L.I. FD's Response Times In Question

[Truck4 48]

Slow response times reflect the nature of LI's fire department system, dependent on volunteers.

BY EDEN LAIKIN AND ELIZABETH MOORE

Brentwood fire officials say they are conducting an internal investigation in the aftermath of a Feb. 2 house fire where three people died, after releasing records showing the first volunteer engine did not arrive at the scene for almost 13 minutes after 911 was called.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisla...inews-headlines

[Guest partyrock]

Voulenteer ff response times suck in many places, but people don't want to do what has to be done to change it and this article doesn't mention that. I love when they highlight a problem and just leave it out there for people to assume the volleys are just being lazy and slacking off. If volleys are comming from home to the house and then responding its going to take time. If you want fast response times you've gotta start coughing up the cash and paying ff's. Sadly, I don't see volleys spending nights at the house around here. Its one those things that just isn't done and would take a dramatic change in attitude. Just like on the EMS side if you can't provide an effective service in a reasonable amoutn of time its time to step asside and bring in a system that can.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Well said partyrock! The majority of people do not realize that volunteers must first respond to the firehouse, from wherever they may be and then respond to the call. Depending on the size of the district and how many "active" members you have, the times will obviously vary.

Partyrock, you had mentioned the idea of vollys staying at the firehouse. I've often thought about that myself. Its not a bad idea, however i couldn't see it working 100%. I look at departments in Maryland, Virginia and even Pennsylvania that have vollys on in-house duty crews. Seems to work great for them, unfortunately i coulnd't see it happening here.

As far as communities going to career fire service, you know how that goes. As a volunteer, i am not against career depts. or FFs at all. But it just doesn't seem justified for certain communities, unfortunately. Unless communities get together and create regional fire departments, such as North Hudson Regional FD in New Jersey.

Response times for any emergency service providers always have been and always will be in question. The question is, what can be done to improve them all around?

[BIGRED1 71]

Think about how this might look to people who read the articles about how much money LI spends on its Fire Departments. in that article they talked about how some fire houses where right on top of one another. they had large amounts of money coming in from the state and state of the art equipment and all that. But if the guys can't respond in a timely fashion then maybe thats why they need to rethink their options. i know this is just one incident but i am sure that the response times are always like this and in a job were seconds count you need guys going to the call when the call comes in, not to the fire house then the fire. maybe a combination department where you have your paid guys drive the rig to the call and have the vols keep their gear in the car to respond straight to the call. That would shave response times down, which in turn would effect the towns fire rating and most likely save lives and property. There are only 2 Paid departments in LI so maybe it's time to raise that number and form a few more. Consolidate a few fire districts and group towns together. they have the facilities already built, its just a matter of getting guys into the houses.

Edited February 24, 2007 by ECLEMENTE

[27east 19]

The only paid departments on Long Island are the Northport VAFD, Brookahven National Lab Fire Rescue and MacArthur Airport Fire Rescue. I don't know about the NY ANG 106th Air Rescue Wing out at Grabeski (Suffolk County) Airport.

Dix Hills, Garden City, Long Beach and Melville have some career members.

[Guest]

The only paid departments on Long Island are the Northport VAFD, Brookahven National Lab Fire Rescue and MacArthur Airport Fire Rescue. I don't know about the NY ANG 106th Air Rescue Wing out at Grabeski (Suffolk County) Airport.

Dix Hills, Garden City, Long Beach and Melville have some career members.

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Garden City AND Long Beach have numerous career members.

30-40 in Garden City and 20-30 in Long Beach.

I've never heard of any other career union firefighters other than those 2 departments in L.I.

[Guest]

just for arguement sake...the article stated that this was much slower than this departments average response time...there was delayed dispatch and maybe there is more to this story than Newsday is telling...oh and hiring a guy to get the rig there in 3 min...but w/out FFs, wouldn't of solved this problem.

[Guest partyrock]

oh and hiring a guy to get the rig there in 3 min...but w/out FFs, wouldn't of solved this problem.

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It does save time in that ff's go straight to the scene instead of to the FH and then to the scene. Its definately not without its drawbacks, but its a system that works very well in several communities.

[Guest]

It does save time in that ff's go straight to the scene instead of to the FH and then to the scene.  Its definately not without its drawbacks, but its a system that works very well in several communities.

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good point... my point was that it decreases the official response time, but that doesn't mean there's water on the fire

[Guest partyrock]

I'm not talking about getting apperatus on scene. I'm talking about getting 15 ff's on scene in less than 9 minutes 90% of the time.

[BIGRED1 71]

well the way i look at it if you get a couple of guys on scene quick, they can hit the hydrant, and start a search or pull a line, just get the ball rolling. I know they are not gonna knock it down with a couple of guys but you have a four man crew on a truck or engine and they can get some work done while the vols are on their way in. Time is of the essence, a fire truck sitting in the apparatus bay is not helping anyone. now i know that you hit traffic and sometimes the weather is not on your side but the respond to the call system has worked in my company and i think that it could work in alot of the ones in LI.

[Taz288 8]

The only paid departments on Long Island are the Northport VAFD, Brookahven National Lab Fire Rescue and MacArthur Airport Fire Rescue. I don't know about the NY ANG 106th Air Rescue Wing out at Grabeski (Suffolk County) Airport.

Dix Hills, Garden City, Long Beach and Melville have some career members.

←

Long Beach & GC are the only ones that have paid crews, but it is only 1 engine, its not the entire dept. I think LB also has a crew for the ambulance.

As for Dix Hills and Melville, they have houseman that are released from their duties to be first responders. Dix Hills also has a paid medic, that responds in a fly car. Dix hills' first repsonder is a mini lt rescue truck with a small tank and pump, its only got 2 people on it, Melville's first responder, responds in a sprinter ambulance.

There are a lot of depts on LI that are going to some sort of paid ems, most have at least a fly car during the business hours.

As for Brentwood's times, There avg response time is tops on the Island, newsday has a tendency to twist the #s around. They are very liberal and one sided, and are not good at reporting facts, but their opinions

Also at least in Suffolk there is always a bit of a delay from the 911 call to when units get activated, because first it goes to 911, then they have to contact the fire/ems dispatchers at county, who then have to advised the FD. A call that goes through 911 can take several minutes before the FD is activated, since the county only activated 1/4 of the depts in Suffolk, most of the depts in the western part of the town self dispatch

Edited February 25, 2007 by Taz288

[Guest]

Hopefully they find a good solution quickly. I'm for fully staffing at least and engine - engine and ladder would be preferable. Don't know much about LI depts but i was on the sunrise highway on the way to the girlfriend's place and i stumbled upon a nasty rollover. Stopped to help out and within 5 minutes Nassau County paramedics were o/s. Very cool guys. Interesting system, they respond 1 medic in an ambulance and the county cops drive for them. Little off topic, i know, but cool none-the-less.

[Guest]

As for Brentwood's times, There avg response time is tops on the Island, newsday has a tendency to twist the #s around. They are very liberal and one sided, and are not good at reporting facts, but their opinions

Very true. The Journal News would never do that, would they? Yeah right.

Also at least in Suffolk there is always a bit of a delay from the 911 call to when units get activated, because first it goes to 911, then they have to contact the fire/ems dispatchers at county, who then have to advised the FD. A call that goes through 911 can take several minutes before the FD is activated, since the county only activated 1/4 of the depts in Suffolk, most of the depts in the western part of the town self dispatch

And that doesn't happen in Westchester? Oh wait, the police get the 911 call and "check it out" first.

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[SteveOFD 176]

The problem with minimum manpower on the first apparatus, with everyone else responding to the scene is addressed in NFPA 1720 the Volunteer Fire Department standard.

Section 4.2.2.1 states "Upon assembling the neccessary resources at the emergency scene, the fire department shall have the capability to safely initiate an initial attack within two minutes ninety percent of the time". Section 4.2.2.2 goes on to state "Initial attack operations shall be organized to ensure that at least four members shall be assembled before initiating interior fire suppression operations at a working structural fire."

The way I read this is as soon as the first four members arrive at the scene they have two minutes to start initial attack. How many FF's can suit up with mask, stretch a line and be ready to flow water in two minutes? It seems like a stretch in this scenario. IMO the way it reads it is almost better to wait for for the extra manpower to arrive at the Firehouse, this way you know you have the capability to meet the two minute time once on scene. The difference between 1720 and 1710, the Career standard, is that in 1710 there are set times the FD must be on scene from the time the alarm is received. 1720 only states the time from arriving on scene.

[Guest]

So, per NFPA 1720, if you respond 15 minutes after the alarm and four FFs arrive and make the initial attack on the pile of ash that was my house, within two minutes, the NFPA says thats ok?

[SteveOFD 176]

That's the way I read it. You can find it online with a search for "NFPA 1720". Read for yourself.

[weaselff 6]

Most LI fire departments are anything but volunteer. Fire districts have "custodians", "mechanics" or "groundskeepers" who "coincidentally" happen to be company members and apparatus operators. While Newsday has been particularly vicious, many(but not all) fire districts on Long Island have long abused public funding for extravagant firehouses, parties and apparatus.

As for the incident in question, lets just say Brentwood is a community that has seen better days. For a Westchester perspective think of the bad part of Mount Vernon relying first due on volunteers and for mutual aid. While not an incorporated village or city, it is a low income-high density "hamlet" within the town of Islip in Suffolk county. This department does alot of work, much more then any volunteer department in Westchester. With multiple structure fires every week they do an outstanding job, but something like this tragedy was bound to happen someday. This community and alot of other communties on the island need to evalutate how they approach fire supression in the 21st century.

[Taz288 8]

for those not familiar with Brentwood they do about 1500 runs (fire only) ems is separate and they do close to 6000 runs. Over the last 5 yrs I would say BFD avgs 30-40 working structure fires a year. They have already had 7 in the first 6 weeks of the year.

[HFD23 37]

The problem with minimum manpower on the first apparatus, with everyone else responding to the scene is addressed in NFPA 1720 the Volunteer Fire Department standard.

Section 4.2.2.1 states "Upon assembling the neccessary resources at the emergency scene, the fire department shall have the capability to safely initiate an initial attack within two minutes ninety percent of the time". Section 4.2.2.2 goes on to state "Initial attack operations shall be organized to ensure that at least four members shall be assembled before initiating interior fire suppression operations at a working structural fire."

The way I read this is as soon as the first four members arrive at the scene they have two minutes to start initial attack. How many FF's can suit up with mask, stretch a line and be ready to flow water in two minutes? It seems like a stretch in this scenario. IMO the way it reads it is almost better to wait for for the extra manpower to arrive at the Firehouse, this way you know you have the capability to meet the two minute time once on scene. The difference between 1720 and 1710, the Career standard, is that in 1710 there are set times the FD must be on scene from the time the alarm is received. 1720 only states the time from arriving on scene.

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Attack with in 2 minutes off arrival shouldn't be an issue you should arrive in full PPE with SCBA all u need to do is pull a line and flake out the kinks and mask up. I have seen 2 FF's accomplish this in less then 2 minutes and is defiantly attainable. Most rigs have 500 gallons or more that is immediately available that in most cases when response times are low should allow for quick knock downs with just tank water.

If you read on 4.2.2.3 initial attack can and begin immediately upon arrival when there is life hazard or the risk of serious injury that can be prevented. This must be in accordance with NFPA 1500.

Lets face it common sense is if you pull up and people are trapped putting a line in operation immediately between the trapped persons and the fire could save their lives nothing leads to improved interior conditions then a quick effective knock down of the fire.

[SteveOFD 176]

Attack with in 2 minutes off arrival shouldn't be an issue you should arrive in full PPE with SCBA all u need to do is pull a line and flake out the kinks and mask up. I have seen 2 FF's accomplish this in less then 2 minutes and is defiantly attainable.

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I agree, it should not be an issue if your manpower is fully suited up arriving on an apparatus. My point was that it is significantly more difficult if the apparatus arrives with only the Driver, and responding personnel need to suit up at the scene. Rather difficult to suit up, pack up, stretch line and be ready for attack all within two minutes.