16fire5

I'm not as concerned with the interior work, as I'd tend to try this with a 1.75" line while a 2.5" SB knocks down the fire in the garage. But I did want to comment about the 2 1/2" interior line. Maneuvering a 2 1/2" in a residential occupancy is nearly impractical, other than in the great rooms of some McMansions. The compartmentized nature of residential occupancies often make for far too many corners and quick turns for the big line.

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

Why do you infer that YFD is not the "real world"??
Why do you assume that I am advocating for WC DES?
I am surprised that you are apparently not aware of this but the concept of formal typing of resources, credentialing, and county coordinators coordinating, was not created by me. Since you are a retired supervisor in FDNY EMS I am surprised, first of all, that you can't conduct a civil disagreement without resorting to personal insult, and second of all, that you would propose such a haphazard and ineffective solution to a serious problem when the obvious solution is staring us right in the face and is apparently working just fine in counties throughout the U.S.
Professionals (which include both career and volunteer) must discipline themselves to not take these issues personally and to see the big picture. So, I didn't like your idea. Get over it. Admit I am right or make a better argument based on facts, not feelings.
To further illustrate my point I will use as an example a major terrorist attack or natural disaster with widespread media coverage. While it may feel good to respond from wherever you are with whatever you got and tell yourself that you are helping, it is recognized by professionals in this business that this type of response normally does more harm than good. The unitiated may ask, "how so? What can it hurt? And if our response saves a life or makes a job easier then it will have served its purpose, no?"...Well, no! Uncoordinated and undisciplined efforts typically do more harm than good. Communities are stripped of protection and the community where the major incident is occuring is overwhelmed by well meaning individuals with mostly the wrong equipment or skill set for what is required, and before long these 'helpers" who have crowded the area and slowed the response of those agencies who are actually requested and needed, are asking the already overwhelmed Incident Commander (or hopefully Incident Management Team) for food, fuel, bathrooms, and shelter. I realize this analogy is not exactly what we are talking about, but it's germane. Just because it feels good does not mean it's effective, and it may even be harmful.
Westchester County has people who are supposed to be coordinating all the emergency service assets of this county. I will not criticize them because I all too well realize that not every boss has adequate assets to accomplish everything he is tasked to do, so he or she must prioritize. Maybe that is the case in Westchester. If individuals such as yourself are concerned that this should be given a higher priority, why not use this forum to mobilize people to request / demand that assets be put in place or priorities shifted to accomplish this in a professional manner?
And please, lean away from the computer for a moment now before typing, take a deep breath, that's it...now let it out, and yes, qtip...

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

The Westchester County helicopter was requested for illumination but declined the mission because of wind conditions. The Bell 407 is a great helicopter but with the wind (40+ knots) coming over a ridgeline it was not a good environment for a light helicopter like that to attempt a rescue. State Police helicopters (based less than 5 miles away at Stewart) are also hoist equipped and they have three different airframes to choose from, Bell 407 (not a good choice), Bell 430 (twin engine medium duty aircraft), and a Huey (which may or may not be hoist equipped).
The NYPD Air-Sea Rescue aircraft will go virtually anywhere because of their agreement with the US Coast Guard and capabilities of their personnel an aircraft.
I'm not sure what you mean by "rigged for the mission intended" but the NYSP aircraft do have hoist capabilities. It is interesting that they were just doing hoist training last week but didn't complete this mission. There must have been some reason for that which we're not aware of.
According to the NYPD, they used a horse collar for the two cadets and the ESU member that was lowered to them wears a hoist/rappel harness. The collar cinches around the victim so it is very difficult to slip out. It sounds like the State Police were there and provided illumination for the NYPD.
The weather at Stewart Airport just a few miles north of the incident had sustained winds of 15-25 knots with gusts to 35-45 knots so it was absolutely an incredible feat to hover at the mountain where winds are notoriously faster and more turbulent. Kudos to the NYPD, this was a rescue that not alot of other agencies could have successfully pulled off.
Why this was done and a ground rescue was not performed - the NYPD rescued these recruits after midnight, more than six hours after they became trapped on the cliff and after other measures failed or were deemed too risky to attempt. Conditions were bad and the use of a helicopter was determined to be the best option to expeditiously resolve the incident.
The NYPD doesn't just "do" these types of rescues. They (management, pilot and crew, ESU members) measure the potential risk, the availability of other options, and the capabilities of crew and equipment. After that risk assessment the hoist rescue was chosen as the option of choice. WIth that said, I'm satisfied that it was the best option given the circumstances.
Finally, where does it say that these cadets were rappelling or were attached to ropes? It says they were "separated from their squad" during a training exercise. There's no mention of ropes at all.

Coffee, Hot Cocco, water gatoraid & donuts brought to the scene. New Rock opened up around 6am for rest rooms. EMS on standby...what more do you need.
We did not notice any issue from that. Bigger issue is Water comoany testified this fall infront of the Public Service Commission that they were reducing bressure with a new pump system, but volume would increase and we would have all the water we could eever need. Their pumps were at 100% and we needed more. At 100% they started to fail water mains. Most of the system is past its life expectancy and they have not done any major replacements in 40 years.
Add 2302-1 (covering city), 2302-3, 2302-4, 2303, 2305, 2306, 2309 and 23010
Unless it could bring more water it was not needed
Both D&D plus Twin Donut are 24 hour.
We could have used you anyway.

Due to the IAFFs ban? If they are FDNY members they resigned because they are not allowed to live in CT. I'm sure a lot of other things go into decision making like wives and kids and second jobs. Quit blaming the IAFF for the true external forces that have diminished volunteer numbers over the years. I'm begining to think this thread should be "Cogs position dosn't hold water"

Due to the IAFFs ban? If they are FDNY members they resigned because they are not allowed to live in CT. I'm sure a lot of other things go into decision making like wives and kids and second jobs. Quit blaming the IAFF for the true external forces that have diminished volunteer numbers over the years. I'm begining to think this thread should be "Cogs position dosn't hold water"

It was getting hard to follow so I pasted the thread back together.
Why do you think a career FF should be allowed to volunteer, but not obtain rank? SOunds like a double standard to me. Do you allow volunteers who are not managers in their careers be officers? What about police officers, if they are a Sgt can they be voted in above the VFD rank of LT.?
You want to promote the best, but you are willing to discriminate against career ff's because of their career. I do know a number of career firefighters who do not take promotional tests at work because they like being at the level they are. Often a promotion means losing ones house and becoming the detail officer or lose OT opertunities. They may make excellent officers, but the work rules are not always encouraging.

JM15-- some departments are way ahead of the curve--some are a little behind the 8 ball--some departments try and are inhibited by elected personel,some departments are inhibited by their own officers and chiefs. The fire world is not like it used to be--you need intelligent capable fire officers with an eye to the future not an eye looking over their shoulder to view the past. Just because you did it one way for 50 years dosent make it right. "Times they are a changing", Laws are there to protect us, elected officials in all towns and villages should be taking note as to what happened in Tarrytown and what is going to happen in Tarrytown.
Bad decisions just might end up in tragic events.

Sorry Brother, you are mistaken...............Most important position in the engine is the Chauffer......................Without any WATER, the Control Man's job is USELESS!

A close friend of mine (no emergency service involvement) had a scary incident while jumping his car this morning. He's a real technical guy but he got a little complacent. Which brings me to the topic. I'm finding that I'm constantly having to correct or stop firefighters while disconnecting batteries at MVA scenes. First too many guys have no respect for the hazards involved in what they are doing. Here's my thoughts.
Have a reason to disconnect. Patients still in the vehicle, fire hazard, anything legitimate is good with me but sometimes the car will be driven away or there are no hazards and no one is in the vehicle.
Use the right tools. I really can't bear to see the haligan used. It really can be a recipie for disaster. The haligan is more than long enough to accidently hit both battery terminals. Which believe me when I tell you is a bad sight.
Accessing the battery. When the car is totaled and all the fluids from the vehicle are now on the highway do we really need to use the forcible entry saw to open the hood and spray the entire area with sparks? I mean I thought that's why we disconnect in the first place to eliminate ignition sources.
I'd love to hear others thoughts on the topic.

While high rises are one reason for five firefighters even more challenging are the NFP buildings up to 7 stories tall that have no standpipe. Upper floor fires in these building frequently require stretches of over 10 lengths of hose i.e. 500'. With the officer directing the stretch and the chauffeur hooking up and the control firefighter at the back of the rig removing the hose and breaking the line for all intensive purposes it's 3 firefighters stretching. Anyone who has worked in both 4 and 5 firefighter engines realizes the difference is huge. While procedure does call for engines to team up and we do with the exception of fires in private houses the second engine is seldom on scene initially so the first engine bears the brunt of making the stretch alone.

A close friend of mine (no emergency service involvement) had a scary incident while jumping his car this morning. He's a real technical guy but he got a little complacent. Which brings me to the topic. I'm finding that I'm constantly having to correct or stop firefighters while disconnecting batteries at MVA scenes. First too many guys have no respect for the hazards involved in what they are doing. Here's my thoughts.
Have a reason to disconnect. Patients still in the vehicle, fire hazard, anything legitimate is good with me but sometimes the car will be driven away or there are no hazards and no one is in the vehicle.
Use the right tools. I really can't bear to see the haligan used. It really can be a recipie for disaster. The haligan is more than long enough to accidently hit both battery terminals. Which believe me when I tell you is a bad sight.
Accessing the battery. When the car is totaled and all the fluids from the vehicle are now on the highway do we really need to use the forcible entry saw to open the hood and spray the entire area with sparks? I mean I thought that's why we disconnect in the first place to eliminate ignition sources.
I'd love to hear others thoughts on the topic.

A close friend of mine (no emergency service involvement) had a scary incident while jumping his car this morning. He's a real technical guy but he got a little complacent. Which brings me to the topic. I'm finding that I'm constantly having to correct or stop firefighters while disconnecting batteries at MVA scenes. First too many guys have no respect for the hazards involved in what they are doing. Here's my thoughts.
Have a reason to disconnect. Patients still in the vehicle, fire hazard, anything legitimate is good with me but sometimes the car will be driven away or there are no hazards and no one is in the vehicle.
Use the right tools. I really can't bear to see the haligan used. It really can be a recipie for disaster. The haligan is more than long enough to accidently hit both battery terminals. Which believe me when I tell you is a bad sight.
Accessing the battery. When the car is totaled and all the fluids from the vehicle are now on the highway do we really need to use the forcible entry saw to open the hood and spray the entire area with sparks? I mean I thought that's why we disconnect in the first place to eliminate ignition sources.
I'd love to hear others thoughts on the topic.

A close friend of mine (no emergency service involvement) had a scary incident while jumping his car this morning. He's a real technical guy but he got a little complacent. Which brings me to the topic. I'm finding that I'm constantly having to correct or stop firefighters while disconnecting batteries at MVA scenes. First too many guys have no respect for the hazards involved in what they are doing. Here's my thoughts.
Have a reason to disconnect. Patients still in the vehicle, fire hazard, anything legitimate is good with me but sometimes the car will be driven away or there are no hazards and no one is in the vehicle.
Use the right tools. I really can't bear to see the haligan used. It really can be a recipie for disaster. The haligan is more than long enough to accidently hit both battery terminals. Which believe me when I tell you is a bad sight.
Accessing the battery. When the car is totaled and all the fluids from the vehicle are now on the highway do we really need to use the forcible entry saw to open the hood and spray the entire area with sparks? I mean I thought that's why we disconnect in the first place to eliminate ignition sources.
I'd love to hear others thoughts on the topic.

A close friend of mine (no emergency service involvement) had a scary incident while jumping his car this morning. He's a real technical guy but he got a little complacent. Which brings me to the topic. I'm finding that I'm constantly having to correct or stop firefighters while disconnecting batteries at MVA scenes. First too many guys have no respect for the hazards involved in what they are doing. Here's my thoughts.
Have a reason to disconnect. Patients still in the vehicle, fire hazard, anything legitimate is good with me but sometimes the car will be driven away or there are no hazards and no one is in the vehicle.
Use the right tools. I really can't bear to see the haligan used. It really can be a recipie for disaster. The haligan is more than long enough to accidently hit both battery terminals. Which believe me when I tell you is a bad sight.
Accessing the battery. When the car is totaled and all the fluids from the vehicle are now on the highway do we really need to use the forcible entry saw to open the hood and spray the entire area with sparks? I mean I thought that's why we disconnect in the first place to eliminate ignition sources.
I'd love to hear others thoughts on the topic.

A close friend of mine (no emergency service involvement) had a scary incident while jumping his car this morning. He's a real technical guy but he got a little complacent. Which brings me to the topic. I'm finding that I'm constantly having to correct or stop firefighters while disconnecting batteries at MVA scenes. First too many guys have no respect for the hazards involved in what they are doing. Here's my thoughts.
Have a reason to disconnect. Patients still in the vehicle, fire hazard, anything legitimate is good with me but sometimes the car will be driven away or there are no hazards and no one is in the vehicle.
Use the right tools. I really can't bear to see the haligan used. It really can be a recipie for disaster. The haligan is more than long enough to accidently hit both battery terminals. Which believe me when I tell you is a bad sight.
Accessing the battery. When the car is totaled and all the fluids from the vehicle are now on the highway do we really need to use the forcible entry saw to open the hood and spray the entire area with sparks? I mean I thought that's why we disconnect in the first place to eliminate ignition sources.
I'd love to hear others thoughts on the topic.

I think this is a flaw in the system. In a lot of cases the members most qualified and with the most experince are not in the leadership positions and 20 something year olds are. Or the chief is from company B because it's their turn in the rotation. Honestly it's 2011 do we really think everyone should get a turn to be chief?

That's what the "Government" tells us. NIMS and the Presidential Directive be damned, but no one can change human nature. In reality, not everyone agrees. In fact, the proof is in the fact that this thread exists. Would the trooper have agreed to let the highway be closed if he was in the UCP? I doubt it. The Utopian theory that because we call it Unified Command everyone will agree and is equally responsible for the decision, is false. It doesn't happen. I've taken and taught many ICS 300 and 400 level programs and those who actually work in the command structure or in UCP's at always admit, that in the end, certain players have far more say than others. It's the reality of human nature, don't bother trying to change it. Now can a UCP work? Of course, and it takes planning and meeting long before the incident and knowing each others roles and limitations. But, show me a democratic command post and I'll show you an incident that has moved beyond true emergency to recovery.