Adopting the NFPA standards

[hudson144 150]

just wondering if departments throughout the area go by the NFPA standards, do you pick and choose the standards that you want to apply to your department or do you go by them all? In other words, can you enforce one standard and not the other?

[calhobs 110]

Considering tha i am not very well educated on this matter this is just my opinion, I would think since NY is an OSHA State and not an NFPA State (if I remeber correctly) I would think you could pick and choose as long as it meets or exceeds OSHA regs. But like I said i may be blowing smoke on this.

[Jason762 2]

Considering tha i am not very well educated on this matter this is just my opinion, I would think since NY is an OSHA State and not an NFPA State (if I remeber correctly) I would think you could pick and choose as long as it meets or exceeds OSHA regs. But like I said i may be blowing smoke on this.

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No state is an NFPA state, although NFPA standards typically do exceed OSHA regulations. NFPA puts out consensus standards that jurisdictions can chose to adopt or not to adopt. They can pick and choose what standards they will follow and which they will not, BUT if they chose to not meet a standard and a person gets hurt and the court finds that the NFPA standard is what a reasonable person would do, then there will be liability issues. For instance NFPA 1403 is the live fire training standard. If a dept. chooses to ignore this stanard and conduct live fire training and a FF gets hurt during the evolution, in court the standard will be brought up and the parts the dept. did not follow will be brought up. Then if the court finds that the NFPA standard is what a reasonable person would have done, the dept/IC can be found negligent.

Also an NFPA standard can be adopted into a local ordinance if a municipality chooses to do so. This then takes the standard and makes it law. We as "the fire service" should do as much as possible the meet or exceed as many NFPA standards as possible, they are there for our protection whether it be manpower issues, health and safety, basic FF standards, and the list goes on and on.

[res6cue 67]

The days of the NFPA standards being "suggested guidelines" are long gone. They are so widely accepted these days, that they are for all intents and purposes, all but accepted as THE standard and law. Agencies that don't meet or exceed all applicable NFPA standards are asking for big trouble, especially if they find themselves on the receiving end of a lawsuit for something related to noncompliance.

[Jason762 2]

The days of the NFPA standards being "suggested guidelines" are long gone. They are so widely accepted these days, that they are for all intents and purposes, all but accepted as THE standard and law. Agencies that don't meet or exceed all applicable NFPA standards are asking for big trouble, especially if they find themselves on the receiving end of a lawsuit for something related to noncompliance.

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Find me an agency that meets all applicable NFPA standards, start on the east coast and work your way west, you won't find one...There is no dept. around that can meet them all, wheteher the reason be money, manpower, equipment, etc. We can all do our best to try and meet the most important ones, but in the real world it is just not a possibility. Obviously there are some standards (ex. 1403) that must be adheared to at all times, but others (ex. 1500) are so extensive that they can never be fully met.

[res6cue 67]

I was in fact referring to the critical ones, I should've specified that instead of saying "all applicable standards". In any case, my point stands. While it might be near impossible to meet ALL standards, that sure won't stop a lawsuit, nor is "well, find me an agency that does meet all NFPA standards" a very sound defense when you're on the hotseat. We live in a very litigious world these days. Incidentally, adherance to most NFPA standards is fairly easy since quite a bit of it refers to the design and use of equipment. There is no reason whatsoever for agencies to be purchasing or using equipment that doesn't meet the NFPA standards. Most nonconformity to the standards regarding training, staffing and other personnel issues usually comes down to the piss poor excuses of either "well, we've always done it this way" or "we don't have the manpower or resources to be able to enforce it." Neither should be acceptable in my opinion. Either do it right and keep your personnel and the community you serve safe, or close up shop.

[TRUCK6018 50]

NFPA puts out consensus standards that jurisdictions can chose to adopt or not to adopt.  They can pick and choose what standards they will follow and which they will not, BUT if they chose to not meet a standard and a person gets hurt and the court finds that the NFPA standard is what a reasonable person would do, then there will be liability issues. 

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To prove this point, we only have to go a short distaince to upstate Lairdsville, NY (remember, NY is not an NFPA state) where a department has been disolved and a former volunteer fire chief is serving jail time for not adhearing to NFPA 1401.

[hudson144 150]

what nfpa standards do you all feel we all should be following? I know it is hard to follow but lets put a list together on the one's that can easily be followed and enforced for safety reasons.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

NFPA standards are the nationally excepted standard of the fire service and as several of you have pointed out if something should occur they can and will be used against you in court proceedings if they should occur. This precidence was established as stated in a live fire training incident that resulted in the death of Bradley Golden in Lairdsville, NY. The Asst Chief was found guilty of Criminally Negligent Homicide. He was sentenced to time served and is banned from every being a member of a fire department again. What did the prosecutor and civil attorney use against him....NFPA 1403 Standard for Live Fire Training. You still here the argument that we don't have to follow NFPA yada yada yada, however if something happens you will see them again. You can pick and choose if you'd like, however most of your departments has no choice in some standards that manufacturers must adhere to to sell equipment like: Turnout gear, fire apparatus minimum requirements and so on. One critical point to make, is all NFPA standards reference other standards so once you follow that one, it ties you into following the reference standards as well. Even NYS/International Building Codes utilize NFPA standards in the building code.

What should we be following:

NFPA 1500 Standard on Fire Department Occupational Health & Safety Program (which is extremely well written and covers many topics to improve our safety in the firehouse and on incident sites)

NFPA 1001 Standard on Firefigher Professional Standards (covers curriculums for FF 1/2 and what other quailifications for firefighters.

NFPA 1002 Standard on Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

NFPA 1006 Standard for Rescue Technician Professional Qualifications

NFPA 1021 Standard for Fire Officer Professional Qualifications

NFPA 1041 Standard for Fire Service Instructor Professional Qualifications

NFPA 1401 Recommended Practices for Fire Service Training Report and Records.

NFPA 1403 Standard on Live Fire Training Evolutions.

NFPA 1404 Standard for Fire Service Respiratory Protection Training

NFPA 1410 Standard on Training for Initial Emergency Scene Operations

NFPA 1521 Standard for Fire Department Safety Officer

NFPA 1561 Standard on Emergency Services Incident Management System

NFPA 1581 Standard on Fire Department Infection Control Program

NFPA 1582 Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments

NFPA 1584 Recommended Practice on the Rehabilitation of Members Operating at Incident Scene Operations and Training Exercises

NFPA 1670 Standard on Operations and Training for Technical Search and Rescue Incidents

NFPA 1710 Standard for the Organization and Deployment of Fire Suppression Operations, Emergency Medical Operations, and Special Operations to the Public by Career Fire Departments

NFPA 1720 Standard for the Organization and Deployment of Fire Suppression Operations, Emergency Medical Operations and Special Operations to the Public by Volunteer Fire Departments

NFPA 471 Recommendations for Responding to HazMat Incidents

NFPA 472 Standard for Professional Competence of Responders to HazMat Incidents

Anyone get the point? These are just a few of the big ones, I left out Fire Pump testing standard, hose testing standard, etc.

[ex-commish 490]

NFPA 1582 Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments

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Does 1582 require any type of stress test for the heart or is an EKG suffice. I ask this because I recently had a nuclear stress test ( passed with flying colors) and was told this is a far better test of your heart as well as blood flow into your heart.

[firecapt32 282]

god --- dont you just love the way ALS talks-- I hate to follow him but would follow him any where.

The standards should be met or at least-- have a plan in place. where you are attempting to achieve those standards. They all cant be met at once BUT if you are looking to the furure and are attempting to meet the standards you are at least on stable ground.

Have a plan-- Have it written -- Have the plan approved by higher ups--Mayor-Board of Trustrees --Fire Commissioner. Board of Fire Wardens.

This 6 yrear into the new century guys-- lets get with it--sorry to say the "good old days" are long gone. It's the year of the men in suits sueing for all sorts of reasons. Please don'e be caught on the short end.

[SteveOFD 176]

As mentioned earlier in the thread NFPA Standards are concensus "industry" standards. This means that the standard is adopted as a concensus of voting members of the NFPA.

When it hits the fan and a FD is brought into court to defend itself, evidence will be presented against you that you did not follow "rules" adopted by a consensus of others like you in your "industry". When a jury of civilians, with no knowledge of firefighting, hear evidence that you did not follow rules established by others like you (Firefighters and others voting for the NFPA adopted standard) they will have very little problem establishing that you are at fault.

NFPA Standards are established and "enforced" across various "industries" whether it be Electrical, Sprinkler System, Fire Alarm System or any other NFPA Standard. They are all alike in that they are all adopted as a consensus of interested parties within their "industry".

[ny10570 745]

Does 1582 require any type of stress test for the heart or is an EKG suffice. I ask this because I recently had a nuclear stress test ( passed with flying colors) and was told this is a far better test of your heart as well as blood flow into your heart.

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Sadly, nuclear stress testing is too time consuming and too expensive to be a practical requirement for all FF's. Standard stress testing however is more feasable. The only problem is the rates of false positives in people who would not normaly qualify for stress testing mitigate the effectiveness and practicallity of the test.