Shooting Inside OLM

[x635 4,066]

Gunman turns weapon on himself inside hospital

How did he get the gun inside?

Eyewitness News

(Wakefield-WABC, June 21, 2007) - An investigation is underway after an emotionally disturbed man was able to sneak a gun into a hospital, and shoot himself. Now that man is on life support.

The incident happened in the psychiatric section of the emergency room at Our Lady of Mercy Hospital on East 233rd Street in the Bronx.

The question is, how did he get the gun inside?

Eyewitness News reporter Phil Lipof is live in Wakefield with the story.

The answer to the question is, he wasn't frisked when he got to the hospital. But it's far more complex than that. Do police have the right to frisk a man who says he's depressed but willing to go to the hospital?

Twenty five-year-old Jason Taylor came by ambulance to Our Lady of Mercy in Bronx, after telling police officers that he had flagged down, that he was depressed.

While people debate that, hospital employees tell Eyewitness News their just glad the guy did not shoot anyone else.

After being seen in triage, he was still complaining about depression so the hospital took him over to the psych section of the emergency room. That's where he pulled a gun out and shot himself in the head.

Hospital security guards were getting ready to frisk Taylor when shot himself, but the question is, should police have frisked him out on the street?

They answered that question by saying, "he didn't seem violent, he didn't seem suicidal, so frisking him right there and then, could have actually violated his civil rights."

"Wow, it's terrible, you know it's very sad to know that someone who was severely depressed made it through officers and through the emergency room, also inside around innocent people...people who were running to help him and no one realized that he was carrying a weapon," said hospital one hospital visitor.

Who is responsible though, for making sure a depressed man doesn't bring a weapon into the hospital?

"I'm just thankful no one else was injured, you know, hopefully with this situation you'll have some new policies enforced," employee Mayra Roman.

The minute Taylor shot himself in the head, he was attended to in the middle of the ER. He was then taken to Jacobi Medical Center where he is on life support.

(Copyright 2007 WABC-TV)

[helicopper 1,050]

Wow, this one ought to keep the lawyers in a feeding frenzy for quite a while!

If he was in fact transported by EMS, there's a crew that should be counting their lucky stars and buying lottery tickets because it could easily have been them.

While the civil libertarians will argue that the police had no right to "search" him, EMS is under no such restriction. I was taught to do a thorough patient assessment on all patients getting in my ambulance and if I came across the gun - well then I'm obligated to report it to the PD. I think some of the contemporary street survival training courses also point out that there is little difference between a patdown for weapons and a secondary assessment for soft tissue or skeletal injury.

Get back to the basics!! SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY

Haven't we all been to enough funerals??

[fac911 33]

Before anyone starts running there mouth on this board about this incident I was there feel free to PM and I will answer ANY questions about the crew ,PD ,& this incident.

[helicopper 1,050]

Before anyone starts running there mouth on this board about this incident I was there feel free to PM and I will answer ANY questions about the crew ,PD ,& this incident.

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Just to clarify my statement - I'm relieved that the ambulance crew that transported THIS individual was not hurt as they easily could have been.

The remainder of my comments deal with the issue of searching ANY patient - not this one in partcular and should NOT be construed as criticism or "running my mouth". There is A LOT that can be learned from this incident by EMS people all over the place. Happily the lessons learned are available with no loss of life (to emergency services personnel) - unlike all the other incidents that have been discussed here recently.

EMS personnel should be talking about this TYPE of incident (not this one specifically) and how to handle it just like police and school folks talk about Columbine/Virginia Tech, fire folks talk about truss roofs, etc.

If we don't have policies on "searching" patients or having patients searched before they get into an ambulance, maybe we should. Maybe there is a gap in the system where training, policies, or other things are needed.

I remember being shown an X-ray in class of a patient with a gun at the small of his back after being immobilized in the field and transported - back in the days of MAST. When EMS stripped him of his clothes, the gun remained under him and when they applied the MAST and longboard, it stayed there only to be found on the X-ray. Good thing it wasn't an MRI, huh?

[irishfire2491 24]

It Just goes to prove that even know you may think the scene is safe things do go wrong when you least expected.

Like a Post not to far back about EMS and Bullet PRooF vest and everyone jumped on the poster about if the scene not safe you should not be there but in this case what do you do ???

The medical emergency you dont always do a full body check!!!

This world today is Crazy and F up and we all just have to watch each others back. Stay safe and never let your Guard down.

[Guest]

Great. Now we start doing physical head to toe exams on psych patients. THAT won't get us into any trouble.

[JJB531 652]

Great. Now we start doing physical head to toe exams on psych patients. THAT won't get us into any trouble.

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Just curious what trouble you expect from performing a thorough physical exam on a patient... even a psych patient. For all they know you could be looking for injuries or injury patterns (i.e. multiple lacerations of varying stages of healing indicative of a person who is a "cutter") that may give you more of an understanding about the patient.

[Goose 188]

Just curious what trouble you expect from performing a thorough physical exam on a patient... even a psych patient.  For all they know you could be looking for injuries or injury patterns (i.e. multiple lacerations of varying stages of healing indicative of a person who is a "cutter") that may give you more of an understanding about the patient.

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Question:

Do you expose and preform a head to toe exam on a apparent non-violent psych reportedly requesting transport for eval?

The point i think Clutch was making is that we aren't police officers. We shouldn't have to frisk or search our patients before letting them on our ambulance. In this day and age doing so could be used against us.

In all honesty, when i'm alone in the back i'm doing everything to avoid conflict with or spark conflict with an EDP. Unless the person is coming in with a definite medical complaint i am not going to push any form of evaluation/treatment on them.

[20y2 43]

It's definitely a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with no clearly defined 'right way' to do things. However at the end of the night YOU are the one that has to go home, so do what you have to do. As a civilian there is no rule that says you can't frisk every EDP that you come in contact with, heck there is no PD rule that says you can't frisk every EDP you come in contact with.

[JJB531 652]

Question:

Do you expose and preform a head to toe exam on a apparent non-violent psych reportedly requesting transport for eval?

The point i think Clutch was making is that we aren't police officers. We shouldn't have to frisk or search our patients before letting them on our ambulance. In this day and age doing so could be used against us.

In all honesty, when i'm alone in the back i'm doing everything to avoid conflict with or spark conflict with an EDP. Unless the person is coming in with a definite medical complaint i am not going to push any form of evaluation/treatment on them.

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I frisk every EDP that I come into contact with... I don't just throw my hands on them and start patting them down though. Typically a good number of EDP's, once you build a rapport with them, will give you permission to perform an exam. I've had few EDP's that don't allow me to perform an exam or frisk them, and those who don't allow it, are typically so out of control they are restrained by PD. You don't have to tell them you are looking for weapons, you can ask for their permission to check them out to make sure they have no injuries. Speaking as a police officer, I don't expose every perp on the street to see if they have a weapon. You don't have to strip someone down to find a gun or a knife on them. Even if you don't do a full head to toe exam, while you are putting the EDP on your stretcher, as you are buckling him/her in, make it a point to inconspicuously contact as much of their waist line with your hand as possible. Trust me, if there's a gun there, you will feel it. Think about where most people carry firearms... in their waist line or pockets.

I don't see how it can be used against you. You are not doing anything illegal.

Remember, and EDP is not just a crazy person who is going to fly off the handle if you look at them the wrong way. An EDP can simply be someone who is just depressed and not violent or a danger to anyone. Building a rapport with them and talking to them like a human will instill their confidence in you.

[nycemt728 49]

I agree w/ 20y2 saying its a tough call, I have been in situations where the rapport is there and others where I wish I could be teching from the front of the bus.

I would tend to agree w/ goose, unless I'm totally confident of that rapport or have two people in the back w/ me, I am really not going to overtly and actively search my pt. Not all people are stupid enough to not realize that the true reason for the PE is not medical but to search. If the guy truly is EDP, that aggravation of an ulterior motive might not help the situation. Take for example the situation from the thread; from the news article, the EDP did not get violent and shoot himself until secuirty was making bones about frisking him...that almost settles my debate right there....I'd prefer not to be the precipitating factor.

[JJB531 652]

I agree w/ 20y2 saying its a tough call, I have been in situations where the rapport is there and others where I wish I could be teching from the front of the bus.

I would tend to agree w/ goose, unless I'm totally confident of that rapport or have two people in the back w/ me, I am really not going to overtly and actively search my pt. Not all people are stupid enough to not realize that the true reason for the PE is not medical but to search. If the guy truly is EDP, that aggravation of an ulterior motive might not help the situation. Take for example the situation from the thread; from the news article, the EDP did not get violent and shoot himself until secuirty was making bones about frisking him...that almost settles my debate right there....I'd prefer not to be the precipitating factor.

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Nowhere in the article does it say that the EDP didn't get violent and shoot himself in the head until security was "making bones" about frisking him.

In the article it says "Hospital security guards were getting ready to frisk Taylor when shot himself, but the question is, should police have frisked him out on the street?"

Sounds more like the hospital is trying to say it is common practice to frisk EDP's so they can CYA to the media..

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

They should harvest his organs

[fac911 33]

They should harvest his organs

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I think they did

[Goose 188]

I just don't see it as our job to frisk patients, its better left up to the police who can intervene if they find something. If i were to find something on a patient i have virtually no ability to diffuse the situation - other than taking an O2 tank to his head. Also, lets not forget that this guy could have been carrying a .22 or another small weapon in his pocket or sock or some other indiscriminate place.

I just hope they crew doesn't face allot of heat from all of this.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Goose

[JJB531 652]

I just don't see it as our job to frisk patients, its better left up to the police who can intervene if they find something. If i were to find something on a patient i have virtually no ability to diffuse the situation - other than taking an O2 tank to his head.  Also, lets not forget that this guy could have been carrying a .22 or another small weapon in his pocket or sock or some other indiscriminate place.

I just hope they crew doesn't face allot of heat from all of this.

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I agree 100% that it is not an EMS providers job to frisk patients and that it is the job of the police... but this is not an issue of job titles or job descriptions... this is an issue of safety and street smarts. If you find something on a patient, your ability to diffuse the situation is pulling that ambulance over, getting the hell out of it, and calling for PD back up. I'd rather find something on someone and get outta the situation then find it when he/she puts a bullet through my chest. Absolutely this individual could have carried his firearm in an indiscriminate place, and I wouldn't necessarily frisk a guy's ankles for weapons, but I typically make it a point to check their waist area/pockets.

Obviously you can request from the PD on scene to do the frisk for you, and I wouldn't necessarily say EMS providers should toss someone without conferring with the on scene PD first.