Fire Department in danger of losing rigs.

[mllax14 18]

Riverdale Fire Dept. Could Lose Trucks

POSTED: 6:54 pm EST January 24, 2007

UPDATED: 8:04 pm EST January 24, 2007

RIVERDALE, Md. -- A fire department in Prince George's County could lose all of its fire trucks unless it comes up with $28,000.

Six years ago the Riverdale Heights Volunteer Fire Department bought a new rescue squad truck using it's other fire trucks as collateral. All the trucks could be repossessed if the department doesn't pay up.

According to News4's Pat Collins, part of the station's problem is the decreasing popularity of its bingo night. Bingo used to be held twice a week, but because of low attendance, it was cut back to one night, which continues to see its crowds dwindle.

Jim Collins, the president of the Prince George's County Volunteer Fire Department, said if Riverdale loses its station, that would mean slower response times in that area.

Riverdale Heights firefighters respond to about 4,000 calls a year.

Click on the link below and then double click on the picture on the top right to open the video window.

http://www.nbc4.com/news/10836940/detail.h...l=headlineclick

This is kind of the opposite of what I am used to seeing, people constantly questioning the need of Fire Department and Fire Stations, but here the community at large is in support of keeping the station open. It must be difficult for the guys down there to operate knowing that you only have 10 days to pay a big bill or your station and community is done for. I mean I understand that whoever the money is owed to is need of it; I’m only assuming that the money is going to the manufacture and dealer and I know that they are only trying run a business, but seriously come on isn’t there another way.

[Guest]

To me, this is unacceptable of the manufacturer and dealer. Do they have no heart? I as well, can understand the need to keep business running, but cant there be any other way? I think that anyone in the fire service would be opposed to closing a station, and i would think that the company would be more flexible and work out some type of a payment plan with the department.

Just my opinion

[Guest]

Why would you buy a truck you couldn't pay for?

[Arrowxt 8]

I bet it is not the manufacturer or the dealer. If they placed there fleet or assets against it then it is a financial institution. Anyway why did they buy the rig to start with. Maybe they should not have gambled on bingo.

I would hate to see them be shut down over this , but I bet if they explore there options they will be able to keep themselves going.

Arrow

[EXDC203 38]

ATTN 66alpha............... most depts buy rigs they cant afford...float bonds...take loans. This is not an ambulance!! if the money is there when the purchase is made, people dont count on the money running out.

[BIGRED1 71]

couldn't the town help out? maybe a donation drive? It would seem like a good idea to have the town pay the very small amount of $28,000, then have the department pay the town. it didn't say but i am assuming it is an all volunteer department and would think that the town gives them some money anyway.

Have the amount of 28,000 taken away from next years budget or build it in, and everything would be fine.

[Guest]

ATTN 66alpha...............  most depts buy rigs they cant afford...float bonds...take loans.  This is not an ambulance!!  if the money is there when the purchase is made, people dont count on the money running out.

←

Interesting, but it still doesn't answer my question. Why would you purchase a truck you cant afford or afford to make payments on? Seems like some seriously poor fiscal planning and management.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Is it possible that they needed a new resuce and used the other trucks as collateral because they needed the resuce for other vital emergency services that it provided to the community

Edited January 26, 2007 by bvfdjc316

[Guest partyrock]

Wow, I didn't relaize how many idealists we had on here.

The institution financing the Dept is responsible for its own bottom line. It is the dept's job to pay its bills and it is the lenders job to obatin compensation if the dept is unable to keep up its payments.

Very few depts outside of major municipalities purchase their rigs with cash on hand. I'm sure many people on here financed their car and most financed their home. When you have to make a purchase that represents such a large part of your budget you often have no other choice but to spread it out over several years.

As for their apparent poor planning for their future finances, what else were they suppose to do? They have for years managed to maintain a steady cash flow to fund their opperations. Unforseen circumstances have arrived and they were unable to adapt. It happens all the time all over the country. It has even happened to major municipalities, anyone here remmeber or ever learn about NYC's financial crisis of the 70's?

I really hope the community can rally together and save their dept. The only question I have is...is the 28,000 this years payment or is it the remaining balance of the loan?

[Guest]

Whatever the case is, hopefully the town can cut them a 28k check to stay in service.

Edited January 26, 2007 by 66Alpha1

[helicopper 1,050]

ATTN 66alpha...............  most depts buy rigs they cant afford...float bonds...take loans.  This is not an ambulance!!  if the money is there when the purchase is made, people dont count on the money running out.

←

I don't think most emergency service agencies buy any kind of equipment/vehicle that they "can't afford". Using bonds or loans or other means of credit is not the same as not affording it. It would seem that the department in question DID however buy a vehicle they couldn't afford if their sole means of paying it off was BINGO??? Really, in suburban Maryland - commuting distance from the nation's capital and in one of the most affluent counties in the country?

It is a disgrace that in the 21st Century an emergency service doesn't receive more community support and relies on BINGO to sustain it!

If the municipality they serve isn't willing to assist them in this time of need (either through donations or tax support, or both), maybe they should let their trucks be repossessed and close the station!

Edited January 26, 2007 by Chris192

[ldrco195 17]

check out...

Riverdale Heights Thread !!!!

for further details.

[Guest]

Ahhh...how the plot thickens...

[mfc2257 464]

Ok folks I'll weigh in here again.... The Riverdale Heights VFD is located in Prince Georges County Maryland.... A softballs toss from Washington DC. This county is where some of the very finest volunteer firefighters in the US are located. Unfortunately too, this county suffers from tremendous fighting between the Volunteers and the Prince Georges County Fire Department. The super basic description of what's going on here is that there are approximately 50 stations in the county. They are either 100% volunteer, combo, or a handful of county owned 100% career stations (although these aren't necessarily the busiest). When volunteers start having trouble getting rigs out, the county will put a few paid guys in the station. If the volunteers are able to recruit etc. and the turnout gets to the point where they don't need the career guys then they'll be pulled. This happened in Kentland and Bladensburg 12 years ago where the vollies had become so strong in numbers and talent that the paid guys were moved to other stations.

Now, the county fire chief is a moron. Most of the paid firemen who supplement the vollies get along with each other regardless of the highly publicized fight between a few idiots at Kentland and some "paid maids" as they're called.

AS FOR APPARATUS. These departments rely on fund raising, small stipends from local government, etc. to purchase their own apparatus. OR if they cannot afford to purchase all the equipment that they need, the county will supply what they need in the form of stripped down very basic rigs. Riverdale Heights made two critical errors. 1st, they got a county ambulance forced upon them a few years ago which has taken many of the available volunteers away from running fire rescue because they are required to staff the county ambulance... AND they bought a Rescue Squad (just called a Squad) that they didn't need. Unlike Westchester where there is tons of duplicated apparatus sitting right next to each other, PG county decides what is needed and where. Riverdale Heights didn't need a squad because there were three surrounding departments that had them. IF the department needed a squad and couldn't pay for it, the County would have placed a county owned squad in their station. If they could afford it then they could have bought it on their own. Looks like they couldn't afford it. So of the 15 or so squads in the county, there are about 10 that are volunteer owned and 5 that are county owned. ALL the apparatus in the county regardless of who owns it have maintenance, fuel, and insurance paid for by the county. (That's why when Kentland has enough guys to staff a 4th engine, either the county will provide a reserve unit or another volunteer station will loan one of it's engines to them)

What does all of this boil down to???? Most likely the county will bail them out. How this will happen is up for debate. Either, the county will take possession of one or both of the volunteer engines and repaint them white with red PGFD markings and give them back to the station OR they'll help them pay the loan. The county will take possession of the squad and place it in service as a reserve or assign it to another station where a county owned squad is in need of replacement. Either way, the Riverdale Heights volunteers won't have a squad much longer if they can't raise the money to pay their debt, because the county doesn't believe that a squad is needed in thier station.

.

Edited January 26, 2007 by mfc2257

[ONLOCATION 24]

A Picture of the Truck in Question.....

[biglew 3]

Thanks mfc2257 for the additional info.

28K is not a large sum of money when we are talking about rigs. You say they rely on fund raisers to raise most of their revenue. The news report talks about bingo night not being as productive as it was.

What about a firemans carnival like some hudson valley depts do every year? What about a "Fill the Boot" campaign on weekend when the vollies can actively participate? What about a simple newspaper ad asking for community support?

I am not sure of the size of the district/jurisdiction that Riverdale Heights encompasses, but surely they would gain sympathy/ support from the people they serve. 4000 runs a year is not 400, surely there is a need for their department.

I remember photographing PG rigs in the 80's and 90's when I was writing for Fire Service Digest, and I remember the vollie/paid arguments back then. I could never understand the fact that we are supposed to watch each others back at a job, but some would rather find a spot to "stab" someone in the back they were supposed to watch. I hope this paid/vollie stuff is largely political and not personal or all of PG's residents will suffer.

[mfc2257 464]

Unfortunatly I believe that boot drives are no longer permitted by the Prince Georges County Fire Department. Even though all of the individual departments have their own charters, they still have certain county regulations to abide by.

Carnivals and other fund raisers might get them out of this bind, but honestly, they've got to find a sustainable way to maintain income to pay for the Squad if they want to keep it. They owe $28,000 just to make this go away for now, not to settle all of their debt. The situation is bad enough that if they totally default and the county doesn't bail them out, they there is enough debt on the Squad to warrent losing both Engines (which they used as collateral) AND the Squad.

There is definatly a need for the department.... Otherwise they would have been forced to combine with another department by PGFD OR lose their county maintenance, fuel, and insurance for the rigs (this is called deadlining the apparatus) which happened when three companies combined a while back and the PGFD decided that they didn't need a tiller and a rearmount. The tiller deadlined and will be for sale shortly. So the problem isn't that the department isn't needed, in fact the county needs to have an ambulance in their station so they forced one on them (another story for another time). The real argument from PGFD will be that they are in this bind because they purchased a Squad that they didn't need. If they really needed one, there would be a county owned Squad already in the station. THEN if the vollies really wanted a superior piece of apparatus with better equipment they could have bought their own.

Please don't think that I'm taking the side of the county here I'm just stating the facts. The cold hard truth is that even in Westchester there is too much duplication of apparatus. There is no reason why every department south of Bedford Hills needs to have a ladder truck. Katonah has been doing just fine having TL-57 and the Sorkel before it running first due into its box. The Tower Ladder and Cascade craze in Westchester is out of control.... But that's another rant for another time.

[biglew 3]

Thanks again 2257,

I wasnt aware that the 28,000 was to stop the bleeding. I thought it was all that was owed.

Speaking about rants for another time, why don't we open up a post about duplication of apparatus in Westchester? LOL

I know some Westchester departments like to keep up with the Jones's, but at least they seem to have the money from some source to pay for their rigs. I would say I have seen some trophy seeker departments in my 25 years ( oops, that might be Long Island ) buffing, but by in large I

think depts try to by whats practical for their district, even if it is somewhat over the top sometimes.

[mfc2257 464]

Thanks again 2257,

I wasnt aware that the 28,000 was to stop the bleeding. I thought it was all that was owed.

Speaking about rants for another time, why don't we open up a post about duplication of apparatus in Westchester?  LOL

I know some Westchester departments like to keep up with the Jones's, but at least they seem to have the money from some source to pay for their rigs. I would say I have seen some trophy seeker departments in my 25 years ( oops, that might be Long Island ) buffing, but by in large I

think depts try to by whats practical for their district, even if it is somewhat over the top sometimes.

←

In the spirit of full disclosure, I am getting my info from friends in PG county that I used to run with, (none of which are members or career FF's at Company 13) and a similar EMTBravo like board for PG county so the money cannot be confirmed.... the rest of the situation I think I've got a pretty good handle on.

Edited January 27, 2007 by mfc2257

[mfc2257 464]

For those following this issue, please see the section bolded below. These guys aren't out of the woods yet, but it's a step.

Officials: Volunteer firefighting system not broken

From The Morning Examiner dated 2 February 2007

Daniel Fowler, The Examiner

http://www.examiner.com/a-540910~Of... t_broken.html

Prince George’s County - Prince George’s will not review its system of relying on volunteer fire companies to purchase and own much of the county’s firefighting fleet despite at least two instances where stations had or almost had vehicles repossessed, according to acting Fire/EMS spokesman Maj. Chauncey Bowers.

On Wednesday, an attorney for the Riverdale Heights Volunteer Fire Department and Rescue Squad said the station avoided repossession of two fire trucks and a rescue squad vehicle by borrowing $40,000 from another volunteer department.

But, Bowers said, “this process of individual companies purchasing equipment is not a broken system. This situation ... with Riverdale Heights is a rare occurrence.”

About six years ago, Bowers said, the county’s Hillside volunteer company had fire apparatus repossessed and then the station closed within 18 months. “The repossession was the issue there, but ultimately what led to the closing I’m not sure if there were other factors,” he said. Bowers said volunteer companies own about 60 percent of the county’s heavy equipment fleet, including fire trucks and rescue squads.

Montgomery County, meanwhile, owns approximately 85 percent of its heavy equipment fleet and has never had emergency apparatus repossessed, according to the county’s Fire and Rescue spokesman, Pete Piringer. “It’s hard to imagine that happening here,” Piringer said. Though Piringer would not say Montgomery County’s system is better, he said having a majority county owned fleet offers “more of a guarantee” of protection. “If you are solely relying on volunteer funds, there may be times when resources aren’t available,” he said. Still, Piringer said it is “not really fair” to compare the two counties because “the resources are so vastly different.”

Prince George’s officials say the county said it has allocated more than $500,000 to the Riverdale Heights station in the past five years, including money for operation, fuel, maintenance, insurance and payments on apparatus.

Riverdale Heights resident Janice Martin said Wednesday she is “not sure” whether she would be more comfortable with Montgomery County’s system, but was “surprised to find out how few of the apparatus is owned by [Prince George’s] County.”

[Arrowxt 8]

Glad to see they held the creditors at bay , but it looks as if the entire process needs to be looked at, as far as purchasing goes.

Arrow

[Guest]

This story is sad in every way. It's sad that the department doesn't have the revenue to cover the tab and is now in this position. It's sad that Fire/EMS agencies aren't cut slack with payments. It's sad that the department in question used it's apparatus as collateral. It's really sad that the community and local government doesn't help out.

But welcome to reality. We reap what we sew. Best of luck to the department and I hope they don't loose their rigs. I hope this is also a stern lesson learned.