"Stun Gun" use on combative patient?

[mfkap 0]

How could something like this happen? If a patient needs a collar, I don't think using any sort of stun device on them will be safe. Wouldn't that be the type of patient you would never stun? Have stun devices turned into a first-line option instead of the less-lethal option they were intended for?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/pal...0,4167012.story

[INIT915 1,119]

How could something like this happen? If a patient needs a collar, I don't think using any sort of stun device on them will be safe. Wouldn't that be the type of patient you would never stun? Have stun devices turned into a first-line option instead of the less-lethal option they were intended for?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/pal...0,4167012.story

This article is so poorly written and light on details, it's impossible to determine if the use was justified or not.

[helicopper 1,050]

INIT is right, the article doesn't provide any details but at the point when he started fighting with the EMS crew and deputies he went from a patient to a suspect. What would you prefer; to let him assault the EMS crew?

Don't act so surprised - people do wild and crazy things every day!

As for "first-line" status, Tasers in the rest of the country are an everyday piece of equipment. Rather than put hands on and attempt to "fight" someone, you gain compliance with a Taser. It sure beats a nightstick and is far less deadly than a firearm. Since most cops are not martial-artists, the use of a Taser reduces the likelihood of injury the officer or suspect during a hands-on confrontation.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

How could something like this happen? If a patient needs a collar, I don't think using any sort of stun device on them will be safe. Wouldn't that be the type of patient you would never stun? Have stun devices turned into a first-line option instead of the less-lethal option they were intended for?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/pal...0,4167012.story

What is it that they were exactly intended for?

Besides the fact that the article is very vague and short, we don't know how exactly the device was utilized. Were the electrodes deployed or did they use it in the drive stun mode, which is more pain compliance then when the probes are deployed to cause pain and electro muscular disassociation. As far as what their policy is I don't know..but from all that I've read and researched I haven't seen that one as a contraindication for use.

Chris pointed out how they are much safer to subjects then the other options..including hands on restraint which is extremely dangerous to subject and officer alike. Stats show hands on with prolonged struggle leads to more perp deaths then any in-custody deaths where a TASER was used, which by the way TASER usage has never been attributed to cause of death in such subjects. I agree..if he was ok to fight, he was ok to be subdued.

Edited June 14, 2008 by alsfirefighter

[mfkap 0]

There is a little more info here, at http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/pal...0,2762218.story . He was a big guy, and being combative. My point remains, you have a possibly postictal patient with a possibly compromised c-spine... unless this guy was shooting at you, I cannot see the safety in using anything that causes further involuntary muscle spasms. Physical restraint would be safer for the patient than inducing muscle spasms. Lets say he was grabbing at the collar and trying to grab or push the EMS crew, or even took a swing at an officer from his seated position in the car. Take a few steps back and let him work his way out of his postictal state. Give him room. But using any sort of stun device could cause further injury, especially in a patient with "serious injuries" as the article describes.

Another thinking point, what if you are the EMS crew and the police are trying to hurt your patient? In the hypothetical world, what if you are at this call as an EMT. The patient is postictal from a witnessed clonic-tonic seizure. The patient is trying to push you away, and you take a few steps back for your safety. What if the officer pulls out his taser? Your duty is first to the patient, and the police officers actions could be harming your patient, who possibly has no control of his actions at this point. What is your role as a medical provider?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Your duty is first to the patient, and the police officers actions could be harming your patient, who possibly has no control of his actions at this point. What is your role as a medical provider?

Actually, I beg to differ. Your first duty is your OWN SAFETY!

What are the first 2 things hammered in to you during your EMT class???

BSI & Scene Safety

We have to ensure our own safety first. What good are you to a patient when you yourself are hurt or incapacitated??

[mfkap 0]

Chris pointed out how they are much safer to subjects then the other options..including hands on restraint which is extremely dangerous to subject and officer alike. Stats show hands on with prolonged struggle leads to more perp deaths then any in-custody deaths where a TASER was used, which by the way TASER usage has never been attributed to cause of death in such subjects. I agree..if he was ok to fight, he was ok to be subdued.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/n...730taser30.html

And Taser just lost a $6 million judgement

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_9514402

And don't forget that the UN considers the use of the Taser to be torture

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/stor...from=public_rss

And while I can agree with Taser that it is usually non-lethal to a normal, healthy male, I saw a report or two where the police actually got involved with someone who was less-than-healthy, maybe even on drugs or "crazy". And as for the prolonged struggle argument, I don't think that a scrawny 18 year old "don't tase me bro" kid was going to take a half-hour for 3 police officers to subdue. I myself am a big fan of the Tasers and think they are a great tool, I just see so many reports where the person was Tased 10 seconds after the first warning from a police officer.

[INIT915 1,119]

There is a little more info here, at http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/pal...0,2762218.story . He was a big guy, and being combative. My point remains, you have a possibly postictal patient with a possibly compromised c-spine... unless this guy was shooting at you, I cannot see the safety in using anything that causes further involuntary muscle spasms. Physical restraint would be safer for the patient than inducing muscle spasms. Lets say he was grabbing at the collar and trying to grab or push the EMS crew, or even took a swing at an officer from his seated position in the car. Take a few steps back and let him work his way out of his postictal state. Give him room. But using any sort of stun device could cause further injury, especially in a patient with "serious injuries" as the article describes.

Another thinking point, what if you are the EMS crew and the police are trying to hurt your patient? In the hypothetical world, what if you are at this call as an EMT. The patient is postictal from a witnessed clonic-tonic seizure. The patient is trying to push you away, and you take a few steps back for your safety. What if the officer pulls out his taser? Your duty is first to the patient, and the police officers actions could be harming your patient, who possibly has no control of his actions at this point. What is your role as a medical provider?

This longer article adds little new, pertinant information, other than the guys size. And that particular information only lends credibilty to the argument that he could have been a serious threat to EMS and PD's safety. Not that small guys and girls can't cause trouble, but add in this patient's size...

As the other posters said, your safety is number one.

[INIT915 1,119]

And while I can agree with Taser that it is usually non-lethal to a normal, healthy male, I saw a report or two where the police actually got involved with someone who was less-than-healthy, maybe even on drugs or "crazy". And as for the prolonged struggle argument, I don't think that a scrawny 18 year old "don't tase me bro" kid was going to take a half-hour for 3 police officers to subdue. I myself am a big fan of the Tasers and think they are a great tool, I just see so many reports where the person was Tased 10 seconds after the first warning from a police officer.

A 10-second warning? How long should a cop wait after providing fair warning? An hour, two maybe. Ten seconds is plenty of time to either submit or decide as a perp that you want to take this to the next level.

I'm tired of hearing about any deaths that resulted from a Taser. The article you referenced also cited Meth intox and long term drug use. This meant, with out a Taser, the cops have to wrestle hand to hand with this IV drug abuser, who, until proven otherwise have Hep C and HIV. There is a reason every single TASER lawsuit ever filed has ultimately been dismissed, as this one will too.

Think of this. With the Taser option, how many other perps would have been shot, as that was the next viable option in the use of force continuum? Say out of 1000 shocks, one guys dies. Tragic, sure, I suppose. But without Tasers, PD might have had to shoot literally hundreds of those 1000, causing significantly more deaths.

[ny10570 745]

step in and inform the cop about whats going on. I've found that officers are generally very willing to defer to our judgment when dealing with medical patients. Assuming the officers were within their training it implies that the pt couldn't be safely physically restrained. If he can fight that hard then he isn't so badly hurt where I would be concerned with any risks a taser might present.

[helicopper 1,050]

He was a big guy, and being combative. My point remains, you have a possibly postictal patient with a possibly compromised c-spine... unless this guy was shooting at you, I cannot see the safety in using anything that causes further involuntary muscle spasms. Physical restraint would be safer for the patient than inducing muscle spasms. Lets say he was grabbing at the collar and trying to grab or push the EMS crew, or even took a swing at an officer from his seated position in the car. Take a few steps back and let him work his way out of his postictal state. Give him room. But using any sort of stun device could cause further injury, especially in a patient with "serious injuries" as the article describes.

Another thinking point, what if you are the EMS crew and the police are trying to hurt your patient? In the hypothetical world, what if you are at this call as an EMT. The patient is postictal from a witnessed clonic-tonic seizure. The patient is trying to push you away, and you take a few steps back for your safety. What if the officer pulls out his taser? Your duty is first to the patient, and the police officers actions could be harming your patient, who possibly has no control of his actions at this point. What is your role as a medical provider?

And while I can agree with Taser that it is usually non-lethal to a normal, healthy male, I saw a report or two where the police actually got involved with someone who was less-than-healthy, maybe even on drugs or "crazy". And as for the prolonged struggle argument, I don't think that a scrawny 18 year old "don't tase me bro" kid was going to take a half-hour for 3 police officers to subdue. I myself am a big fan of the Tasers and think they are a great tool, I just see so many reports where the person was Tased 10 seconds after the first warning from a police officer.

I've seen six officers fight with a senior citizen - and two of them got hurt - just trying to get her handcuffed (that's right her). That scrawny 18 year old could be tripping on drugs, could be an EDP or could be a student of martial arts. Do you judge a book by it's cover? I hope not. Is that fire not going to kill you because it's in an apartment not a wood frame dwelling? Anyone can kill you - you don't take anything for granted!

"Unless he was shooting at you"? With all due respect, if someone is shooting, nobody is using a Taser! Deadly physical force will be met with deadly physical force.

You're drawing a lot of conclusions from an article that is awfully short on facts! We don't know how combative he was, we don't know whether or not EMS tried to let him work through a post-ictal state (if that's what it actually was), we don't know if any of the EMS providers requested the PD intervention.

As for the officer "trying to hurt your patient", I hope that this question is just because you're experienced or naive. The police don't do "harm" to people - they protect people (sometimes from themselves, most times from others!). Once a patient becomes assaultive or combative he is a suspect - stay out of the PD's way and let them do their jobs. It might be your a** they're saving! As for this call from the article, you're assuming that he was still post-ictal, we have no way of knowing that for sure.

Anytime I dealt with a post-ictal seizure patient their aggression was usually uncoordinated and not focused at me or anyone else. If this "patient" was attempting to strike the EMS crew or police and actively resisting, it may not have been his seizures! We simply don't know from the article. If it is the first example, you can tell the cops what's going on so they don't think you're being assaulted.

I strongly recommend that you spend some time talking to veteran EMS providers and police officers to gain a better understanding of the relationships and duties/responsibilities. Statements like "the officer was trying to hurt my patient" are inflammatory and may not truly reflect the circumstances.

[mfkap 0]

I strongly recommend that you spend some time talking to veteran EMS providers and police officers to gain a better understanding of the relationships and duties/responsibilities. Statements like "the officer was trying to hurt my patient" are inflammatory and may not truly reflect the circumstances.

The "trying" to hurt your patient was a poor choice of words, and was somewhat clarified later in the paragraph. I meant their actions they were trying could hurt the patient, but not in any way their intent. I have been in emergency services for a few years, and between my work in Westchester and the City I have a pretty good understanding of what both the EMS side and the Police side have to deal with. This was never intended to become an anti-taser post, or to state for a fact that the officers in Florida did the wrong thing. It was more about having to treat a medical case different than another police call, since this had both the potential of a postictal state or even postictal psychosis, and the added risk of a possible c-spine injury, combined with the muscle spasms that are caused by a taser. I understand that as a police officer you sometimes don't have time to go through that entire checklist before you have to take action, but isn't that the point of discussing it here? So you can do the thinking before game-time?

Here is an update on the story. The guy who got tased was a physician, Dr. Mark Holder. And, according to the PD accounting of events, it seems like it was necessary and appropriate.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/con...rail.html?imw=Y

Edited June 15, 2008 by mfkap

[Guest alsfirefighter]

You'll have to pardon me if I don't shed a tear for an individual who expired the day after he was taken into custody with the use of a TASER, all while acting aggressively and under the influence of methamphetamine and with an enlarged heart. I think that is another example of a BS lawsuit. I have to also throw in that the UN considers TASER's as a torture device....give me a break, they are a spineless, unorganized grabbed a** organization that lives on our own good will, and with highly cluster fucks of operations when not in command by U.S., British or Australian commanders.

Again, if an officer deems it necessary to deploy his device upon a subject I am not one to get into a discussion at that point. I can also say that the primary PD agency in my district we have a fantastic relationship with and have the ability to discuss options when the situation allows.

I do agree with you mfkap in one regard you do have the responsibility to be the advocate for your patient, in the case even with very little additional info, he still could have been a threat to the crew and himself post-ictal or not. I still would opt to have used the TASER then hands on restraint. Much can go wrong in that matter again for both parties and the bigger and longer the struggle the greater the risk for restraint asphyxia.

[FFD941 20]

Hmmm... Possible career ending injury from a pt or GOING HOME and the pt still goes to the hospital???

I know what I'd do

[mfkap 0]

Hmmm... Possible career ending injury from a pt or GOING HOME and the pt still goes to the hospital???

I know what I'd do

With that logic, you must push fat people down the stairs so you don't hurt yourself carrying them. I mean, they are going to the hospital anyway...

[helicopper 1,050]

With that logic, you must push fat people down the stairs so you don't hurt yourself carrying them. I mean, they are going to the hospital anyway...

mfkap, you really need to lighten up a bit. The point is we don't get paid to get hurt! We do get paid to carry heavy people and deal with all kinds of other nonsense but when someone gets combative the situation changes! Would you prefer that PD allowed a combative patient/suspect to beat the crap out of the EMS crew rather than run the risk of hurting him? That's what we're talking about - if a civilian gets hurt so we can protect ourselves and/or our brothers and sisters in the other services that's the stark reality of the job. Nobody wants to do it but that's the result.

[JJB531 652]

How could something like this happen? If a patient needs a collar, I don't think using any sort of stun device on them will be safe. Wouldn't that be the type of patient you would never stun? Have stun devices turned into a first-line option instead of the less-lethal option they were intended for?

More liberal anti-police nonsense invading the internet from someone who has no idea what it's like working in Law Enforcement... amazes me how so many people who are not police officers are experts on the way the LEO's should handle situations....

You know what, maybe all police officers should go to the Steven Seagal School of Law Enforcement, so we can all be 8th degree black belts, catch bullets with our teeth, shoot a gun out of the hands of a perp from 300 yards out with a single shot from our handgun while executed a beautifully choreographed triple lindy, and disarm 50 men all armed with sticks, clubs, bats, knives, machine guns, and bazookas without ever having to put down our cup of coffee...

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

More liberal anti-police nonsense invading the internet from someone who has no idea what it's like working in Law Enforcement... amazes me how so many people who are not police officers are experts on the way the LEO's should handle situations....

You know what, maybe all police officers should go to the Steven Seagal School of Law Enforcement, so we can all be 8th degree black belts, catch bullets with our teeth, shoot a gun out of the hands of a perp from 300 yards out with a single shot from our handgun while executed a beautifully choreographed triple lindy, and disarm 50 men all armed with sticks, clubs, bats, knives, machine guns, and bazookas without ever having to put down our cup of coffee...

JJB can you let me know when this class starts? Thanks. LIBERALS SUCK

[ny10570 745]

You know what, maybe all police officers should go to the Steven Seagal School of Law Enforcement, so we can all be 8th degree black belts, catch bullets with our teeth, shoot a gun out of the hands of a perp from 300 yards out with a single shot from our handgun while executed a beautifully choreographed triple lindy, and disarm 50 men all armed with sticks, clubs, bats, knives, machine guns, and bazookas without ever having to put down our cup of coffee...

Use the force JJB, use the force.

[Guest EFFP411]

We had an auto accident on 52 one night, apparently the male passenger was fighting with the female driver, (his girlfriend), and grabbed the steering wheel and slammed the car into a pole. during the extrication process to get him out of the car, he starting fighting with the medic, and swung at him because they wouldnt let him light a cigarette. The officer warned him numerous times to knock it off, or he was going to get a zap, and when he swung again, he got ZAPPED. It was for our personal safety, which as you know, comes first....

[xfirefighter484x 234]

We had an auto accident on 52 one night, apparently the male passenger was fighting with the female driver, (his girlfriend), and grabbed the steering wheel and slammed the car into a pole. during the extrication process to get him out of the car, he starting fighting with the medic, and swung at him because they wouldnt let him light a cigarette. The officer warned him numerous times to knock it off, or he was going to get a zap, and when he swung again, he got ZAPPED. It was for our personal safety, which as you know, comes first....

If memory serves me correctly, didn't he get zapped at least twice?

[FFD941 20]

With that logic, you must push fat people down the stairs so you don't hurt yourself carrying them. I mean, they are going to the hospital anyway...

And with that logic I hope that you can make it to retirement without you yourself ending up in the bed

[Guest alsfirefighter]

More liberal anti-police nonsense invading the internet from someone who has no idea what it's like working in Law Enforcement... amazes me how so many people who are not police officers are experts on the way the LEO's should handle situations....

You know what, maybe all police officers should go to the Steven Seagal School of Law Enforcement, so we can all be 8th degree black belts, catch bullets with our teeth, shoot a gun out of the hands of a perp from 300 yards out with a single shot from our handgun while executed a beautifully choreographed triple lindy, and disarm 50 men all armed with sticks, clubs, bats, knives, machine guns, and bazookas without ever having to put down our cup of coffee...

LOL. But bro I thought we agreed that for the street smarts class we were going to develop together, it was going to use Seagal, Detectives' Riggs and McClain, Jackie Chan and Jet Li as role models and techniques.

JJB can you let me know when this class starts? Thanks. LIBERALS SUCK

LOL. Remember my fantasy baseball ID One Eye....Everyliberalmust...

Liberals...fighting for the rights of Criminals, druggies and non-citizens for decades!

I mean seriously man..even star trek set their phasers to stun sometimes.

With that logic, you must push fat people down the stairs so you don't hurt yourself carrying them. I mean, they are going to the hospital anyway...

Nice stretch...sorry if I didn't get the full dramatic effect of your comment. So what does that mean...you care so much you give them twinkies to help them with their hunger? Or do you wrap the hands of assaultive patients before you do circles with them in an apartment or street to get them to calm down?

So with your logic...you put yourself at risk, other crew members, possibily the law enforcement officers present, the patient by allowing him/her to put themselves at grave risk by either wandering around in an uncontrolled state, the street around other people, or to have to be fought with by the police to get into custody and to further waste additional time on scene.

[mfkap 0]

Nice stretch...sorry if I didn't get the full dramatic effect of your comment. So what does that mean...you care so much you give them twinkies to help them with their hunger? Or do you wrap the hands of assaultive patients before you do circles with them in an apartment or street to get them to calm down?

Usually I don't have twinkies, but I never get my lunch cause I always give it to a patient. And if I didn't wrap their hands before fighting, they might hurt their hand on my face!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Usually I don't have twinkies, but I never get my lunch cause I always give it to a patient. And if I didn't wrap their hands before fighting, they might hurt their hand on my face!

LOL. Finally got you to lighten up...and that was a funny a** reply brother...thanks for the giggle...I'm having one hell of day and needed that.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

While I do believe the Taser is a justified use-of-force and can be a very helpful tool for officers to have on their belts, it seems to me that more and more officers are relying on the Taser instead of other tactics such as hand to hand or nightstick, and as a result, when officers are forced to go hand-to-hand, they are caught off guard and often injured. Believe me, this is in no way intended to be a knock on any member of law enforcement, but I have witnessed such an instance firsthand and heard of several others when the Taser was used in a situation where another method would have been significantly more effective (such as the pursuit of a known drug suspect, where the officer drew his taser instead of his firearm, and the suspect became combative and went for the officer's firearm.) I think that new technology is great, but it must be balanced in with everything else in an officer's repetoir instead of being the primary means of restraining a combative suspect, especially given its reduced effectiveness on suspects with low body fat.

[JJB531 652]

While I do believe the Taser is a justified use-of-force and can be a very helpful tool for officers to have on their belts, it seems to me that more and more officers are relying on the Taser instead of other tactics such as hand to hand or nightstick, and as a result, when officers are forced to go hand-to-hand, they are caught off guard and often injured. Believe me, this is in no way intended to be a knock on any member of law enforcement, but I have witnessed such an instance firsthand and heard of several others when the Taser was used in a situation where another method would have been significantly more effective (such as the pursuit of a known drug suspect, where the officer drew his taser instead of his firearm, and the suspect became combative and went for the officer's firearm.) I think that new technology is great, but it must be balanced in with everything else in an officer's repetoir instead of being the primary means of restraining a combative suspect, especially given its reduced effectiveness on suspects with low body fat.

The taser is a preferred method of less lethal compliance as compared to hand-to-hand combat or the use of a nightstick. Let's face it, no matter how good you are with your hands, no matter how many years of martial arts you have under your 4th degree black belt, no matter how much you can bench press, there's always someone out there who can kick the ever living crap out of you. They don't necessarily have to be bigger than you, and sometimes an unassuming individual can be the one who delivers a beating you didn't expect. Rather than go hand-to-hand with an individual and risk significant injury, not only to yourself, but also to the perp, it's considerably more desirable to utilize the taser if you have acccess to it in order to gain compliance. Perhaps there are individuals out there who can withstand the taser, I don't know, I've never seen it. But if someone can withstand the taser, I definetly wouldn't want to go hand-to-hand with them. Despite all of the negative press the taser gets, most deaths associated with the use of the taser are typically a result of excited delerium and significant drug use by the individual prior to the taser being deployed by a LEO. If a LEO wants to keep up on their hand-to-hand fighting skills, take a martial art or boxing 2 or 3 days a week.

Pulling out your gun on a fleeing drug suspect won't do a thing, but the Taser will. If the fleeing drug suspect isn't armed, and is simply fleeing, no LEO is going to shoot them to stop them from fleeing, that goes against the use of deadly physical force as outlined in the Criminal Procedure Law. Pulling your firearm on a fleeing suspect is good because if they are armed and present a weapon at a LEO, the LEO is prepared to match that threat with his/her own firearm. It may also serve as a bluff, and maybe ther perp will think twice about continuing to flee once they realize they're staring down the barrel of a .40 cal... but street smart perps know a police officer won't shoot them if they're simply standing there unarmed. Several times I've had perps tell me, "go ahead, shoot me", because they simply know that I won't because I have no justification to. Instead of wailing on the guy with my fists or clubbing them with a nightstick, it's considerably easier to gain compliance with a 5 second burst of 50,000 volts of fun. Using an impact weapon or your fists to gain compliance from a perp typically results in visible physical injuries... whether it be lacerations, swelling, contusions, broken bones, etc.... whereas most taser deployments result in two small marks if they taser barbs are deployed, and no other physical injuries.