Access to Services

[helicopper 1,050]

Recently I've noticed a lot of decals posted advertising the local emergency service(s) with a "Dial 555-1212" not 911. Here we are in 2007, 911 is almost universally known as the way to access emergency assistance yet we're telling our consituents to dial a seven digit phone number instead. Dialing in through a seven digit number doesn't provide the dispatcher with the same info as 911, the correct address and other info may not be available for starters...

Anybody have any idea why we still promote this practice? I could see "In an emergency dial 911" followed by "For information or to volunteer call the (non-emergency #)" but that's not what these say.

My question du jour!

[Guest]

i am not sure of this, but could one reason be because of the new phone systems. If you watch the comercials for carriers like Vonage there is a lot of little writing at the bottom. I believe that it states that they do not have a regular 911 sysytem. When you dial 911 with those carriers the call does not go to the local PD/ dispaching center. Couold that be one reason for giving the 7 digit number? I do not know how 911 works for those phones but i have heard it does not work like a traditinal phone system. This might not be the reason for giving the 7 digit but could be a possibility.

[HFD750 6]

All I can say on that is(keep in mind it's just me and things my department goes through) 911 DOES NOT mean your getting the fire department period. Are emergency number is 835-1100 not 911. I understand what your saying,but here in Harrison and yes I'll say it our cops think they can do everything robo COPS they will get a 911 call from a home owner who thinks there house is on fire and police hq will send a sector car to "check and advise" BS, I've heard this all too many times and sometimes I've called 60-control to dispatch my department to the call the cops are going on. Call the fire dept not 911. I'm sorry I feel very strongly about this,it happens all the time. We battle all the time. Gas calls they get through 911 they never call the fire department problem? I think so. Is it being delt with OH YES!! When is it going to stop? When someone(police officer) gets hurt. I hope it never happens. I think I went off on this a bit, But I feel better.

Clarification: In Harrison when you call 911 you get the police not the fire department. Our emergency line goes straight to 60 control. So I'm not saying don't ever call 911 but if your house is on fire or you have a fire related issue you might want to call 835-1100. Medical and other calls yes 911. I think thats it.

Edited April 9, 2007 by HFD750

[emt301 4]

Up here in Dutchess it's about turf. A couple of PD's (to remain un-named) have their 7 digit phone number on the patrol cars in BIG numbers, and then a little "dial 911" on the car as well. These 2 particular departments were against 911 when it was implemented. One of the departments, due to politics and the "old boys club" was allowed to continue self-dispatching...all pd related 911 calls are transfered directly to that PD's dispatcher for service. The other department in question has their units polled for by the 911 police dispatchers, but isn't happy about it and wants the same arrangement that the first department described here has. Fortunately in terms of the fire service & ems, everyone's on the same page and the 911 system works very well (i.e...we generally don't have the "check & advise" problem that sometimes occurs in Westchester).

[mikerabbit 2]

Cell Phones may be the reason, especially when somebody calls from municipalities with multiple post offices.

[mikeinet 37]

a lot of corporate phone systems also require you to dial '9' to get an outside line... so to call 911, you REALLY need to dial '9-911'... something a lot of people dont understand - so in an emergency you dial 911 and get nothing... so if you have a 7 digit# in your head, you KNOW you have to dial 911.

Not an excuse, but just an example

[Oswegowind 17]

i am not sure of this, but could one reason be because of the new phone systems.  If you watch the comercials for carriers like Vonage there is a lot of little writing at the bottom.  I believe that it states that they do not have a regular 911 sysytem.  When you dial 911 with those carriers the call does not go to the local PD/ dispaching center.  Couold that be one reason for giving the 7 digit number?  I do not know how 911 works for those phones but i have heard it does not work like a traditinal phone system.  This might not be the reason for giving the 7 digit but could be a possibility.

←

WRONG! Has nothing to do with Voice Over Internet Protocol (VOIP). Vonage does have an information relay to 911 it is just not as advanced as regular phone and Optimum Voice (or other major cable provider). You have to enter all your own info into your 911 center and that relays to the 911 dispatchers. The only difference is proper spelling and where 911 tells who's district it is, it says verify.

ie:

ESN=000 VOIP versus proper ESN=63x INP

Verify PD Yonkers PD

Verify FD Yonkers FD

Verify AMB Yonkers AMB

All I can say on that is(keep in mind it's just me and things my department goes through) 911 DOES NOT mean your getting the fire department period. Are emergency number is 835-1100 not 911. I understand what your saying,but here in Harrison and yes I'll say it our cops think they can do everything robo COPS they will get a 911 call from a home owner who thinks there house is on fire and police hq will send a sector car to "check and advise" BS, I've heard this all too many times and sometimes I've called  60-control to dispatch my department to the call the cops are going on. Call the fire dept not 911. I'm sorry I feel very strongly about this,it happens all the time. We battle all the time. Gas calls they get through 911 they never call the fire department problem? I think so. Is it being delt with OH YES!! When is it going to stop? When someone(police officer) gets hurt. I hope it never happens. I think I went off on this a bit, But I feel better.

Clarification: In Harrison when you call 911 you get the police not the fire department. Our emergency line goes straight to 60 control. So I'm not saying don't ever call 911 but if your house is on fire or you have a fire related issue you might want to call 835-1100. Medical and other calls yes 911. I think thats it.

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That is the most ridiculous thing in the world. If you were smart you would make it town legislation and a rule for the police to have to put through all requests for fire/ems to the proper dispatchers. Dialing a 7 digit number just to get straight to fire control is not the answer. That gives fire control no more information, especially if the caller has their number blocked and no reverse 911 can be pulled. 911 is there for a reason...EMERGENCIES!!!!! Sometimes people don't have time to speak, but if they call 911 and yell fire...someone will know about it immediately!

Cell Phones may be the reason, especially when somebody calls from municipalities with multiple post offices.

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Once again...please research before posting. Yes 911 does not work with cell phones as 911 does with landline phones. However, technology including tower based triangulation and GPS services allow the 911 call center to come close to locating the person. This again is better than calling the 7 digit number cause most cell phones come up without a name. Cell 911 agencies are able to access that info via passed legislation in which the cell company providing service is able to within minutes process a request for more info...such as where you live. So if you got disconnected on cell 911 someone might still be trying to locate you...if you get cut off on a regular line...most likely we don't even have your number!

a lot of corporate phone systems also require you to dial '9' to get an outside line... so to call 911, you REALLY need to dial '9-911'... something a lot of people dont understand - so in an emergency you dial 911 and get nothing... so if you have a 7 digit# in your head, you KNOW you have to dial 911.

Not an excuse, but just an example

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True, but most places have it set up that if you do dial 911 it goes to the corporate operator and they are able to assist you! How many people know the direct number to the police and fire for where they work????? Come on...most people don't even know the non emergency number to their home town services off the top of their head!!!!

I can understand having the local number on things like chris192 said but much smaller and misdirected from 911! However, on private services, ie Empress it is okay to have your general number because your vehicle is an advertisement. I do believe Empress should have Emergency dial 911 Yonkers-Mt Vernon-Pelham somewhere in plain sight...since that is what they do there.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Oswegowind

[AFS1970 504]

For years and tears (pre 9-1-1) my FD gave out phone stickers with the 7 digit emergency line. When 9-1-1 came to town almost 20 years ago, the phone company gave everyone stickers witht he new number. As recently as 2006 we still got a few fire calls on that old number, which is why we never disconnected it, but we no longer advertise it. Our apparatus has no phone number on it.

I can understand the problem with one agency going first to check and advise, I don't agree with the solution of not utilizing 9-1-1 and the Enhanced information (ALI) that comes with it. I work in a combined dispatch center and all reported Structure fires are routed to both the Police and the Fire Dispatcher. Most Police Dispatchers act like they will explode if they don't start more than 2 cars lights and siren to the scene for whatever reason. This is foolish and ends up hampering the scene. Waiting a bit to send the police in after the FD would probably be a better choice, much like we wait to send the EMS units to assualts until the PD has secured the scene.

And going off on a little tangent here, at least with teh cell providers I have dealt with, you can not easily get the information on a cell phone. You can call their corporate security division, and tell them all the details of your request and they evaluate it they feel you are deserving. If yes, then they fax you a form that you fill out and sign and fax back and they will call you with the info. If no, they will cheerfully tell you to wait until the morning and get a subpoena and sent it to their legal department. I understand that they are protecting their customers, however it is far from easy to get the info in a timely manner.

[JetPhoto 626]

911 was created for a reason! Everyone should use it!

STOP CONFUSING THE PUBLIC! We all know how stupid they are when it comes to an emergency situation!

All counties should step in and lay down the law, a central dispatch is the way to go, ANI/ALI information (as long as its correct - Verizon's responsibility in southern NY) is correct the call can be properly routed to a, b, or c dept.

EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION! More public education and awareness is needed.

There is no reason to have 15 PSAP's in one county, too much duplication of services. Don't tell me "but our local dispatchers know the area better" Yea OK but one center can be like an incident commander at a scene, aware of everything and ready to send more resources as needed. Oh and that local department will be in the loop and still controlling their own units.

[20y2 43]

I know that dialing 911 on a cell phone within any of the south county cities brings a crap shoot with whether or not the state police (Westchester) or NYC 911 will answer. 911 calls from either location can not be directly transferred and you will instead get calls from the SP dispatcher over a regular line or will get a call from the NYC 911 supervisor, again over landline. Sometimes neither party knows exactly where the person is either and is just guessing. 911 is NOT perfect, far from it. ANI/ALI information usually doesn't come up for cell phones either when they do hit the right PSAP, leaving you with a 'NO ANI AVAILABLE' message. I would think that more than 50 percent of calls are over cell phones now so this isn't perfect.

[HFD750 6]

That is the most ridiculous thing in the world.  If you were smart you would make it town legislation and a rule for the police to have to put through all requests for fire/ems to the proper dispatchers.  Dialing a 7 digit number just to get straight to fire control is not the answer.  That gives fire control no more information, especially if the caller has their number blocked and no reverse 911 can be pulled.  911 is there for a reason...EMERGENCIES!!!!!  Sometimes people don't have time to speak, but if they call 911 and yell fire...someone will know about it immediately!

←

Your right it's ridiculous and UNSAFE!! And it's already in the works to try and solve the ego trip some police officers have here. I'm not going to go into all the issues but there real and they will be addressed. I'd like to think I was smart by the way.

[Guest DFFD227]

well on the contrary of things, I would say most calls that come into the Dobbs Ferry dispatch center are mostly from our seven digit number. We do not have this number advertised on any of our police cars, nor do we advertise it as an emergency line. We also have a fire-line. A seven digit number, that again is not advertised as an emergency, but people call it all the time to report fires/odors etc. It's really crazy. Now, I'm not saying our 911 line doesn't see any action, because it certaintly does, but it just shocks me how many people call the seven digit number to report an emergency.

[Guest]

they will get a 911 call from a home owner who thinks there house is on fire and police hq will send a sector car to "check and advise"

HFD...try this...acquire a audio recorder at your HQ that allows you to record both your dispatch channel and the PD channel. It has to be the type that encodes the time. Everytime you have an incident that was "Expanded" due to delayed dispatch, you can appropitely document the disparity between the "Check and advise" and the FD dispatch time. Once the insurance company asks for a copy of the report...it will sort of take care of it self.

Another thing you can do is make good friends with the county/state (Not sure how you do it) arson investigator. Next time there is a problem that he/she will be investigating, have them comindere the time coded recordings from the PD dispatch as part of the investigation. This would also apply to any CAD or MDT logs as well. This will also end up with the insurance company and come back to haunt the dispatch process.

I don't think I have ever seen it documented that a man in a polyester suit with a 10lb extinguisher is the appropiate response for a structure fire.

Edited April 10, 2007 by FFD55

[Guest alsfirefighter]

That's crazy? Welcome to the world of Westchester County. The land of "that won't work here" and "local control."

There isn't a PSAP in Westchester that isn't answered by the PD. For some of us we have talked, complained and b!tched that 911 calls aren't being transferred and it is still a battle today being fought by many local agencies whom utilize 60 control. If I remember correctly there are more than 15 PSAP's in Westchester.

Stop confusing the public? I would love that concept as well, as soon as all fire/ems agencies get dispatched by one single 911 center. Then we can stop confusing the system and actual have a mutual aid plan and system in place that would work and a system where staffed ambulances could be kept tracked of.

Vonage does create some problems, I have been present when those calls come through and the information is not there. Why, because it was not entered.

Try calling 911 from a cell on the 87 corridor and figure out who you are speaking to when they pick up. Someone hit the nail on the head with the cell phone ANI/ALI. More and more people have no regular telephones in their homes, they only use cell phones. The gps isn't as accurate as it should be yet still, and "almost locating" someone vs. knowing what structure can be huge.

The three-digit telephone number "9-1-1" has been designated as the "Universal Emergency Number," for citizens throughout the United States to request emergency assistance. It is intended as a nationwide telephone number and gives the public fast and easy access to a Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP).

In the United States, the first catalyst for a nationwide emergency telephone number was in 1957, when the National Association of Fire Chiefs recommended use of a single number for reporting fires.

In 1967, the President's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice recommended that a "single number should be established" nationwide for reporting emergency situations. The use of different telephone numbers for each type of emergency was determined to be contrary to the purpose of a single, universal number. Other Federal Government Agencies and various governmental officials also supported and encouraged the recommendation. As a result of the immense interest in this issue, the President's Commission on Civil Disorders turned to the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) for a solution.

In November 1967, the FCC met with the American Telephone and Telegraph Company (AT&T) to find a means of establishing a universal emergency number that could be implemented quickly. In 1968, AT&T announced that it would establish the digits 9-1-1 (nine-one-one) as the emergency code throughout the United States.

The code 9-1-1 was chosen because it best fit the needs of all parties involved. First, and most important, it meets public requirements because it is brief, easily remembered, and can be dialed quickly. Second, because it is a unique number, never having been authorized as an office code, area code, or service code, it best meets the long range numbering plans and switching configurations of the telephone industry.

Congress backed AT&T's proposal and passed legislation allowing use of only the numbers 9-1-1 when creating a single emergency calling service, thereby making 9-1-1 a standard emergency number nationwide. A Bell System policy was established to absorb the cost of central office modifications and any additions necessary to accommodate the 9-1-1 code as part of the general rate base. The Enhanced 9-1-1, or E9-1-1, subscriber is responsible for paying network trunking costs according to tariffed rates, and for purchasing answering equipment from the vendor of their choice.

On February 16, 1968, Senator Rankin Fite completed the first 9-1-1 call made in the United States in Haleyville, Alabama. The serving telephone company was then Alabama Telephone Company. This Haleyville 9-1-1 system is still in operation today. On February 22, 1968, Nome, Alaska implemented 9-1-1 service.

In March 1973, the White House's Office of Telecommunications issued a national policy statement which recognized the benefits of 9-1-1, encouraged the nationwide adoption of 9-1-1, and provided for the establishment of a Federal Information Center to assist units of government in planning and implementation. The intense interest in the concept of 9-1-1 can be attributed primarily to the recognition of characteristics of modern society, i.e., increased incidences of crimes, accidents, and medical emergencies, inadequacy of existing emergency reporting methods, and the continued growth and mobility of the population.

In the early 1970s, AT&T began the development of sophisticated features for the 9-1-1 with a pilot program in Alameda County, California. The feature was "selective call routing." This pilot program supported the theory behind the Executive Office of Telecommunication's Policy. By the end of 1976, 9-1-1 was serving about 17% of the population of the United States. In 1979, approximately 26% of the population of the United States had 9-1-1 service, and nine states had enacted 9-1-1 legislation. At this time, 9-1-1 service was growing at the rate of 70 new systems per year. By 1987, those figures had grown to indicate that 50% of the US population had access to 9-1-1 emergency service numbers.

In addition, Canada recognized the advantages of a single emergency number and chose to adopt 9-1-1 rather than use a different means of emergency reporting service, thus unifying the concept and giving 9-1-1 international stature.

At the end of the 20th century, nearly 93% of the population of the United States was covered by some type of 9-1-1 service. Ninety-five percent of that coverage was Enhanced 9-1-1. Approximately 96% of the geographic US is covered by some type of 9-1-1.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The above post by me was from http://www.nena9-1-1.org/. A good 911 site with tons of info and facts about multiple 911 issues and technology.

You can also check out

http://www.911voip.org/ which is now run by nena and was developed by 4 texas 911 agencies about voice over internet.

[Oswegowind 17]

The other problem with VOIP is that I having an OV account can go to my mother's house in North Carolina, log in to the internet and place calls therefrom and my home number will show up on your caller ID! Now just think, lazy old me forgets to log out the connection and something happens, we call 911...and guess who picks up the phone???

PEEKSKILL POLICE cause they are my 911 PSAP...of course I would notice pretty quick cause I pay attention and am trained how to handle calls of this nature...and I think most of my family would also pick up on it cause I have trained them! But Joe Schmo (no offense to him) won't know...they will most likely be in some type of compensation of panic mode...and if the dispatcher does not verify the location, Buchanan PD, Cortlandt VAC, and CRP will show up to my house and have no answer...at which point it may be too late!

All dispatchers should repeat the house address and make sure the caller repeats it once again so there is no discrepancy. And don't think it has not happenned...google it and you will be able to shepardize some legal cases in which it has occurred. As well it has happen to me...short example...female calls 911 hysterical...my 3 year old is missing...I say did he go out the front door onto Fairview st or was he in the yard? She says Fairview St???? We moved 2 years ago. Well where do you live...still in Yonkers? No Greenwich, Connecticut! Oh Shi! All ended well, I grabbed the hotline and aired to Greenwich...they in turn advised they had a 3 yo boy in the station and were looking for his mother. Always be on your toes...use your resources and train everyone according to advancing technologies...Don't get left behind or worse yet SUED!

[HFD750 6]

Just a little FYI it happened today P.D. was sent to a house for an activated fire alarm. 4 minutes went by officer on scene to "check and advise" 2 more minutes go by officer on scene asks if F.D. was notified HQ asks what do you have,officer on scene says the house is filled with smoke no one home. HQ will notify F.D. We get dispatched for smoke in the structure turns out the homeowner left a pot on the stove and went out to the city. Small fire knocked down with a can. I MEAN REALLY WTF!!!! I called the P.D. to ask what was going on they gave me the run around. Time for a board meeting. THIS IS GOING TO STOP!!!! just had to vent.

FFD55... good idea going to look into getting that set up asap. Thank you.

Edited April 11, 2007 by HFD750

[Guest DFFD227]

Just a little FYI it happened today P.D. was sent to a house for an activated fire alarm. 4 minutes went by officer on scene to "check and advise" 2 more minutes go by officer on scene asks if F.D. was notified HQ asks what do you have,officer on scene says the house is filled with smoke no one home. HQ will notify F.D. We get dispatched for smoke in the structure turns out the homeowner left a pot on the stove and went out to the city. Small fire knocked down with a can. I MEAN REALLY WTF!!!! I called the P.D. to ask what was going on they gave me the run around. Time for a board meeting. THIS IS GOING TO STOP!!!! just had to vent.

FFD55... good idea going to look into getting that set up asap. Thank you.

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That is VERY ridiculous! Why cant they just "hit the button"?????

[PC_420 28]

Over hear in Putnam we have all FD/PD/EMS combined communications and all 911 calls go hear. But the FD's do have emergency 7 digit lines that are also routed to go straight to our phone Alarm line as well. So except for people who call Carmel, Kent, the Sheriffs Office, or Sp directly, everything comes to us.

And as for cell 911, it works great here(probably because we are a small county) and the GPS has worked amazing sometimes providing with great information. Only bad thing since we got it is that we get Every 911 call about an accident on 84 when we would just get the initial call from SP.

[Guest]

Over hear in Putnam we have all FD/PD/EMS combined communications and all 911 calls go hear.  But the FD's do have emergency 7 digit lines that are also routed to go straight to our phone Alarm line as well. So except for people who call Carmel, Kent, the Sheriffs Office, or Sp directly, everything comes to us.

And as for cell 911, it works great here(probably because we are a small county) and the GPS has worked amazing sometimes providing with great information. Only bad thing since we got it is that we get Every 911 call about an accident on 84 when we would just get the initial call from SP.

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I'll second that. The system in Putnam is a stellar example of what should be the norm in the NY Metro area. Communication between field units, the 911 center, and police is very smooth. It's nice knowing that if you need extra resources or special units you don't need to call your dispatch who needs to call the county who needs to dispatch the appropriate agency (*cough* Westchester *cough*).