Note To The General Public: DIAL 911 AND WAIT!

[RWC130 594]

NOTE THE THE GENERAL PUBLIC: DIAL 911 AND WAIT!

I've noticed various of our Volunteer Agencies mostly EMS and sometimes Fire

will tone out for an EMS Crew or tone out for a Fire Call or what ever the case may be.

They tone and tone and tone. You can sometimes hear the plea in the Dispatchers

voice "EMT is needed" or "Driver is needed for Engine XXX"

What is a "REASONABLE" amount of pages before you turn the call over

to Mutual Aid?

For the Record, I am in no way bashing ANY Volunteer Agency, I am proud to be a Volunteer Firefighter however don't we as Volunteer Firefighters and Volunteer EMT's have an obligation to the public to provide a service?

HOW LONG IS TOO LONG OF A WAIT BEFORE WE CALL MUTUAL AID?

[res6cue 67]

In Rockland, there is a 4 minute rule in effect for fire. No units responding within 4 minutes and AMA dept automatically gets toned out. Not sure about EMS, I suspect that might vary since each town's PD dispatches them.

[Guest]

Rockland County EMS has a double tone rule in effect. If the duty crew doesn't acknowledge they retone then send it mutual aide (usually about 2 minutes or so time span before turn over) -- When it comes to 2nd rig/open pages for crew members the 1st page is sent across if no response it goes Mutual Aide immediately HOWEVER if an EMT or Driver replys then they do one more page then send it mutual aide

[res6cue 67]

Alright, thanks. It's been about 12 years since I've been involved in EMS around there.

[Guest DFFD227]

while I dispatch I tone out, and If I dont hear a responce within 5 minutes I will go mutual aid right away...I even time it.

[EJS1810 7]

Putnam has a 5 minute rule for EMS and 10 minutes for fire.

After the 5 minutes for EMS the 2 closest agencies are dispatched or the Empire rig is assigned the call if it is in the eastern half of the county and M-F, 6a-6p.

For fire calls if there is no response after 10 minutes 1 mutual aid department is dispatched. It is very rare that we have to do this.

Edited October 2, 2006 by EJS1810

[Guest]

WOW... 5 minutes, If a ambulance is not going with in 5 seconds, I am on the phone kickin some butt.... How do you guys handle call backs ??? Here if people wait 5 minutes they would be screaming!!!!

[Guest bibbles10504]

What about 60 Controls policy? Does anyone know?

[Eagle24 2]

3 tone rule(well, it's more of a guideline than a rule)...usually a couple people call in in the first minute, if there is no one on the air, PD is usually pretty quick to recognize we'd need mutual aid and tone out the next town over...

[RocklandFires 44]

Where I dispatch, we tone out the ambulance 4 times, 1 minute apart. After the 4th tone we go mutual aid. When it comes to the Fire Department, they have an 8 minute response rule.

[ajsbear 11]

I know on the fire side Putnam tones out 3 times and goes to MA. Most departments usually have people in quarters by the second tone.

[Guest WolfEMT]

Monmouth NJ goes by the rule of 10 minutes. Second Alert is toned out 5 minutes after the First Alert; Third Alert is toned out 5 minutes after Second Alert. If no units call in service after Third Alert, the call goes Mutual Aid and the 10 minute clock starts over.

[RWC130 594]

Does 60-Control have a policy on Automatic Mutual Aid?

FIRE and EMS

[Guest alsfirefighter]

60 Control sets no policy. (Which isn't their fault, but is a major flaw). The department sets the policy and they have to follow it.

The county I was in Virginia, you had 5 mins. Fire or EMS. If you didn't get out you got re-toned and a company was added to it, this went on every 5 mins. and companies would keep be added until someone responded. AMA was also set up with neighboring departments out of county to cover calls. This occassionally occurred and to be honest a bit embarassing to have happen.

Nothing gets me shaking my head more, is when someone answers after 2 or 3 sets of tones, but then there are another 3 or 4 sets of tones and they ask the one person who called in what is their pleasure...their usual answer "try again" then after that what do they say "try again." After that, "is it als?" Get your ambulance out. Do not keep toning until the medic arrives to see if it is als, then when its bls the person still has to wait. Just because its BLS they may be in pain or discomfort and still deserve a somewhat timely response and if the M/A agency doesn't have a crew they have to tone out.

For EMS the answer is simple...a region and state can tell you how to treat someone, what has to be in your ambulance/vehicle, but why can't they set a standard for going mutual aid? Its ridiculous.

[ENG47INE 17]

Putnam has a 5 minute rule for EMS and 10 minutes for fire. 

After the 5 minutes for EMS the 2 closest agencies are dispatched or the Empire rig is assigned the call if it is in the eastern half of the county and M-F, 6a-6p.

For fire calls if there is no response after 10 minutes 1 mutual aid department is dispatched.  It is very rare that we have to do this.

←

1o minutes is a little long for fire don't you think?

[GFD70 4]

If you don't get a full crew (Fire or EMS) off of the first dispatch you should call for Mutual Aid. Then the next question is what do you do when the mutual aid department has to retone, which unfortunately happens too often in Westchester - just listen to 46.26. I remember listening to a department get toned out 3 times for a cardiac arrest call. Then the M/A dept. had to be toned out at least twice. It was almost 20 minutes before anyone signed on.

[emt301 4]

Dutchess County...for Fire and EMS:

Primary agency gets initial dispatch....after 5 minutes 2nd dispatch, after 3 minutes 3rd dispatch for primary department as well as 1st dispatch for mutual aid FD and/or ambulance.

In addition, many volunteer FD ambulances now get a full-crew commercial ambulance (usually an ALS ambulance) dispatched simultaneously on 1st dispatch during the daytime hours to provide a more timely response. Despite some drawbacks (which will occur in any system), the system works pretty well. The biggest problem is that some of the commercial agencies are under-staffed, which means that sometimes the commercial rigs are spread pretty thin, especially in the northern and eastern parts of the county.

Edited October 3, 2006 by emt301

[Guest]

I know on the fire side Putnam tones out 3 times and goes to MA. Most departments usually have people in quarters by the second tone.

←

Lets be honest, thats not the case. It takes multiple tones and ma requests to get both Fire and EMS agencies mobilized in Putnam County - unless your talking about a glory call then everyone comes out of the wood work. There is serious disparity when it comes to the service provided by volunteer agencies, why do you think the county turned Medics 3 and 4 into ALS/BLS buses? The fact is a crack head on the corner of Gun Hill and White Plains Road gets a far better EMS response than the taxpayers of Putnam.

[helicopper 1,050]

Lets be honest, thats not the case. It takes multiple tones and ma requests to get both Fire and EMS agencies mobilized in Putnam County - unless your talking about a glory call then everyone comes out of the wood work. There is serious disparity when it comes to the service provided by volunteer agencies, why do you think the county turned Medics 3 and 4 into ALS/BLS buses? The fact is a crack head on the corner of Gun Hill and White Plains Road gets a far better EMS response than the taxpayers of Putnam.

←

Ouch... Sad but true!!!

[Guest]

There are holes, no question about it. Policies that need to fixed, but lets do away with the gross generalizations. Unless you have ACTUAL numbers and facts to back it up, what you hear on the scanner does not give you the ability to critique another agency. I know nothing about Putnum, but I have a hard time believing that the average response time is near 10 minutes. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but not with opinions.

Separate note on ALS firefighters comment: I know areas of P.A. that have a similar policy to parts of Virginia. The dept is toned for, then retoned 5 minutes later along with the next agency in line. Thats all there is too it. You get 5 minutes to respond before they retone, but when they do retone the tone for additional as well. From what I've been told, and this would be clear, its VERY embarrasing when the second due agency picks up YOUR run. Makes you look bad. Nothing like a little pressure to help bring people out. I think a similar policy should be put in place in this county. You get ONE tone by yourself and the next one comes with a back-up. PERIOD.

[Guest]

There are holes, no question about it.  Policies that need to fixed,  but lets do away with the gross generalizations.  Unless you have ACTUAL numbers and facts to back it up, what you hear on the scanner does not give you the ability to critique another agency.  I know nothing about Putnum, but I have a hard time believing that the average response time is near 10 minutes.  If I'm wrong, please correct me, but not with opinions.

Separate note on ALS firefighters comment:  I know areas of P.A. that have a similar policy to parts of Virginia.  The dept is toned for, then retoned 5 minutes later along with the next agency in line.  Thats all there is too it.  You get 5 minutes to respond before they retone, but when they do retone the tone for additional as well.  From what I've been told, and this would be clear, its VERY embarrasing when the second due agency picks up YOUR run.  Makes you look bad.  Nothing like a little pressure to help bring people out.  I think a similar policy should be put in place in this county.  You get ONE tone by yourself and the next one comes with a back-up.  PERIOD.

←

If you’re under the impression that I sit by a scanner and take notes about what goes on in Putnam, your mistaken. I work in the Putnam 911 system so I have first hand, very intimate knowledge, of what goes on throughout the County. I didn’t make any of my statements up - again why do you think the County chooses to turned Medics 3 and 4 into full buses 6a – 6p Monday thru Friday? It’s because the Medic’s were on scene 25 – 45 minutes waiting for an ambulance.If you can sit back and be satisfied calling a 25 minute response time a “hole†in coverage, then that’s fine for your community and or agency. However, while I don’t live in Putnam my job is to provide the highest quality pre-hospital care, within my scope of practice, to a portion of its residents and I take that task very, very seriously. I don’t post to single out an agency or make generalizations; the fact of the matter is candid discourse needs to be fostered otherwise the issues at hand will continue. This is, and only is, about providing a highly consistent, timely, and competent level of care across the County, I really don’t think that’s too much to ask.

Edited October 3, 2006 by 66Alpha1

[tglass59 27]

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 MINUTES IS CRAZY, TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE. ON THE SECOND TONE IT SHOULD BE THE ORIGINAL DEPARTMENT PLUS AMA.

[Guest]

Exactly, second tone should include AMA. Perhaps it would create some urgency within that first due agency as well as get help to the patient ASAP.

[RWC130 594]

First, I want to say THANK YOU to all of the members who made previous comments about my thread "Note To The General Public: DIAL 911 AND WAIT" We kept is PROFESSIONAL!

This is a good thread and a way to compare 911 Systems as a whole

and policies on AMA. Obviously some of us lack.

The comment about the Crack Head on White Plains Road getting better care than us....Sadly is so true!

I think ALL 911 Dispatch Centers need a clear policy on AMA for Fire and EMS.

7 or 10 minutes into the call "This is XXX, I am responding, Hit the tones again"

is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

[Guest]

I think all agencies should provide the service they are contracted to do.

or get out of the business. Could any body add comments about public health law article 30, and how to report agaencies that continue to fail the public they serve.

[helicopper 1,050]

I think all agencies should provide the service they are contracted to do.

or get out of the business. Could any body add comments about public health law article 30, and how to report agaencies that continue to fail the public they serve.

←

Contracted? Does a fire district have a contract with a municipality? I always thought they were their own entity... Is anyone aware of any response time criteria for a vollie agency?

On the EMS side, the problem is State law is so vague about who is responsible for providing EMS services. There is no statutory requirement for it (please correct me if I'm wrong) and certainly no response time requirements. Some agencies used to have response time criteria in their municipal EMS contracts but that was long ago... Any idea if they still exist?

I'll review Article 30 and see if anything new exists but if memory serves, there are no response time criteria there either. I remember way WAY back when the Hudson Valley Regional EMS Council (at the behest of the Westchester delegation) sought to have response time criteria added to regional policies and it was strongly opposed by several upstate counties. This was obviously when Westchester was stlill in HVREMSCO.

[4truck48 25]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but if you have to retone to get an initial response, you have a problem. Basicaly there is no excuse for it. This is 2006 the days of but we're a volunteer department are over. It's time for everybody to realize we have a responsibility and a obligation to respond with properly trained manpower in EVERY situation, within a reasonable amount of time. If you have to retone and retone change your system. Ask yourself this question. How long would YOU want to wait if your house was on fire or if one of your family members was having a heart attack?

[Amato122 0]

This is exacly why Westchester/Rockland/Putnam need a paid municipal EMS system like NYC and other large cities. For people paying some of the highest property taxes in the nation to have to wait 10, 20, or 30 minutes for an ambulance is ridiculous. I have no problem with the VAC's, but I feel they should operate like they do in NYC where they only can buff jobs and are not part of the 911 system.

[trauma74 111]

This is how they do it here in Orange County. The day is split up into two 12 hour time blocks 0600-1800 & 1800-0600. If a VAC is toned out for a their first call or the day during either one of these time blocks and they do not answer up, they get a re-tone in 4 minutes. If after 3 minutes there is no response then the call gets turned over to a mutual aid EMS agency. For any other calls that come in after that initial first call of the time block, that VAC will get toned out and at the same time their mutual aid will get toned out for a mutual aid call in thay VAC's district. All VAC's in Orange County have box assigments (if you want to call them that) for their mutual aid EMS agencies. Here in Chester I have my district split up into 4 "boxes". So, the 911 EMS Dispatcher will know just by looking in the CAD who my mutual aid EMS agency will be for whatever address where the call is.

This system is not bad, but it is not really great either. I will tell you why. Lets say that my VAC does not get out for a call, the mutual aid VAC gets toned out for the mutual aid call. If they do not answer up on their first page they may get re-toned depending on whether this is their first call in one of the two 12 hour blocks. So now 7 minutes have already gone by with no response from my VAC and another 3 minutes minutes for the mutual aid VAC and if they get re-toned it is another 4 minutes. So, now you are at 14 minutes. They will not mutual aid another VAC if your mutual aid VAC does not respond. They will contact Mobile Life Support Services or Regional EMS. These paid ALS units could be responding from anywhere in the County so now you have 14 minutes plus the time it takes for the paid ALS unit to get to the patient.

[helicopper 1,050]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but if you have to retone to get an initial response, you have a problem. Basicaly there is no excuse for it. This is 2006 the days of but we're a volunteer department are over. It's time for everybody to realize we have a responsibility and a obligation to respond with properly trained manpower in EVERY situation, within a reasonable amount of time. If you have to retone and retone change your system. Ask yourself this question. How long would YOU want to wait if your house was on fire or if one of your family members was having a heart attack?

←

It is incomprehensible to me that in this day and age people still find it acceptable to tone out and wait 3, 4, or even 5 minutes before there is even an acknowledgement let alone a response. If you wait four minutes and then the crew needs to assemble (let's say 5 minutes) and drive for another five minutes that's a fifteen minute response time. Why bother doing CPR after a response like that - statistically it is almost a certainty that the patient is dead.

From a personal experience, my wife had an accident and called me shortly after it occurred. I was actually at the fire training center (Valhalla) and drove to the scene of the accident 25 miles away and arrived at the same time as the ambulance from the town where the accident occurred. Thank god she wasn't badly injured!!!!

Another thread was just started about a fatal fire in Massachusetts where the first due companies had an 11 minute response time... The delays were due to a firehouse closure but the point is the same - response times matter!!!

Edited October 4, 2006 by Chris192