FDMV - Working Fire

[doug_e 0]

Date: 1/11/05

Time: 0902

Location: Mt. Vernon Box 1232 - 109 S First Ave. X E Second St.

Frequency: 154.145 (FDMV) 46.26 (Mutual Aid)

UNITS:

FDMV - E2, 3, 4, 5, 6 - L2, 3 - R1 - B4

EFD E31

PFD E5

PMFD TL31

Description:

3 Story, Frame, 25X40, OMD

0904 - Units on Scene - Report Heavy Smoke

0905 - 2nd Alarm

0908 - 3rd Alarm

0945 - PWH

1001 - UC

Heavy Fire 2nd, 3rd fl. One civilian injury.

[hudson144 150]

Good to see that the mutual aid depts called in "overtime" to cover the city of mt vernon!

[jps385 0]

Just a question, what type of staffing does eastchester have?

[Pudge3311 5]

jps,

Eastechester has 2 men per rig, total of four engines, two ladders, and captains car.

Total per tour 14.

Depending on Vacations and injuries, the number can get as high as 17-18, and drop as low as 13 I believe, with one engine riding 1 down.

[jps385 0]

Thanks pudge

Do they get volleys out also?

[doug_e 0]

They are the only department that doesn't use WCDES numbering convention. Maybe we should use their county numbers for IA listing...

E 201 thru 207 (Spare)

L 61 thru 63 although L1 is a Tower

R 2

This way FDMV E5(205) won't be confused with PFD E5(5)...etc.

Thoughts? ](*,)

[Pudge3311 5]

JPS,

They are a combination department, althought the volunteers rarely go to any type of alarm unless it comes in as a possible structure. They have been retoned for manpower to stand by during bad weather incidents and used more in a fire police manor.

Every once in awhile depending on which deputy chief has the car, you will hear 2104 sign on and respond on an alarm, but mostly they only come out for workers.

[doug_e 0]

While discussing this offline it was uncovered that FDMV L1 (a tower ladder) didn't have a WC designator as such. One was chosen - TL16 is now assigned to FDMV Ladder 1.

[Shantz02 0]

Who assigned this designation to MVFD? You cant take it upon yourself and whoever you talk to offline to renumber apparatus . If there were to be special numbers, they would have been set up by the moderators.

If you were to look at the complete listing of apparatus, you would clearly see that Westchester County Ladders 61-63 are assigned to Mt Vernon. It is also clearly stated that L-61 is a SPARE. It does not matter that it happens to be a tower ladder at this time because it is only in service when one of the other two are out of service. And who is to say that MVFD might not turn around tomorrow and have a straight stick ladder truck as the spare? If you look, L-63 (MVFD TL3) is noted to be a tower ladder.

The same holds true for Yonkers. They are strictly Ladders with side notes on the WC Apparatus page as to which ones are Tower ladders. It has been discussed on other threads that the county should do away with the seperate Ladder and Tower Ladder designations, so i will not get into that.

Here is the link to the WC Apparatus page incase anyone wishes to check it out:

http://www.westchestergov.com/emergserv/ap...tus/APP2004.pdf

(doug_e if you happened to have made a typo, just let me know and i will gladly edit or modify my post as needed)

[Shantz02 0]

Also, the simple way to not confuse MVFD E5 with PFD E5 is to use the department abbreviations before the apparatus. This practice occurs more times than not when there are units that have the same number but are from different departments. It should stay that way.

OK, now after ive said all that, i would like to add that i think it would be great to refer to MVFD units by their county numbers. I think most people are used to just putting MV E4, MV L2, etc though so it might take a little getting used to.

[doug_e 0]

PDT_Armataz_50 Is it safe to come up?

Let's take it from the top - It is FDMV and has never been MVFD. Only here...

I'm just relaying information. Don't act on it. Sit back, take a deep breath and when the DES updates the apparatus designators for 2005 check the Tower Ladder Section to see if FDMV has TL16 assigned to it. Right now it's reserved.

As to whether there should be differing designators for arial types I could be convinced that there shouldn't be. However, at present, there is.

As for the FDMV apparatus designations here on EMTBRAVO all I'm saying is that we're looking at incidents from a Countywide perspective and the FDMV numbering scheme is from Mt. Vernon's perspective.

PDT_Armataz_23 I'll be in my foxhole if you need me.

[Shantz02 0]

Ok, understood. But why would they give FDMV a Tower ladder designation for a spare piece of apparatus? If it were in service still, then i would fully agree with it being designated based on what it actually is. I think they should just leave it as L-61 that way all the ladder numbers for the city of Mt Vernon are sequentially ordered.

(its always safe to come up when i post doug. didnt mean to be so harsh)

[doug_e 0]

I asked them if they had a TL designation for L1 and they realized that they didn't and decided to ask for one. And to have some consistency they settled on 16 as the opposite of 61. They still retain 61 as reserved.

Stay low.....

[Shantz02 0]

Sounds good to me.

I'd like to see the day though where Mt. Vernon has 4 ladder trucks and they are all in service or 3 in service with 1 spare (yeah, very doubtful, but one can always hope for increased staffing and some more units cant they? 8) )

[RES20CUE 40]

I don't think 60 is going to issue TL-16 to the FDMV, due to the fact that L-16 is Eastchester, and since the consolidation of the numbers, the County has not issued the same Ladder and Tower Ladder designation.

The "Reserved" is to let dept's know that they can not have that number.

My personal opinion is that it doesn't make a difference, a Ladder is a Ladder is a Ladder (this discussion was held before on this network), neighboring dept's and 60 Control should know what kind of Ladder each designation is. The IC should specifiy what kind of Ladder they need for Mutual Aid.

Anyway this is the same county that has Ladder 1 in Fairview, that is a Tower and Tower Ladder 1 in Thornwood that is also a Tower Ladder, so who knows what they would do!!!! I think the county should revoke all the Ladder and TL designations and start over again- using just Ladder designations!

[firemn23 8]

When you have a big scene (like Yonkers Oak street fire) you might not know what the next departments ladder is, but it could all be fixed by saying send me the next closest tower ladder. If we dissolved the name Quint then why not dissolve the Tower Ladder. Res20cue is right a ladder is a ladder is a ladder.

Also I believe the reason Fairview wont change thier number is because they want the ladder 1.

The county theory seems to be "Its not whats best for all of us but whats best for me "

[hudson144 150]

here is the problem with the 3rd truck-forget about the 4th because you won't see it happen! If FDMV puts the 3rd truck back in service then that means at any working fire there will be 3 less firefighters at the fire scene,in other words just to save face they will not send the 3rd truck to the fire so they can keep mutual aid out of the city and the issue would not be in their face whenever there is a fire. when there is a fire in MV everyone needs to be there! They can't worry about the next alarm, you can only do so much with a skeleton crew!

[doug_e 0]

Lively discussion here....

As I say about alot of things I see in emergency services:

"100 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress"

I believe that from an ICS (IMS) perspective it would be helpful knowing what types of apparatus you have at a scene by their designators. I like the Rockland/Putnam style of designation but would expand on it.

Department ID followed by apparatus type.

100 series for cars and utilities

200 series for pumpers

300 series for Ladders

Assigning numbers this way allows for unlimited growth, even for the largest department. I don't think even Yonkers will grow to 99 Engines, etc.

An interesting way to set up department designators is to assign lowest to highest from left to right, south to north:

1 = Yonkers

2 = Mt.V

3 = Pelham

4 = PManor

5 = NR

And so on left to right up the county so that if you know there are 58 departments in the county and you hear a working fire in department 36 you know immediately that the department is roughly in the mid to upper county.

Example:

If you have a dual response Millwood and BM on the Taconic it might be deparments 25 and 26 rather than department 6 and 25.

Geographically rather than alphabetically which indicates the approximate location of the department and that they are neighboring departments.

The department designation number is arbitrary and therefore should/could mean something (other than alphabetically), as it does with the apparatus. If you develop a system that everyone must re-learn, then, why not make it as comprehensive as possible.

You could get sick with it and go as far as dividing to apparatus classification to reveal more information such as:

201 - 209 = Pumpers with less than 500 gallons on board

210 - 219 = Pumpers with 500 to 1000 gallons

220 - 229 = Pumpers with 1000 to 2000 gallons

230 - 239 = CAFS

250 - 259 = Tankers < 3000 gallons

260 - 269 = Tankers > 3000 gal.

301 - 309 = Straight sticks < 100'

310 - 319 = Straight sticks > 100'

320 - 329 = TL's < 100'

330 - 339 = TL's > 100'

340 - 349 = Quints . . .

501 - 509 = Rescues

510 - 519 = Heavy Rescues

520 - 529 = ReHab Units

75% of the time the information wouldn't be necessary. But if it helps dispatchers, IC's, officers, members, and buffs keep order and glean as much info as possible, quickly, then it's worth the effort.

[doug_e 0]

It's a shame what's going on in MV. A department with a rich and proud history that's been decimated by special interests and polititians.

[doug_e 0]

I noticed on a different thread that Putnam numbers

Dep't - Type - Sequence (11-1-1 = Brewester Chief)

[afd65 4]

Doug_e quote 75% of the time the information wouldn't be necessary. But if it helps dispatchers, IC's, officers, members, and buffs keep order and glean as much info as possible, quickly, then it's worth the effort

i don't think they care about buffs whenthey are making this system. i think it is a good idea that they should do something like that but not based on that it would be easier for buffs to figure it all out. also they should just have it based on if it is a truck engine tanker rescue car and that is it

[doug_e 0]

The buff comment was a gag. By buff I was really pointing to anyone else listening who knew the designations.

As for the differentiation, you can never have too much information. Especially if it can be communicated in a clear concise manner. If you need it it's there.

As an IC if I called for a stick and a tower ladder for an operation I would like to be able to easily determine where I would place the rig without having to see it. If the designators differentiated the apparatus I could tell what was coming my way as it was inbound and could clear the way for proper placement upon arrival and not have to wait for it to be on scene to know what to do next. Without having to memorize every rig number from surrounding departments beforehand.

DC

[Guest]

FIREMN23 SAID

Also I believe the reason Fairview wont change thier number is because they want the ladder 1.

The county theory seems to be "Its not whats best for all of us but whats best for me "

FYI FAIRVIEW HAS HAD LADDER 1 SINCE SOMETIME IN THE EARLY 1970'S- AND I DON'T MEAN THE ACTUAL VEHICLE, SO IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY HAVE A BUCKET OR STICK. SOME OF THE GUYS ON THIS FORUM SHOULD RESEACH THINGS BEFORE THEY SPEAK. :-k [-( THE COUNTY OR WHO EVER LET THORNWOOD GO TO TOWER LADDER 1 DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE.

[HFD23 37]

"Its not whats best for all of us but whats best for me "

THE COUNTY OR WHO EVER LET THORNWOOD GO TO TOWER LADDER 1 DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE. "

OK i don't totally agree with the statements here, the given system we use in the county is tower ladders and sticks, and in the case of Fairview the had ladder 1 a stick, and thornwood has tower ladder 1, now i think that because FFD went with a tower and Thornwood has tower ladder 1 already FFd should be given a new number, back in 1994 when Hartsdale went from ladders 46 and 47 straight sticks to a Tower ladder we switched to TL-15 and now they county knows when we are requested m/a to white plains they are getting a tower ladder, we didn't keep calling it 47 truck because that was the number we wanted to keep we were given a tower ladder designation. just like every one should, if 60 changes the designations and no longer wants to show a difference between tower and stick fine, but that's not how its set up now and i am not saying i agree with the different designations but i feel we have a system and yes it needs reform, but the bottom line is we can;t have what we want as individuals and thus we need to go by the county's system until it is changed.

even further more Ladder 47 was reassigned to North white plains, it was kinda sad to see the number go, but we went by the system.

And i totally agree that we should redo the county by the department numbering system just like prince George County, MD, example station 33 has Chief 33a and 33 B, engine 331, 332, 333, 334, tower 33 and mini pumper 33. theirs no reason our county can;t go to this system. we can defiantly add Tanker 33, squad 33 medic 33, ambulance 33 and so on...

[GFD70 4]

Don't get too caught up in numbers and designations. 99.99% of departments have already preplanned what apparatus they will get for M/A. Mosty departments know in advance what they will get if they call for a second alarm or any addiational alarms. All departments should know what resources their neighbors have available to send if needed.

[Guest]

dutchess and columbia ctys use the numbering process. it seems to work. 8) 8)

[firemn23 8]

Just to add now. There will be two tower ladder 1 Hawthorne and Mount Vernon in the county and one ladder 1 that is a tower ladder Fairview.

[Shantz02 0]

There will not be two tower ladder 1 designations made by the county. Mount vernon does their own thing with numbering their apparatus within the city. Outside of the city however, they use the County designations. So if they are replacing the old Tower ladder 1 (Ladder 61 according to County designation) then the new unit will most likely take over the county 'ladder 61' designation (but be called tower ladder 1 by Mount Vernon dispatch while it is in that city).

[HFD23 37]

There will not be two tower ladder 1 designations made by the county. Mount vernon does their own thing with numbering their apparatus within the city. Outside of the city however, they use the County designations. So if they are replacing the old Tower ladder 1 (Ladder 61 according to County designation) then the new unit will most likely take over the county 'ladder 61' designation (but be called tower ladder 1 by Mount Vernon dispatch while it is in that city).

This is deffinatly true, and i don;t think there is a problem with that as long as they switch to county numbering when going m/a also they must be carefull when they have both ladder 1's working in the city of mt Vernon... that x-mas eve job saw both ladder 1's in the city at the job. just something to keep in mind

i think its very confusing with Fairviews ladder 1 and thornwood

TL-1 and the county has a sytem that is to designate between ladders and towers and thus we should us it not pick and choose when we want to, i am not sayin an particular dept or perosn is wrong, i just think we needa stick with the book and cut donw the confussion caz with the new tower ladder craze we could end up with all these departments wanting to keep their numbers of their old sticks even though they got towers and thats fine but then the county needs to change its system

[Guest]

THE MAIN REASON WE HAVE APPARATUS NUMBER PROBLEMS IN THIS COUNTY , TOO MANY BUFFS!!!! THIS COUNTY HAS HAD LADDER TRUCKS WITH BUCKETS FOR YEARS AND THEY WEREN'T CALLED TOWER LADDERS, THEY SIMPLY WERE LADDER WHATEVER # BUT NOW YOU LISTEN TO THE RADIO AND ITS LADDER WHATEVER # OR TOWER LADDER # OR TRUCK # . NOW I'M JUST QUESSING HERE BUT DO MOST OF THESE FIRE DEPTS. REALLY NEED TOWER LADDERS (BUCKETS) OR ARE THEY JUST PARADE WAGONS.

SO IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHAT TYPE OF APPARATUS A DEPT GETS IT SHOULD KEEP IT ORIGINAL LADDER #, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU GAVE UP YOU TOWER FOR A STICK CHANGE THE # AGAIN. -o #-o