Croton/Montrose structure fires 09/15/04

[BFD1054 1,552]

As an lieutenant with the Buchanan FD, i would just like to say great job to all involved with todays working fires in the Cortland area! For a daytime call, resources were limited, but everyone came together, worked well and in the end, it all worked out! The tri-village, or shall i say quad village (gotta include Croton), did a hell of a job handling these incidents. Furthermore, if it weren't for the Mutual aid companies, both on scene & on stand-by, things may have been different. Today just goes to show that mutual-aid can and will work when taken advantage of and used properly! Also, a job well done by the fine men and women working the consoles at 60-Control =D> !

[Remember585 815]

Some info from the Croton fire.

Original dispatch was for an AUTOMATIC ALARM.

A cell 911 call was made to 60 control reporting a kitchen fire, 60 control landlined CPD who redispatched same. On arrival of CPD they confirmed a working fire. E120 was first on the road, E119 was 2nd out and requested a FAST from Ossining. On arrival of E119, a request to 60 control was made for Ossining to the scene and Yorkown's FAST to the scene. Building was once the "Croton Playhouse / lodge," and was constructed of stone and heavy timber. Fire originated in the kitchen area and rapidly spread due to the amount of voids and fire load. E120 was in the driveway with a 5" supply line, and had 6 lines operating. E119 was on the "D" side with a 5" supply line as a backup which was never used. TL44 staged at the A/D corner unable to manuever to gain access to the roof. E118 and R18 were on location as well. Original IC was 119-1 (Captain) and then 2085 (D.C.) and finally 2081. On arrival fire was coming through a skylight, another opening in the roof along a vent and from a window on the "A" side. Crews stretched lines inside knocking down the bulk of the fire in minutes. However, due to some "modifications" to the house, fire was hiding throughout insidewall and roof voids. Crews from the mutual aid companies were of a GREAT HELP in assisting with this fire - and as the original IC I THANK ALL OF YOU!

Croton Units: E118, E119, E120, TL44, R18, 2081, 2084, 2085, 2086, 2089, 20811, 55B2.

Ossining: 2332, E98, U51 FAST

Yorktown: 2533, E270 FAST

Buchanan: 2554, 2556, U12

Bedford Hills: 2035, TL57 FAST

Ossining VAC: 74A1, 36M1

Covering at Station #3:

Originally Montrose 2273, E121 (had to leave for a fire of their own)

Briarcliff 2051, E94.

Thanks again for all the help! Also - 60 Control THANKS!

[57crew 1]

weird how the county was so quiet and then 3 major fires in 2 days

[Remember585 815]

57 - its the quiet before the storm. And I've always been told that fires come in threes....

[Cutty630 37]

Mark it was so quiet when you were around, you leave and look what happens :cry:

[57crew 1]

cutty don't worry i have had my time and i'll have it again, look at the bright side we're putting them out and going home safe

[hudson144 150]

AMAZING HOW BOTH 10-75 FIRES WERE BOTH AUTOMATIC ALARMS!

[dc2t 80]

Wheres [-X the Gear???

[Pyroinvestigator 0]

Ah....SOMEONE noticed....!!!!

Those are nomex tee shirts & invisable gloves and SCBA's

[Guest SilentMajority]

Gotta love the monday morning quarterbacks.

[BFD1054 1,552]

hudson, you made an excellent point! I have always tried to stress to my guys the importance of gearing up, even when its "only" an automatic alarm. It happens all the time, all around the country, where depts get dispatched to auto alarms and they are actually working jobs. I love when you see guys (many times they are wearing a white hat) calmly walk into a house just thinking they're gonna do paper work, wearing no gear at all. Its even better when they come running out screaming that theres a fire. Well, that would explain why the alarm is going off i guess. We've had this discussion soo many times, as i am sure many depts have. I just can't stand when guys say "oh, its only an automatic alarm, probably false." Yes, 9 out of 10 times it may be false, but as we all saw from yesterday, that 1 call may be a working fire. My point is, guys need to realize that anything can happen at any time, and even a "bs" call can turn into something, so be ready & for crying out loud GEAR UP!

I too saw the pictures in the Journal News today and said the same thing. I'm not criticizing one bit, but those guys probably know better, but it was their choice not to have full gear on. If s**t hit the fan, they may have been in trouble, but they probably knew that. You can only stress the importance of proper PPE so many times, guys will do what they want. The reason i won't criticize is because i'm just as guilty. Theres been plenty of times where i took my gloves off, unbuttoned my coat or even removed the regulator on my scott pac when maybe i shouldn't have. So we can all sit here and be "monday morning quarterbacks" all we want, but the guys in the pictures hopfully knew that they should have been wearing all their gear.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/

[Guest DG795]

Should roof crews be wearing full PPE, yes. However it is important to understand that the footage was taken about threee hours into the incident, during debris removal. This was not a roof vent operation, it was removing the top, outside roofing to gain access to the hidden roof below, for soak down. Should full PPE be worn, yes. But based on the time consuming, manpower intensive operation this turned out to be, in is inevitable that guys are going to start shedding the gear.

[DMA327 12]

In reguards to what DG posted, yes anybody working on a roof doing vent ops. should have full gear. There were a couple in the beginning stages who didn't and probably will have a talking to, but in the latter part of the operation the guys were so tired from cutting the roof(s)! off the whole day that many people were shedding their gear off their backs because of the weight. I can speak for myself saying I did have my gear on but I can't recall my coat ever weighing so much.

There ain't any better sight than seeing the roof getting pulled off and another roof right below it. But it got even better when there was a third roof below the second roof, not to mention the wooden walls inside which were sheet-rocked three times over inside!

Much thanks goes to Yorktown and Ossining fire departments with helping vent the roofs and for Buchanan fire dept's help inside trying to breach through walls, as well as BHFD standing fast as the FAS Team! Thanks alot fellas!

A nice round of applaus to county fire control as well for their help with trying to make the best of a bad situations...THANKS =D>

[Remember585 815]

I knew I liked DG for a reason!

The reason you see guys on the roof without their FULL PPE envelope is simple. The guys took a beating, and since they were not exposed to an IDLH environment this late in the game - it was not a critical concern of our Commanders.

I too am a believer in doing everything by the book. But until you are thrown in the driver's seat and have to run the show, you will realize some things that are in the book need to be reconsidered - safety in mind - to benefit those working their asses off for you.

Monday morning quarterbacks - go find another game to enjoy.

[hudson144 150]

we all know that we at times judge the way an alarm is transmitted,another bs automatic alarm,another food on the stove call,another oil burner malfunction,well-usually this is the way a fire starts! I know that I am one of those guilty one's. oh **** its a JOB! thought it was going to be a false alarm,recently when i stopped in the quAarters of 62 eng,32 trk in the bronx to visit a friend and grab a cup of coffee they were dispatched to an commercial alarm,watching those guys put a reminder in my brain that whatever you are dispatched to might be the real thing,all of those members including the officers rolled out of the house dressed to kill,from gloves to hoods they were ready to go to work!i know at times we all hold back but the few times that there is a fire or hazard its to our best interest to get ready to work! b safe!

[mfc2257 464]

Agreed.... Ready to work it's the only way to be. Every time Millwood goes to a call we stress that our guys should be ready to work. Every call is a training opportunity for us. The Lieutenants or senior FF's are supposed to be giving assignments on the back of the rig and when each FF steps off, they get their equipment and stand-by awaiting orders. If this doesn't happen we usually (even if it is an obvious false alarm) will tell them to return to their apparatus and get the equipment that they need to do their job. Although this doesn't happen often any more. The biggest problem is to get some of the older guys (not all) to break the habits that were acceptable years ago. We need to act like professionals OR professionals (paid) will replace us some day.

Edward Smith

Captain (2254)

Millwood Fire Co.

[CFD320 35]

I was on the roof of the building for three hours or more. As the other Croton guys here will tell you I and my company stresses full ppe on all calls, no matter how ridiculous they may seem. There is no excuse for the men on the roof without full PPE throughout the entire incident. I was one of the violators, when I got to the point that my turnout coat had to go for a few minuets to cool down, I should have gone to the rehab area. Fresh bodies willing to perform grueling roof ops were a commodity at this particular incident. There were men on the roof for far too long with no rest which lead to the lack of PPE. Unexcusable reality.

I have never seen or experienced this type of roof over roof over roof, each layer had multiple shingle layers, plywood etc. To complicate matters the last roof that was added was spaced with 2x18 which created a huge concealed void over the entire structure. Which lay over yet another concealed void created by another add on roof over most of the structure.

I would like to extend my thanks to Chief Santucci and his crew from Ossining and later the Yorktown crew for their assistance with roof operations.

Fire is out, no one was hurt. A successful learning experience for all involved

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Monday morning quarterbacks? You are kidding me right. How bout if it looks like a duck its a duck. Or call a spade a spade. Just because we are all firefighters doesn't immune us from critiscism. There isn't soul in the fire service in this world that wouldn't pick apart those pictures. A picture is worth a 1000 words. And before anyone decides to get defensive, I'm not picking on that specific department, if it were my own I'd be twice as critical, and for those of you who know me, I have been there running the show. This post is clearly my opinion based on my experience as well as education background.

There is no excuse for what everyone saw. If you have to work like that, call in more mutual aid. Whats even worse is the officer clearly seen in the picture. Keep calling until you have the resources you need. This is a successful learning operation for everyone who saw those pictures, it is only a successful learning operation for that department if they realize there was a problem and correct it.

Here's another news flash. There was smoke/steam visible in those pictures. They are performing roof operations, IDLH is for SCBA, PPE is to protect you from a plethera of other injuries. Including the possiblilty of late structural collapse and the hundred other things looking to cause injury.

[57crew 1]

just one question for everyone about roof ops. when venting a roof at a fire i know we all need full PPE and SCBA, but should you be masked up when operating the K-12 or the cutters edge. i have heard both wearing the mask and just haveing the pack on w/o wearing the mask. any comments on what you do or what your SOP'S are on this.

[DMA327 12]

Anytime you are operating in an IDLH atmosphere you should always have you air on. However if you are not in any real danger, i do not see the need for air. You might need to save it for later.

If you're talking about just wearing a mask, i feel you should have at least the mask on b/c if your using either a K-12, a chain saw, or any type of cutting tool, the mask will give you better eye protection and you only have one pair of eyes!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The text book answer, and common sense safety answer is yes. If you are operating on a roof conducting vertical ventilation or some other roof function you should be on air. One of the prime examples I can think of why this should be is the case of Phoenix Ladder 27. Anyone who has seen it knows the one where a truck crew went throught the roof of a involved single story residential and survived. Almost all had SCBA donned, those whom didn't received some respiratory burns. Conditions can change in a flash. Read the LODD reports. Many deaths non-cardiac occur ABOVE the fire. Saved air will do you no good if your incapacitated or in a position of injury where you can't don it to use it. Not having it on won't protect you if there is a flare up of superheated gases out of the hole, or a window where your ladder is. As far as wearing the mask and not breathing air, again, half using PPE correctly. Mask fogs up, no purge valve to clear it. You'll have to don your SCBA then anyway. Bottom line is OSHA clearly gives definintions of what they call IDLH atmospheres. I recommend reading the respiratory protection standard to get an idea of what they consider. How many of you know that 2 in and 2 out, is actually a addition that is stricter then what non-fire service employers must follow. They only have to have 1. Perhaps OSHA learned how ignorant we are and why we need protection....FROM OURSELVES!

Real world: Yes I have and still do often vent while wearing my SCBA while not breathing air, and operating off an aerial device. Anytime I step foot on the roof, air goes on.

[Remember585 815]

No offense taken ALS - good points.

But nothing drives me madder then people making opinions when they don't know all the facts.

Lesson learned, no harm - no foul.

Now get away from your laptop and do some work!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

LOL....

Good outtake brother. I appreciate the professionalism as well.

[RWC130 594]

Lesson learned, no harm - no foul.

I have a lot of love and respect for you saying what you did,

well maybe not so much love. haha

In the fire service decisions have to be made with a lot of factors to consider some good decisions some bad ones. As firefighters we have to be cautious about making judgments, even more so when you are not on the scene.

ALSFirefighter and Remember585 all made some great points

lesson learned FIREFIGHTER SAFETY ALWAYS COMES FIRST!

In closing I'd like to say good job Croton Fire Department especially that cool dude "119-1" running the show early on. Fire was extinguished and no one got hurt.

EVERY call is a learning experience. I think we all can agree on that one???

[Guest]

I was there watching this fire.

It appeared as though more guys from out of town were not wearing gear then those from Croton. Who is the Croton DC who made them pull out? BAD CALL! Glad to see it didn't last. [-o<

I also made it up to Montrose's fire which was going on at the same time.

Good thing the paper wasn't at this fire, or this thread would be 4-5 pages long. ](*,)

Hose charged in the bed - guys standing around like they were too scared to go in. Lack of leadership and training leads to a mess!

[WAS967 97]

If you feel you can do a better job, feel free to take over next time.

[hudson144 150]

if you are going to run around the county and buff all the jobs thats fine,corective critisism is fine also. Its one thing if you are at a fire scene from the minute a puff of smoke rises from the building and you know what started the fire and its another thing if you are actually involved with fighting the fire,but to make comments about other departments when the dept actually did a great job is another. i was one of the 1st members involved in the montrose fire, yes the hose bed got charged because of a communication problem,the water supply was established and the attack lines were in place,the structure was vented asap with communication with the 1st in crew that did a nice job knocking a fire down that could have consumed the over 1 million $ house. a job well done! what did you see from the interior of the fire in the basement where the 1st crew went in? nothing! because you weren't in there! having an opinion is one of our rights in our nation and being verbal about things is fine also,however, I have been following fire trucks since I was 12 years old throughout the northern county.(32 years now) I have seen some bonehead moves and some great moves on the fireground,I try to keep my comments to myself because I have learned by others mistakes! This so called brotherhood is a bunch of crap! all we do is hammer each other when something goes wrong,critisize we do and thats fine if its corrective!am I little annoyed at being hammered? maybe but I know this-when you hammer another dept remember that the dept that you work for either career or vol. you are only on deck to be in the limelight! The depts involved in montrose did a great job, I was in there and saw what they did,the house was saved because of the people that were involved including the efforts of the mutual aid depts, and I know the people who own the house and they feel the same way,they have a "HOUSE" to re-model not a foundation to build on! Lets all knock this hammering of each other,its not good for any dept or any firefighter! BE safe!

[Remember585 815]

Hey pal, if you were at both fires and saw all this going on - how come you didn't pitch in and help instead of stand there like an a$$hole? I have no problem with criticism, as long as it comes from someone with the experience and knowledge to back it, and the balls to say it in person instead of hiding behind an alias.

Montrose has always been a good friend to us, and I have seen them in action and think they are damn good at what they do.

Find a new hobby - this one doesn't suit you.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Is Chrome Dome even a firefighter, doesn't sound like it to me! Hudson & Remember, very good posts/points! The majority of people on this network try to stay possitive and not get aggravated. But unfortunately, in this instance, someone posted some very negative thoughts. Hey, i've said it before, we all have the right to have opinions, but when you just plain bash a particular dept, you're just asking for people to jump down your throat! As hudson & Remember said, the Tri-Village, along with Croton, work very well together & are always there to help each other out, as was in this case. These depts are filled with excellent firefighters that know the task at hand and how to accomplish their overall goals. In my 6 years in Buchanan, i can't even begin to count how many times we have worked together, but when we do, there are never any major issues. If we have a job, Montrose becomes our Truck company, Croton our FASTeam & Verplanck will either cover or come to the scene, depending on the extent of the fire. Each dept knows where they stand & what their role is & this system has worked very well for us. It killed me to read this guys post about how he made both the Croton & Montrose fires, but yet he didn't help at all, sat with his thumb up his a$$, but yet has the b***s to criticize, no wait, bash the depts that handled those incidents! Instead of buffing jobs, get a life, use your head before opening your mouth & remember who may be reading your comments! As many of you have stated, each & every run we go on is a learning experience, so learn as much as you can when we go out on them! Maybe things could have been done differently at these incidents, as they can be at any alarm, but in the end, everyone came home, the house was saved & that should always be our end result!

Well guys, seems as though Crome Dome has realized that he can't say anything nice, so now he won't say anything at all!

http://emtbravo.just5buckshosting.com/phpB...opic.php?t=1768

[57crew 1]

hey just so everyone knows pictures from that incident are posted on firefighterclosecalls.com. it's under the gallery section and it talks about wearing your gear, good site you should check it out, it brings up a lot of the points that were brought up in this post.