helicopper

I don't see the criticisms brought forth here as saying not to try and figure out how the system can be improved, but you must understand the system that you're trying to fix in the first place and the detailed underpinnings. It appears that regardless of what other issues are brought to light with a plan that tries to integrate volunteers into an all paid system you fail to move on to another solution that might have more merit? I mean no disrespect, but are you truly looking for solutions to the City's problem or looking for a solution to your own?

Sorry you think so. I have been an EMS instructor for 30 years and I the amount of training that EMT's get has never been enough to put them out in the street as a newbe. When the course was 120 hours I convinced my course sponsers to let me do 180. I included Patient documentation, MCI OPS. auto extrication (scene safety & EMS rolls as well as understanding what to ask for, like a dash roll or a 3rd door) where my students got to see a car being cut up. How about doing patient packaging in a car thats mangled or in a bathroom. Do you know how to get a choking patient out of a corner bath tub? If you have never been tought, you wont manage it. How about getting the pt with the broken hip out of the recliner that the family placed them in (and do it without lifting or agrivating the break).
There are many other threads that you can go to on firefighter training. Here we have 1 basic standard and many agencies including FDNY understand it and realize its just too basic, so they add more too it.

There is no Ego just 30+ years of experience and training speaking. Based on your profile you are still wet behind the ears as far as EMS goes. At 19 just how much studying of this field to solve the problems of FDNY EMS have you done. You even acknowledged that you aare not that familiar with the system.

1) They are not overtrained, the rest of the EMT's in NYS are undertrained. Most EMT classes spend less then 3 hours teaching triage,MCI ops and most never teach EMS's role at accidents and special rescue incidents.
2) Not downplaying their "emergencies" but 1st they need to be emergencies. I have responded to a number of "Chest Pains", "Diff Breathers" & "Man Down" within 500 feet of an ER. Sounds real. We get there and during the assessment we find a patient ID from the ER. When questioned they tell us how long they were waiting for a minor complaint (like I forgot to fill the Rx from last nights trip to the ER) and figured it would be faster if they called 911 so we could take them right in.
Or my favorite, General Pain. Can not find anything wrong. transport to ER. Soon as the doors open, Pt bolts and yells, thanks for the ride, my GF lives across the street and I did not have bus fare. This guy pulled it with 2 other crews before the word got out and we started transporting to a different ER. He stopped calling.

1) There are plenty of VAC's right here in Westchester that are dying for volunteers.
2) While you say "add", if this were to work, Quin and other politicians will cut the jobs, becuase you are saving them $$$ by volunteering. Since they already determined that they believe in the cuts they have already made. This will net you no additional units and when the volunteers get tired of playing 2nd string, you will actually have a loss.

There is a lot wrong with what you said. First lets make it clear that I don't want this to go down the paid vs volly road.
You are correct. EMTs fresh out of school spent 17 weeks training, but they did not spend 9 weeks, 40 hours per week training. Big difference. Second, FDNY EMS EMTs go through an extensive process before they ever step out on the street including a complete refresher regardless of when you got your card to ensure quality control. You are correct we are not looking for ER docs. Nothing against ER docs but most can not perform in the streets and conditions FDNY EMS works in.
You stated in your first post "The only difference would be in the training because you wont go through the FDNY*EMS academy but a shorter modified training program but you'll wear the same uniform and you will not get paid." Now you state "Train them to you standard because they already spent 17 weeks learning how to save lifes and at least 36 hours on the road." Which is it shorter, corners cut training or the full academy you can't have it both ways.
You have a brass pair calling it about "lining pockets" and stating "ambulance crews are sleeping off somewhere and had to get called multiple times before a response". If you want to get experience there are plenty of volunteer corps in NYC that will let you "get your feet wet". But to put it on the backs of the public by stating to solution is to bring in volunteers with less training standards is short sighted. Think about it, if you have the choice between a fully trained FDNY EMS crew or a wet behind the ears crew that is volunteering for experience, who would you want, honestly. If you choose the later then you are not honest.
The solution is public education about what is a 911 EMS call and letting the ER docs go back to signing the back of the call reports when it is not medically necessary so that Medicare & insurance pass the bill to the patients. Once they realize that the taxi with lights and sirens is about $400 more than the livery they will think twice about calling. It helped in the 90's.

Quinn is like all the other politicians. They feel they are special and therefore deserve special treatment not accorded the masses. Yea, why not put her in the SUV and drive her to the hospital yourself? How hard was that to figure out. Did they really need to tie up a paramedic ambulance for a fainting?
Though I have moved South, I still get my NY Post every day. I look forward to reading the forthcoming stories of the decline of NYC post Bloomberg and Kelly.
The inmates will be running the asylum come January and it won't be long before they undo everything accomplished by Giuliani and Bloomberg. Public Safety wise anyway. Between the criminals in Albany and the clueless in NYC, by the time they finish accommodating all their personal and special interests the tax rates necessary to pay for it all will be simply staggering.

30 minutes for a Priority 5 call as it was first triaged with no available buses in the system and calls waiting is not long. The heat wave is taxing the system. Quinn states that there should be more units out there to handle the call volume and that the system was not prepared. This is the same woman that voted to cut the FDNY & EMS budget and reduce the unit count. I guess it was just lip service until those cuts hit home. They also could have picked this young lady up and put her in the air conditioned SUV that she had waiting and I am sure running to ensure it was kept cool instead of "dragging" her under a tent to keep her cool.

"Quinn was speaking before cameras about the reopening of the controversial E. 91st St. marine transfer station when the 17-year-old girl suddenly dropped to the ground in front of the crowd shortly before noon, witnesses said.
The speaker ran over to the teen, who may have collapsed because of the heat, and began rubbing her arms as a member of Quinn's detail — an NYPD cop who is a trained EMT — began rendering aid to the girl.
"It's going to be okay," Quinn told the girl as another bystander called 911.
They quickly pulled the girl into the shade under a tent as Quinn's security guard grabbed an oxygen tank to help the young woman breathe.
But Quinn finally lost her patience after waiting about 30 minutes for an ambulance to arrive and dialed NYPD Commissioner Raymond Kelly for help.
"We were trying to get through to [FDNY Commissioner] Sal Cassano, and I was unable to get connected," Quinn said."
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2013/07/chris-quinn-slams-outrageous-30-minute-wait-for-ambulance-after-intern-collaps
Interesting, injured woman faints and is conscious and being treat by "trained personnel" (a police officer who is also an EMT). Triaged as it should and held for higher priority calls due to a 25% spike in call volume. But because it is the Speakers intern there is "outrage " because it should have been a "priority 1" call. Maybe they should hold the arrest, MI, stroke or true unconscious for her intern. This is the same Speaker that would have called for a City Council investigation if an MOS family's call was bumped up. I guess it is justified when you call the Police Commissioners private cell and pull strings to get your low priority call bumped up to a high priority "unconscious" even though the woman was conscious. Maybe the speaker and her intern should have followed her own instructions that she has been handing out since the heat wave started - stay hydrated, in the shade when possible and wear light colored, loose fitting clothing.

Facts are simple. Most of the low priority calls are simply "taxi" runs. Some are actually for late clinic appointments, ER follow ups , etc. These people would complain if the unit arrived in 10 minutes. There are the exceptions that actually do require an ambulance either due to secondary conditions or incorrect information relayed during EMD. In a perfect world extra units could be added during extreme weather but unfortunately this politician is part of the same group that imposed budget restraints on agencies and the media is the same one that will list all of the "high overtime earners" names and address because they increased their base income to add these extra units. The politicians want it both ways. The simple solution is that these politicians should have held their press conference in a less environmentally hostile environment, ensure that their staff was safe and not created the problem in the first place.

The NYC Sergeants Benevolent Association representing the NYPD Sergeants is calling out Quinn for using special courtesies that have gotten others arrested, and for wasting money with her ridiculous Inspector General for the NYPD
http://sbanyc.net/documents/quinnAd.pdf

There's another thread that is running at the same time as this one. It's about booster lines. If you are leaning on your pike poles, why not pick up a booster line and wet down debris? After all you are both useless.
Of course, your IC will have to get another RIT only because OSHA requires it, and at no time can he have people in an ILDH without a RIT outside.
Also, do the guys that go inside (after all those guys are what this FAST stuff is all about) know that there is nobody there to help them if they get in trouble?
Sample radio transmission:
Mayday, mayday...I fell through the floor. I think I'm in the basement.
10-4 I'll see if there is anyone around who can give you a hand
Mayday, Mayday...Come get me. I can't get out from under the rubble
IC to Mayday...Can you hang on another 20 minutes? I've got a real good team coming, much better than the guys on-scene
If this little scenario looks like anything that could conceivably happen in your department, don't you think you would have to be dumb to go inside?

So if they are not called mutual aid to the scene as FAST and end up "sitting outside" They are left sitting back in their fire station in their district or are they just buffing the call to take pictures and "standing outside" anyway?

I created the Lake Carmel Fasteam and it took a few years to get it where i wanted it to be. The team was active and trained together once a month with our entire department so that even the members that didnt want to respond with the team also got the training. The training not only benifited the departments that requested us but made our department better overall. As the IC at our calls I saw our members coming off our appartus better prepared. After I was Chief the team hung on for a few years but slowly the members lost interest and the current Chief at the time couldn't be bothered to take an interest in the team and dissolved it. I dont want to get into our departments politics but I dont see the members coming off the appartus the way that they use to.
One issue that did occur that Carmel needs to watch out for is that we werent being requested enough and in a timely fashion. In Putnam Co just one department had us on automatic mutual aid and that was after the fire was confirmed(someone actually on scene) so that would be a good 5-8 minutes after the fire was dispatched. By the time we got dispatched and drove over there we had to park the rig out of the way and hike with all our gear to the scene. usually walking up to a fire that has been knocked down and the first crew already taking a blow at rehab. There needs to be a better system of dispatching the Fasteam and in a more timely fashion.

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

I've been giving something a lot of thought lately, and decided to post it here for discussion.
There's quite a few departments in Westchester running FAS Teams (or RI Teams). Rarely, unless I am wrong, do any of them train with each other or the department's they routinely run with.
I'm thinking that maybe it's time for those of us running these teams to perhaps get together and start working together towards a common practice. I think we all pretty much use the same equipment, require the same training and have the same mindsets on how we should do our jobs.
Firefighter safety is a very serious topic to me. I've been thinking of ways to increase our safety in my own department, and started to think about ways to help all of us get on the same page - or close to it.
Please note this isn't a debate about how they should run, etc. I just want to open up the discussion of other departments in the WC interested in starting to work together towards - dare I say it - a more standard approach to all of this FAST stuff we do. It all starts with every firefighter recognizing and knowing what to do to avoid / get out of trouble, and maybe as a united voice (all of us running FAST's) we can start helping our own avoid ever needing us.
Just food for thought - I'm more than willing to work on this and to use our station to play host for meetings / training.
Thanks for reading.

It's funny how when many of us came on the job, we were looked down upon by the rest of society because we were "only" civil servants.
Now because we have done well for ourselves, we are under attack, we really can't win

The anti-public sector sentiment and actions by our elected officials recently is definitely cause for alarm.

I pity those getting on the job now. They will have to work under deteriorating conditions; for many more years, to receive fewer benefits.
A dark day for the entire public sector statewide.

You mean this report?
http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=904607
There you go using science and facts to refute politics and emotion. When are you gonna learn!?!?!?

The anti-public sector sentiment and actions by our elected officials recently is definitely cause for alarm.

I pity those getting on the job now. They will have to work under deteriorating conditions; for many more years, to receive fewer benefits.
A dark day for the entire public sector statewide.

You mean this report?
http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=904607
There you go using science and facts to refute politics and emotion. When are you gonna learn!?!?!?

You mean this report?
http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=904607
There you go using science and facts to refute politics and emotion. When are you gonna learn!?!?!?

I'm pretty sure that FDNY, Yonkers, New Rochelle, and White Plains have all been saying this for a number of years. As their numbers have been reduced.

What was most interesting in the study is the math.
It showed the two 3 member crews was not as effective as a 5 or 6 member crew. in other words 3 + 3 = 4.8
The study is from NIST who in 2010 did a study that if followed would consolidate most of Westchester. In the single family house fire study, they determined that a minimum crew size of 3ff/1off was better than smaller crews EVEN if it ment longer response times.
They actually determined the levels of toxic gas & heat when it was no longer survivable for victims and compared how the proper crew size that arrived later acctually had more time to rescue them & save property because they were so much more effecient in attacking the fire and rescuing the victims.

I find that the booster reel argument is pushed mainly by the older generation. The same guys who still think pull up boots are just as effective as bunker gear. (Disclaimer: I'm an old guy, and have deviant thoughts like this from time to time, but I'm also a realist in embracing the future of the fire service and supporting the new younger line officers as they come up the line.)
That said....my department bought 2 new Engines in 2010 and 2 in 2011. NONE came with a booster reels. First time in our history that the Engines did not come with them. During the planning and layout for the Engines the argument came up. The older guys said most of the reasons people came up with having them as some did in this thread. But at the end of the day we realized that bumper mounted 1 3/4 trash lines can accomplish all the things that booster hose can and better. Plus the mistake of ever using the "red" line for anything more then washing off tools could never be made. (think it wont happen, your not living in the real world)
Yeah it may be easier to push a button then "pack" hose, but that's what the "new" guys are for heheheh.