FDNY Exam Protest Session

[Guest]

I'm sure i join the MAJORITY of the test takers when I say that the phsycological section of the exam was an absolute horror, and pretty much was the ONLY thing that killed our scores, bringing us from a 100 to whatever....low 90, mid 90, high 80 etc....

I'm just curious how many of us plan on actually attending this protest on March 3rd. I've taken a bunch of these tests in the past, and found that these protests really dont do much, just makes us feel better to know we can go in a complain, but something tells me that since SOOOO many of us are likly to go and complain over the same section, it just might help.

What do you think? Will it change anything at all? How many questions do you think they will take back? Will it effect everyone, or just those who go? Will they just drop the questions, or give us credit for the ones we complain over? How long does it take for us to know that we get our credit back?

All this and so many more are the kind of questions that I'm sure lots of us have thought about....figured this would be a good way to share and help each other out a little bit.

thanks!

[Guest]

If you want my personal opinion, i think "protesting" is a bit much....maybe even a bit childish. I didn't take the test and my career path, at this point, doesn’t include firefighting - however, i have taken a handful of civil service exams. Learning disabilities aside, everyone earns their score. You put the time in, you do well...you don’t it's a crap shoot. Going to down to the city to b**** and moan about a handful of questions isn’t going to get yourself, or anyone for that matter, anywhere closer to being hired. I'm sure if you ask most people, they didn't get hired off their first civil service exam. Often, the vast majority have to take a number of exams in order to even receive a canvas letter. Maybe I’m out of touch, but I just don’t see the sense in it all.

Edited February 23, 2007 by 66Alpha1

[exmrvfc 0]

If everyone had to take the same horrible questions, doesn't that put everyone on equal footing? If you are assuming you would have close to a 100 then you are in the higher level of the test takers and lower level people probbly did worse. So why bother complaining?

[x134 46]

If you want my personal opinion, i think "protesting" is a bit much....maybe even a bit childish. I didn't take the test and my career path, at this point, doesn’t include firefighting - however, i have taken a handful of civil service exams. Learning disabilities aside, everyone earns their score. You put the time in, you do well...you don’t it's a crap shoot. Going to down to the city to b**** and moan about a handful of questions isn’t going to get yourself, or anyone for that matter, anywhere closer to being hired. I'm sure if you ask most people, they didn't get hired off their first civil service exam. Often, the vast majority have to take a number of exams in order to even receive a canvas letter. Maybe I’m out of touch, but I just don’t see the sense in it all.

←

66 Alpha I totaly agree with you, some are just good test takers. As I have said before, it took me a long time and several tests to get on the job. F.D.N.Y. TEST twice, Dutchess county fire test three times, Ulster county fire City of Kingston 1 time and then got hired in 2001. I was on fdny list since 2/98 list 7029 and didn't even hear from them until 2001 but was on the job already. My opinion also that it will not go anywhere and it is just that, to make you feel better about not doing well on that part of the exam. The more tests you take the better you get at it. When I took the F.D.N.Y. TEST I thought it was very very easy.The physical is where they weed most of the people out. I talked to a retired F.D.N.Y. fire marshall and he said that after this graduating class he heard hiring will be slowing down. If you want it that bad no matter how good a test taker you are you will put in the study time and shine on test day.

[paratrooper75 41]

How can you guys share an opinion if you didn't even take the test. There was no way to study for the part everyone is upset about so you can't "shine" on test day.

[x134 46]

How can you guys share an opinion if you didn't even take the test. There was no way to study for the part everyone is upset about so you can't "shine" on test day.

←

Because I have taken the test and as I said the more tests you take the more familiar you are with the questioning . Sorry for trying to help. Don't get mad at me.

[Guest]

Because I have taken the test and as I said the more tests you take the more familiar you are with the questioning . Sorry for trying to help. Don't get mad at me.

←

well, again like paratrooper said, you didnt take THIS test.

I understand the more you take tests, the better you get...and i'm SURE like myself, many others who took this test, have taken past tests, and some will more than likly also tell you that this test was like no other....its not an excuse, you simply couldnt have studied for that material on this exam, nor were most even aware it was going to be there....thats why the majority aced the other questions,cause they did study!

[Guest]

Look, lets not beat around the bush. And, in all honesty, stop whining about the test, its format, and the way it was scored. It's a civil service test, and all of them are - in a general fashion - to test one's general knowledge/competency/ability to critically think. You can't go into any standardized test thinking "oh i'm going to come out on top!" or "im gonna get hired for sure!" Studying pays off, no doubt - but attacking the test properly is what is going to allow you to excel. So, you broke fresh ground with a newly designed test. The next time you take a civil service test you'll be more prepared. You do the best you can do, and if 89 is the best you can do, great job, if 95 is the best you can do awesome. Ill put money on the fact that you'll do well on the next test you take. From reading all the rants about the test, its almost as if you all thought you were going to bang out a 99 and wait for that letter in the mail and now your pissing and moaning that you didn't do as well as you thought. Its a learning experience, learn from it. I just don't understand why anyone would waste their time and money to commute to Brooklyn to complain about a handful of question that are each worth 1/3 of a point, and the chances of those few points pushing you to the front of the probie candidate line is slim.

Edited February 24, 2007 by 66Alpha1

[calhobs 110]

How can you guys share an opinion if you didn't even take the test. There was no way to study for the part everyone is upset about so you can't "shine" on test day.

←

How can you study for the phsycological section of the exam, all you have to do is answer the questions consistintly. No i did not take this test but it is the same phsycological exam that is given on most test that have one which there are many. Once again how would you study for it ???????

[Guest]

Well 66Alpha

I wont say you dont have a valid point. Yes, its very true, a test is a test, and you learn from them. And its always a HUGE mistake to take a test thinking you will come out on top. I've said it before and I'll say it again, over-confidence and ego will kill you and should be left out of the fire service. BUT, being a retired member of the city, I can understand and sympathize for some of the candidates, and I'll emphasize, SOME. Those who put the time in to study. Those who have taken tests in the past and had a great understanding of what they are all about. Those who are truly in love with the job and will stop at nothing to get it.

Once again, you present a valid point, but like someone here said, you did not take this exam, therefore you cannot judge any of the candidates for feeling the way they do. Yes, back in the day, the exam was extremely easy, where protesting it was such a waste of time, because if you couldnt break 90 on the past exams...well, hit the books. But this exam was different, and many of these hopeful youngsters who can become the future of the job, are disappointed in that they put in all they could, and in return, the city throws a curve ball of unfair questions which have no place on the written portion (thats why there's a pysch. down the road).

You say, lets stop beating around the bush. Well, again, you are right technically...to a point. Whats done is done, and learn from it becuase it really isnt an easy task to accomplish, but don't accuse some people of complaining and whining or crying....I see why you might think that way, but you might want to try to put yourself in their shoes and understand the situation a little better before jumping in like you did it all.

With that being said...good luck to everyone! Dont get your hopes up, but always remember things arent over until its over. Keep your heads high and try to push forward, despite what the end results might be.

Be safe and Take care, EVERYONE

[Oswegowind 17]

2 things!

1. All of you need to learn how to spell psychological.

2. If everyone took the exam and had to answer all the same questions and some people are just crazy and got them wrong...well that is too bad!

Psychological sections are always difficult cause they catch you thinking instead of just answering the question. Most people try to figure out what the test-makers are looking for and not for just what makes sense!

[CFD320 35]

Here is my opinion on this; I took the test and scored reasonably well...

I don't think the personality section of the test can be studied for. You get what you get on it, I went over that section of the test at least 3 times slowly and still got 7 questions wrong, 2 1/3 points off...Those test are designed to be impossible to fool, they are actually testing for a pattern of answers rather than certain answers, as evidenced by the key. Complaining about that section of the test is a waste of time IMO.

I did miss the last 3 questions on the timed section. Now I realize that is only 3/8 of a point but If I knew that section was timed I would have worn a digital watch and would not have run out of time...

What I have a problem with is that the FDNY training sessions that I attended NEVER told us there was a timed portion and never mentioned the personality section. I firmly believe that the instructors were not given the correct materials, they didn't just overlook it. We were all told we were walking into a 100 question test and you had better nail the memorization or you were screwed. I was dumbfounded when I walked in fully prepared for the exam and felt as if I had no clue what was going on.

In retrospect I think if I took that test again right now I would score 3/8 of a point higher than I did. Hopefully, that 3/8 doesn't cost me the chance to get on. So will I be protesting any specific questions: no we all took the same ones. But that does not mean I was thrilled about being thrown a curve when I was told to expect a fastball.

Edited February 24, 2007 by CFD320

[JM15 386]

Coming up this weekend, does anyone know where and what time?

[paratrooper75 41]

Its printed on your results.

[FFD941 20]

First off I did take the test...

If my memory serves me correctly I believe that not only did the proctors of the test state that there was a timed section, but in the couple pages of directions that we were told to read stated that there was a timed section.

I always rely on the old saying...

"Believe Nothing of What You Hear and Only Have of What You See"

I will NOT being protesting any questions, there is always another test.

[Guest]

hmm..interesting, sounds like alot of ppl werent happy with the exam, but no one is going to protest the questions.... sounds good

good luck everyone

[Guest]

The instructions on the back of the answers were not clear, does anyone know if you have to show up on Saturday or if you can protest questions by mail?

[Guest]

i think you can protest by mail, but not sure...i think you need to go to at least look at the book to know which questions you want to protest...

also, everyone has a different site to go to, just like the test

[Guest]

You shouldn't be there to protest certain answers because that's not going to help you AT ALL.

You SHOULD, however, go and protest the test as a whole. This test was complete BULLSH*T. It tested nothing and only serves those who want to diversify the department regardless of the impact it has on the caliber of person that can meet the low standards this test established.

I didn't come from a firefighting family OR a firefighter community (prior to volunteering) and NO ONE recruited me. I took the test, however many years ago, becuase I WANTED TO. Everyone else can do the same, it's not like they keep the exam information a secret!

Edited March 2, 2007 by lfdR1

[Guest]

You shouldn't be there to protest certain answers because that's not going to help you AT ALL.

You SHOULD, however, go and protest the test as a whole.  This test was complete BULLSH*T.  It tested nothing and only serves those who want to diversify the department regardless of the impact it has on the caliber of person that can meet the low standards this test established.

I didn't come from a firefighting family OR a firefighter community (prior to volunteering) and NO ONE recruited me.  I took the test, however many years ago, becuase I WANTED TO.  Everyone else can do the same, it's not like they keep the exam information a secret!

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well, thats what I'm sure alot of people are going for. that key thing that made this test bullsh*t as you say was certain sections, caue the remaining sections were the same as previous tests. you say they dont keep the exam info. a secret, well, in this case, they kind of did, cause no one (including guys on the job) were expecting that....who knows

I do know that in past protests, approx. 2-3 questions do get thrown out, but considering that amts. of ppl who might show up this time around, and who will complain about the same thing...maybe more...only God can tell ya!

again, good luck

[paratrooper75 41]

So if a question is protested by someone and its changed does that changed answer effect just his test or everyones results?

[Guest]

Never had to do this before, so I cant give you a positive answer, only what I have been told. You'd think that if it was changed for one person, it should be changed for everyone (that would only be fair, correct?), but I believe it only changes the answer for those who protested. The reason being is the city is only going to be looking at the exams of those who protested, not all 22,00 who took the test. For those who dont protest the answer (whether in person, or by mail), the city will assume that you are fine with what you got, or you simply just dont care. Everyone should also have different sites I believe, but they DO give you an opportunity to do it by mail (not sure of that procedure).

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Taz288 8]

I went to the session this morning there were several hundred people, maybe even 500 down there. DCAS was way overwhelmed. FYI anyone who put A for question 18 on the speed section, after looking at the test, it was definitely graded wrong. A was the correct answer even though the proposed answer key said B. Also there are a few people really trying to organize a serious protest, They got NY 1 there is morning and yesterday at the WTC.

I found this on the fdny rant page:

ProtestFDNY6019@gmail.com

« Thread Started on 2/22/07 at 13:41 »

Hey everyone,

The email account is finally up and running. If you want to be added to the email database please send an email to

ProtestFDNY6019@gmail.com

I already have a list of people who need to be added, so if you already sent me a message saying you want to join the fight to protest this scam exam then you will be put on there, if you haven't sent me a message already then please email us at that account and you will be added to the list.

Also, if anyone already on the FDNY wants to help us in any way feel free to email us and let us know, we will take any help we can get.

Our first step will be getting organized for the protest session since that is coming up shortly.

Please pass this email address on to everyone you know who took the test, we need as many people as possible to get involved.

-----------------------------------------------

FROM NY1

FDNY Applicants Protest The Hiring Exam

March 03, 2007

Some potential firefighters said a section of the city's hiring exam administered last month is nothing short of a joke.

Dozens of applicants who took the firefighters exam lined up Saturday in front of Washington Irving High School in Gramercy Park to protest the exam.

They say the questions were unfair and not what they expected in a firefighters exam.

“There were opinionated questions that were out of left field,” said Sean Pogan, who took the exam. “Everything that we studied for was not enough to prepare us for that.”

"These 104 opinionated questions were just totally bizarre,” said another applicant. “And it was just totally a shock to everyone who took this test, whether it was someone who took the test or the prep."

Some also say the way the test was administered was completely disorganized and chaotic.

“On everybody's testing card they said do not bring a cell phone onto the testing site, otherwise you'll be disqualified and escorted from the site,” said applicant Luke Crisalli. “I didn't see people on [the cell phones] but you could hear them. People probably were text messaging. Camera phones were being used and proctors were not doing anything.”

The Department of Citywide Administrative Services says the exam was developed by working firefighters who helped identify important aspects of their job.

The protestors are hoping that the DCAS throws out the test.

[Guest]

oh ya...NY1 was also at my site (so was some other news paper, but didnt see the name), and interviewed a bunch of us...even a crap load of FDNY guys were there...i think they were parents.

when we went outside, all the parents were like ranting and raving on the streets about the exam and how it was uncalled for...hell, even when i was in the room, i couldnt concentrate cause everyone was talking to each other about the test, i was like, "shut up, i'm trying to write sh%t here!", lol

The DCAS personnel were definitely shocked...i heard them mutter stuff to each other, pretty much saying how they werent expecting all these people...

[Taz288 8]

from an email I got

Fighting 6019,

Most of you have shot me emails asking, "On what grounds are you fighting this test?" and "What progress have you made?". I have also received

emails asking about the organization and what people can do to help. So I have thrown some things together and hopefully this email will answer all your questions.

"Fighting 6019"

Fighting 6019 was formed when a few students from John Jay College decided that enough was enough. (By the way, we do not represent the school in any way)

We were fed up, we left that test not knowing what to think, just like all of you. Two people had an idea, now we have an organization. My name is Dominick R. DeRubbio

and I am one of the two founders of this group. On September 11th 2001, I lost my uncle, firefighter David P. DeRubbio in the south tower. These past years have been extremely

rough on my family, however we have held strong. September 11th motivated me even more to want to join New York City's Bravest. Throughout my life I have become so connected

to the New York City Fire Department, no way am I letting this test stand in my way. You should all look at this test as a slap in the face, a slap in the face to the future firefighters and for

the one's who have passed.

Moving along, I would like all of you to know that I am no stranger to protest. Last year I protested the underground 9/11 memorial, no names were to be put underground, we wouldnt let it happen.

So for three nights I slept in the freezing cold on the streets near Ground Zero, during the day I would speak to visitors and gain petition signatures. Eventually the names would be moved above ground.

Goal

1) Have the subjective questions thrown out or the entire test

"So on what grounds?"

1) 105 opinionated questions

-These questions were not taught at any of the prep courses-we were mislead, wake up

-According to the fire department web site, no fire department knowledge was needed for the test- you could have fooled me( how about all those questions regarding rank and file and how to deal with certain situations?)

-Given there was a change in the Notice of Examination, not everyone received it

2) Test Day

-Accounts of proctors giving wrong directions to test takers

-Accounts of proctors speaking to each other during the test

-Accounts of cheating during the test

3) Male/ Female- Caucasian/ African American/ Other/ Etc.

- I was told by my proctor to fill in all the bubbles on the sheet, I was not told that the race/sex bubbles were optional. Since this is an equal opportunity employment exam, they shouldn't have had that section on the exam.

- Earlier this week, we were on New York 1, we are making progress!!

Closing Statement

1) We are in touch with a lawyer

2) We are having a protest March 25th-12 noon Union Square

3) Spread the word people!!!

These past 3 weeks, I have lived this test, my school and work life have become unimportant. I am not asking you to do the same but I am asking that you spread the word like wildfire.

Stay strong,

Dominick R. DeRubbio

(Tyler)

Fighting 6019

[CFD320 35]

What about those of us that rolled with the punches and scored well anyway?

[calhobs 110]

What about those of us that rolled with the punches and scored well anyway?

←

You may be screwed if the protest goes through

[Guest]

Forget, "who did well"!

This test may very well have allowed A LOT of unqualified people to do well to, simply because it was a sham of a test.

This job pays SH1T, yet people are lined up around the block to take it. Doesn't that mean you can RAISE standards? You could make a master degree a requierment and I bet you people would be clammering to there MBA so they could get this job. (Okay, maybe I exagerated)

The point is, how can you say, "Well, 15000 people took a test in 2002 for a couple of thousand jobs, but we better make the requierements lower so we can get more people to take the test".

Ummmmmmm, what?

The test was easy 4 years ago, but nothing like this. You can't study hard enough to get on? TO BAD, you clearly didn't want it!!

We should all be out there protesting the fundamentals of this exam and the recruitment process!

Best of luck to all who truly want to go to work and work for that chance.

[Guest]

I have to agree...no one on this really knows who I am and what I stand for, but I usually dont go to extremes like this protest...but for once, I must say that this test def. deserves some attention. And people cant even say that its just a bunch of sore losers, cause its also FDNY guys who are complaining. They were at the protest, and even the guys i know (high ranking guys) are also in support of them.

For those of you who scored well, listen up...i'm not denying you scored well, cause I did ok myself, but the point is, you couldve and shoulve scored BETTER if that section wasnt there! Maybe you have, but I havnt seen one guy get a 100 yet without the bonus points! thats saying something! I myself wouldve gotten a hundred if that pscyh. section wasnt there. Then some of you say, deal with it, thats what a test is about?! to argue that, you shouldve gone to FDNY tutorials, cause not for any second did they even mention the idea of timed sections (which I dont care about at all) and the pysch. How can they prepare you for something that was never even there? and they preached how the tutorials were a big deal to prep. the candidates.

I know alot of you prob. disagree and would even turn around to call those who are unhappy "sore-losers" or a bunch of complainers, and thats youre right...I wouldnt think that this protests would at all screw anyone on the exam, ESPECIALLY those who did well! if anything, this might help you bump your scores from 90's to 100+ (might be a long shot, but who knows right?)

in a nutshell, it just sucked, and some people are obviously willing to go to certain measures to make sure things get looked at or changed

[Taz288 8]

Fighting 6019 members and supporters,

Tomorrow will be the much anticipated protest rally. Support has been pouring in from everywhere. Dozens and dozens of FDNY firehouses have been visited throughout the 5 boroughs and many have committed to attend. Many individuals including private citizens, firefighters(retired and active) and members of the media have committed to attend.

At the rally tomorrow we will state our complaints with the examination. We will hand out sample exam question sheets of the highly subjective questions to further prove the absolute ridiculousness of the exam.

We will hand out our Official Declaration of Protest against the entire exam and read it to the public. We will distribute candidate's and private citizen's protest affirmation sheets that will allow any person to enter a formal protest against the examination in unity with FIGHTING 6019.

We will continuously state and restate how diverse we are in every way. We wish to make it clear that this exam hurt all candidates and that no ethnic group or any group for that matter did any better than another.

We will then issue a public challenge to ALL fraternal organizations, firefighter's unions and politicians to stand united with us. We have informed as many of the fraternal organizations as possible as well as the unions and politicians of our challenge for them. We are hoping that our diversity will incite the organizations to put aside their differences and unite and work together for this common goal. Every organization contacted is very unhappy with this test and like us, wants it thrown out.

We have also had a change in the way things work on our end. From now on, no individual from within FIGHTING 6019 will be addressing all members of the protestfdny6019@gmail.com list as an individual. We as the protest group leaders speak with one voice. You as a member will now only be receiving factual updates that have been approved by multiple members.

We are still actively seeking motivated individuals who want to join us on the front lines of this battle. You will see most of us for the first time tomorrow and we look forward to meeting all of you.

Please keep checking www.fighting6019.com on a daily basis. We are working hard to add new content and keep you updated.

Have a great night, we will see you tomorrow at 12 Noon in Union Square Park. Your dissatisfaction with exam # 6019 will be felt tomorrow. BRING A PEN!!!

-Stay Strong

Edited March 24, 2007 by Taz288