel vision. I respect Chief Buunacini while chief they shared the hard lessons they learned that resulted in line of duty deaths. This incident and the Supermarket fire that killed Bret Tarver immediatly come to mind.

On to the dumpster fire. I think you hit the nail on the head here Capt. when you say how the department and company must know their district. Knowing the products and the intracies of what goes on can guide the strategies and tactics for responses to the facility. And the strategy may very well have been to let it burn. Some of the sugestions of flooding or using the deck pipe all probably could have caused explosion because of the contents. Knowing you area and preplanning to often are taking a back seat to all the other things on our plate.

It's getting busy in that corporation counsel office.

If you are taking tax dollars from the town to provide the fire protection you are still subject to FOIL. Theoretically the taxpayers have more accountability with a fire district since they elect the commisioners and have public meetings that residents can voice concerns. In the fire protection districts protected by private not for profit membership corporations or whatever they are the public's input on fire protection is much more limited. I would say the only check on this is the contract in which the town or village may not have other options for fire protection. I think the perception that only us the fire department has the ability to make decisions on fire protection because we are the experts is arrogant. It disregards the fact that places like New York, Yonkers, New Rochelle ect. provide excellent fire protection where ultimate control lies with civillians. It is by no means perfect and it requires true leadership by our chiefs and our unions to advocate for firefighter and public safety.

It's tough to take how we are the devil now that the economy has gone bad. No lunch break crew integrity critical and yeah the commisioner is right the guys are always interacting with the public in a positive way. 99 out of 100 people I ever talked to in the supermarket were happy to see us. Plus we get the opportunity to dispel the myth that the city foots the bill for the meal.

Front suctions have a number of disadvantages:

The best one is many MPO's tend to nose the engine into the hydrant when they have it. This can push the tail end out into the street. At a MA call about 2 years ago I got a great pic of an engine doing just that and cutting off the tower ladder that was now 500 feet from the fire building.

When able we encourage our chauffeurs to paralel to the curb and use the 10' flexible lenght of suction hose we carry to make the hydrant connection. This tends to no interfere with ladder company apparatus positioning. And as stated above frequently when chauffeurs use the front suction they tend to leave the a** end of their rig in the street. This is not a hard fast rule in the department many companies and chauffeurs have personal preferences. In most cases our chauffeurs are protected by the street being close by PD, the block is gridlocked by the first alarm assignment and the ladder company usually enters the block after the engine and from the same direction so their positioning will in most cases protect the engine.

Also the points about the cost and inherent flaws with front suctions should make any department purchasing a new rig give it serious consideration. That money could be very well spent elsewhere if you ask me.

PFDRes47cue the point Bnechis is making is there are plenty of places with lower population densities than Westchester (we'll leave out St. Lawerence County) in NY that do a better job getting ambulances out and I might add staff them to an advanced level.

Are the Commisioners volunteers? Always thought that was a double standard. Career member of the district can not be elected commisioner because they would be their own boss but volunteers who do recieve compensation (The IRS says so) are permitted to be commisioners. I know the arguement the volunteers are knowledgeable about fire protection issues. Really? By what standard? At times it is probably difficult at best to be objective in a disagreement between the career and volunteer firefighters. Not everyone on a school board has an education background.

Unfortunatly as things stand now New York State Law does not allow Counties to operate Fire Departments. Regional departments are an option yet the waters have yet to be really tested. I believe we will start to see districts combining with the new allowances. I'm pretty sure FASNY and the Association of Fire Districts is still attempting to over turn these laws.

Before I retired, to my knowledge my job never as a practice put a FAST company, particularly a mutual-aid FAST to work, unless as required for a firefighter in distress. It should be illegal (even though it is a violation of the Standard, it doesn't have the teeth it should) to put a FAST company to work for other than FAST purposes with no other company on scene to IMMEDIATELY take it's place. If a firefighter is killed or injured because no FAST is available, the lawyers are going to feast on the IC, and the department. Just my opinion.

Capt. your 100% right the FAST should be reserved for firefighters in distress. I believe it would have teeth in the case of Mohegan since they have recently been cited by PESH for respiratory standard violations. Not having the required standby team at an IDLH would probably be considered a repeat violation by PESH and the potential always exists for serious repercutions. And of course the lawyers would have a field day.

To the Mohegan members take Chief Flynn's advice and don't take it personally no one on this thread questioned the effort or the tactics taken by members. The discussion for the most part involves the unsafe pratice of operating with an inadequete number of firefighters on scene.