Arrival Photos - Working Fire Ossining 9-15-08

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Upon Arrival Photos DC50

Date: Sept. 15, 2008

Time: 15:30 hrs

Location: 13 Aqueduct Street , Ossining NY

Engine 96, 99. Ladder 42 working.

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Photos DC50

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Lines Stretched , charged , crew forced entry.

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[xchief2x 79]

ANother outstanding job by our brothers from OFD!!

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Photos DC50

[Guest]

Where are the ground ladders? I hope someone here who knows can tell us that they were up and windows were vented. A top floor job like this, was the roof vented? Seems like it may have been, or was the ladder just set up and nothing further? Before someone says monday morning quarterbacking, these are legitmate questions. These pictures show very little and before everyone begins with the patting of the backs, it would be nice to know if they are deserved.

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Ossining NY - Washington Truck 42 Roof work

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[JFLYNN 681]

Just curious...was the person taking the pics an active member of the Ossining FD?

[FirNaTine 370]

Where are the ground ladders? I hope someone here who knows can tell us that they were up and windows were vented. A top floor job like this, was the roof vented? Seems like it may have been, or was the ladder just set up and nothing further? Before someone says monday morning quarterbacking, these are legitmate questions. These pictures show very little and before everyone begins with the patting of the backs, it would be nice to know if they are deserved.

Maybe we should start by asking how many guys showed up on the initial alarm. Hell I've seen Career Depts. not do any of the aforementioned tactics you're questioning and that's after 15-20 minutes on scene, not within the first 5 mintes. It looks to me they did a pretty dam good job with what they had, especially during that time of day and probably a scarce crew.

[JTF429 37]

Anytime a department limits the damage to the fire area and sends everyone home they did a good job. With that being said I would like to comment on the last two replies. Lets not turn this into an argument but look at the point NYfire was trying to make about ground ladders and ventilation. Two vey important jobs on the fire ground. Lets forget for a moment that this is OFD at the fire and it is just department XYZ. It should be a top priority to have ground ladders in place for egress. How many pictures of fire scenes do we see where this is not the case. How many firefighters does it take to put 24 or 28 into operation? Two at the most one if the train with ladders more than once a year. Man power is always a problem during the daytime.

I hate to bring this up but lets take a look at the departments in the metro DC area. I worked down there for 8 1/2 years and was also an Instructor. If you are the driver it is part of your job to put ladders into operation by yourself with the exception of a 35. Recently the was post on hear commenting on Kentland company 33. Forget all the BS and take a look at the ladder work that goes on when they arrive. Take a moment to view those videos on the battalion. They have there faults but they treat it real all the time and you will always see ladders up. Take a look at the photos that are posted on here from the Hyattsville fire and look at the truck work that goes on. You don't see it around here or even in CT.

One problem is leadership in our departments. After a check out on a duty night take some members outside and throw some ladders or cut up some pallets. If you do it all the time it will be seconded nature.

Again this is not ment to knock OFD. I wasn't there and I don't know anything about your department so please don't take it that way. I am just trying to start a disscussion on ground ladders. Lets try to get a good topic going on this. JK :angry:

[Guest]

....So when a brother needs to bail out and he has to jump because no ladders were put up, it will be ok because it was a career dept. or because it was a volly dept. during the day with minimal manpower? Those don't seem like acceptable excuses to me. Yes the fire was put out, but that will provide little solice when a brother is injured or worse.

[ajsbear 11]

Many of the departments have gotten away from laddering a building. When I first got into the fire service the first thing I was shown was ladders and how to ladder a building. This was before my Essentials class.

I've been down and seen Kentland work in person. 1 person can put up a 24' ladder. If manpower is limited after the MPO gets whatever line into operation he can put up a ladder. We've gotten away from this basic operation. The building should have ground ladders before the FASTeam shows up.

Edited September 16, 2008 by ajsbear

[xchief2x 79]

Our FAS team policy (Croton) is if the building is not laddered on our arrival we will ladder the building before we even start our 360 walk around, and yes we have been criticized for doing this but I tell the team the old credo "we mock what we don't understand." Our team philosophy is we are the ultimate safety officer. So at this call we would have laddered the building however as we were arriving the fire was declared K/D.

[FirNaTine 370]

Nobody is debating that ladders should not be thrown but if you're working with a skeleton crew one of the most important tasks to complete first is get that initial attack line in place as fast as possible and charged, not to mention forcing entry for the line. A properly positioned and charged handline will and has saved more lives, then any ground ladder(s). Put the fire out as fast as possible and for the most part you won't ever have to use those ground ladders. Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't be thrown but there are times, it's just not possible to do immediately, unless there is an immediate life hazard. Maybe somebody from OFD that was actually there initially can comment.

[xchief2x 79]

I agree with you, strecthing that intial line and makign sure there is no one trapped takes precedence and I was not there initially, I was there a short while into it and it was just steam coming from that window.

[firecapt32 282]

Heres a comment that might bring more discuession to the table on this subject. Some departments work in companies and not so much as a department, having said that, if firefighters are arriving and, are reproting to their companies( Engines-ladder-fire patrol) things can and often do slide between the cracks. like laddering the building- if the ladder company is short handed and its it possible, then laddering the building falls to the engine firefighters. If they are busy stretching lines and that is extreamly possible then laddering falls futher behind. We somtimes forget that its the departmental functions that count and not the individual activities of any one company.

I will also comment on seeing full ppe on all that I saw in the pictures. Most of all everyone went home

[JFLYNN 681]

Where are the ground ladders? I hope someone here who knows can tell us that they were up and windows were vented. A top floor job like this, was the roof vented? Seems like it may have been, or was the ladder just set up and nothing further? Before someone says monday morning quarterbacking, these are legitmate questions. These pictures show very little and before everyone begins with the patting of the backs, it would be nice to know if they are deserved.

Brother, I get your point but this really does seem like a veiled criticism to me...so I must leap to the defense of Chief Connolly and the members of my hometown department (no, I'm not a member)...you're right when you say "these pictures show very little"...we can always find something in every picture of fireground ops to criticize, but I don't think it's productive to do so in this case...

However, what I really am curious about is who took these pictures? If it was an active member of the OFD, then someone seems to have his priorities all wrong.

[ny10570 745]

How do people feel about laddering the building before cutting the roof? This type of structure can be effectively ventilated using horizontal ventilation. After all, had it been a 4 story building with fire on the 3rd floor holes in the roof aren't much help. Personally with limited manpower I'd rather see ground ladders up, windows being taken, search, and then skylights.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Okay, Okay, Okay!

Though you all have a valid point no matter what side of the fence you stand on, I have to stop this right now. If we are going to have another discussion about throwing ladders, which there is already a topic that has been discussed in great length in another forum about aggressive laddering of a building, then start a separate topic about it.

Pictures were provided to us to show an incident and if we were to pick out every thing done wrong, then we will have another 100+ post about menusha and finger pointing. Same with worrying about who took the pictures, which is the least thing we all should be worried about in my opinion. And yes by asking a simple question, some people will turn this into a Monday Night Quarterbacking session by some.

I'm not going to start a <blank>ing match here nor close the topic and one more thing -------QTIP!