60 Control and EMS dispatching

[Guest WCDES636]

I wish Croton was still dispatched by thier PD. That 2083 guy won't shut up on the radio!

[NYMedic37 22]

I have not made any negative comments toward your agency. I can not say the same for you. I asked one question only. Please answer it and we'll go on from there.

To answer your question, it doesn't matter if 60 control has the best dispatch center in the world. The existing system for dispatching Tarrytown Fire and EMS by Tarrytown PD is fine and works very well. Again, I feel that there is no need to involve another step to the dispatch process as this creates an unnecessary delay. What are you trying to do here? Invent a rounder wheel? I'm not trying to upset anyone here on EMTBravo but I'm entitled to my own opinion after reading everyone's response to this topic and my opinion is that when Tarrytown PD dispatchs for local village calls, everything works smoothly and when we get dispatched to Thruway or Tappan Zee Bridge calls thru 60 control, the dispatch information is not consistantly accurate.

[x648eng119 2]

- when an agency approaches county control and shows interest in wanting to be dispatched by them what exactly goes on? Does 60 simply adopt the system that they are using or is a system/protocol developed with some of the old and some of the new (60 control providing the new)?

This is the only part of your question I can answer... (AND DON'T QUOTE ME 100% ON THIS...)

From memory, the agency has numerous meetings with DES Administration and the officers from the Communications division. They go over what the county has to offer, and what the agency is looking for and work out any issues that may arise. For example, when Croton switched, the PD was worried that they wouldn't get notified of the alarms if it didn't go through them first. Problem solved by putting a pager/claxton at the PD desk, and enabling the PD nextel with the i-page system.

The department also has to submit alarm assignments to the CAD division. They set up the different response areas of the district, ie: if certain areas require tankers or dual responses.

They also have to make sure they have primary and backup radio frequencies set up, in case towers go down.

After everything is all set up with that, then the dispatchers get new policies and procedures for the department, and the date and times that it goes into effect.

Perhaps one of my former co-workers, or someone who has gone through the experience can fill in any gaps.

[Guest WCDES636]

To answer your question, it doesn't matter if 60 control has the best dispatch center in the world. The existing system for dispatching Tarrytown Fire and EMS by Tarrytown PD is fine and works very well. Again, I feel that there is no need to involve another step to the dispatch process as this creates an unnecessary delay. What are you trying to do here? Invent a rounder wheel? I'm not trying to upset anyone here on EMTBravo but I'm entitled to my own opinion after reading everyone's response to this topic and my opinion is that when Tarrytown PD dispatchs for local village calls, everything works smoothly and when we get dispatched to Thruway or Tappan Zee Bridge calls thru 60 control, the dispatch information is not consistantly accurate.

Do you even read what you write? You are the only one who is throwing sh*t. No one has stated 60 Control is the only way. Nobody has made any negative comments toward your agency or how they are dispatched. Obviously you have issues. Of all the agencies that 60 Control dispatches, you sir are the only one who seems to have a problem. Again.... anytime you would like to come and see what and how we do our jobs, you are more than welcome. But until you know for youself how we operate. You should keep your uneducated opinions to yourself.

[x648eng119 2]

everything works smoothly and when we get dispatched to Thruway or Tappan Zee Bridge calls thru 60 control, the dispatch information is not consistantly accurate.

I understand your point, and again, nothing against Tarrytown. But on 60 Control's defense, as I stated in big bold letters, the info that is put out on the air, is only as good as the info that the dispatchers get. I believe Remember585 stated that if the Thruway called Tarrytown directly instead of the County, you're still getting the same info, so the call is going to get dispatched the same way. They are only operating as a relay between agencies. And it's not just frustrating for the units responding. I can't tell you how many times I've cursed out (TO MYSELF) the Thruway or the TMC for giving us inaccurate info... but again, it's whatever they received from the callers. And lets face it, half the motorists out there are so used to driving their normal routines, and when something happens, they have no idea where the hell they are.

Not trying to change your opinion, just offering you a perspective from the other side of the radio.

[NYMedic37 22]

Do you even read what you write? You are the only one who is throwing sh*t. No one has stated 60 Control is the only way. Nobody has made any negative comments toward your agency or how they are dispatched. Obviously you have issues. Of all the agencies that 60 Control dispatches, you sir are the only one who seems to have a problem. Again.... anytime you would like to come and see what and how we do our jobs, you are more than welcome. But until you know for youself how we operate. You should keep your uneducated opinions to yourself.

First of all, I am not "throwing (expletive)" as you mentioned. I am simply expressing my opinion which is what this site is all about and which I am entitled to. You are entitled not to agree with me. That is your right. As far as my opinion as being "uneducated", well, that is your opinion. I feel that my opinion is very well educated because I have experienced both the Tarrytown PD and 60 control dispatch for several years (about 21 years) and have come to my own conclusions about both. EMTBravo is about people exchanging ideas and opinions and sometimes people disagree. There's nothing wrong with that. We all don't have to follow each other around like a herd of sheep.

[firecapt32 282]

We move froward into the new century new ideas, new developments, new radio systems, new everything, new fire apparatus hmm T town has a few of those . Just because it isn't broke doesn't mean you cant and shouldn't upgrade.

there's nothing wrong with 1 1/2 lines but we moved to 1 3/4 we found it gave us better water at the fire. Don't stand still the world will pass you by.

You keep referring to the thruway so i am generalizing that there is a problem there, I am sure it could be worked out or is there a deeper problem that we are unaware of. ??

the Tarryown system is ok --not sure if its the be all end all of telecommunications.

just another opinion here on EMT Bravo where we can agree to disagree and still get along.

[NYMedic37 22]

We move froward into the new century new ideas, new developments, new radio systems, new everything, new fire apparatus hmm T town has a few of those . Just because it isn't broke doesn't mean you cant and shouldn't upgrade.

there's nothing wrong with 1 1/2 lines but we moved to 1 3/4 we found it gave us better water at the fire. Don't stand still the world will pass you by.

You keep referring to the thruway so i am generalizing that there is a problem there, I am sure it could be worked out or is there a deeper problem that we are unaware of. ??

the Tarryown system is ok --not sure if its the be all end all of telecommunications.

just another opinion here on EMT Bravo where we can agree to disagree and still get along.

Tarrytown PD just got a new stationhouse and Motorola was there installing thier new communications system so it has been recently upgraded. All has been working fine.

[x648eng119 2]

Again, not trying to start, or throw, and S---, but have you experienced 60 control dispatching as an agency that has been set up for full time dispatch?

I've worked under 4 agencies dispatched by 60 control. New Rochelle EMS (Transcare), Croton Fire, Croton EMS, and Montrose VA Fire.

I've also worked under 5 agencies dispatched by police dispatchers. White Plains EMS (again Transcare), Croton Fire and EMS (pre-60 control), Mamaroneck EMS, and Harrison EMS.

I mean no disrespect to the police officers or dispatchers from any of these agencies, and you may consider my opinion biased because I used to work there myself, but i always felt that the dispatches from 60 control were more thorough, generally better information was given (nature of call or location), and the dispatch is usually worded better with less unnecessary info or words being used. You may wonder what I mean by that.

Here's a hypothetical dispatch that I can pick apart and reword into something "better":

XYZ Police to XYZ ambulance, you are requested to respond to 123 Main St, cross streets of 1st St and 2nd St. for a 78 year old male experiencing chest pain at that location.

REWORDED: 60 Control to XYZ Ambulance, 123 Main St, between 1st st and 2nd st, 78 year old male chest pain.

Reasoning: "requested to respond" - unnecessary because would you really be calling them out if they were'nt requested to respond.

"Experiencing Chest Pain" - obviously he's experiencing it if he called 911.

"At that location" - I think that one speaks for itself.... same thing with "at this time"

Not saying all PD dispatchers do this, but it's another thing that 60 control dispatchers are trained not to do... I think that's the big thing that it comes down to... TRAINING!

[NYMedic37 22]

Again, not trying to start, or throw, and S---, but have you experienced 60 control dispatching as an agency that has been set up for full time dispatch?

I've worked under 4 agencies dispatched by 60 control. New Rochelle EMS (Transcare), Croton Fire, Croton EMS, and Montrose VA Fire.

I've also worked under 5 agencies dispatched by police dispatchers. White Plains EMS (again Transcare), Croton Fire and EMS (pre-60 control), Mamaroneck EMS, and Harrison EMS.

I mean no disrespect to the police officers or dispatchers from any of these agencies, and you may consider my opinion biased because I used to work there myself, but i always felt that the dispatches from 60 control were more thorough, generally better information was given (nature of call or location), and the dispatch is usually worded better with less unnecessary info or words being used. You may wonder what I mean by that.

Here's a hypothetical dispatch that I can pick apart and reword into something "better":

XYZ Police to XYZ ambulance, you are requested to respond to 123 Main St, cross streets of 1st St and 2nd St. for a 78 year old male experiencing chest pain at that location.

REWORDED: 60 Control to XYZ Ambulance, 123 Main St, between 1st st and 2nd st, 78 year old male chest pain.

Reasoning: "requested to respond" - unnecessary because would you really be calling them out if they were'nt requested to respond.

"Experiencing Chest Pain" - obviously he's experiencing it if he called 911.

"At that location" - I think that one speaks for itself.... same thing with "at this time"

Not saying all PD dispatchers do this, but it's another thing that 60 control dispatchers are trained not to do... I think that's the big thing that it comes down to... TRAINING!

I respect your opinion but disagree. In Tarrytown, I don't feel there is a need to change the dispatch process. From my perspective, Tarrytown PD dispatchs EMS quickly and accurately. The BLS ambulance and Paramedic get the address & nature of the call accurately and effeciently. There is no problem here to fix.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I respect your opinion but disagree. In Tarrytown, I don't feel there is a need to change the dispatch process. From my perspective, Tarrytown PD dispatchs EMS quickly and accurately. The BLS ambulance and Paramedic get the address & nature of the call accurately and effeciently. There is no problem here to fix.

So what about the ability to provide callers with pre arrival instructions? What if that could improve the service by getting bystander CPR accomplished or stem bleeding or assist a choking victim? Also what about the mutual aid game. It has always been my experience in any system I've worked in where PD disptached that mutual aid was a nightmare. While its great you seem to think there is no problem to fix, you're the one who seemed to throw out there that PD dispatching was the right way to go when it goes against every conceivable 911 system operation.

[x648eng119 2]

I gotta agree with ALS on both points. The EMD is such a valuable asset. Especially with the importance of early CPR in cardiac arrest cases.

Mutual Aid, again, the county has preprogrammed into the CAD at the click of a mouse 1st, 2nd, 3rd due, etc for everywhere in the county. Both ALS and BLS services.

Like firecapt32 said, nothing may be wrong with your dispatch in T-town. But an "upgrade" may make things better... It may not...

Not for nothin though, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but my true belief is to move forward in emergency services, you gotta have an open mind.

[NYMedic37 22]

So what about the ability to provide callers with pre arrival instructions? What if that could improve the service by getting bystander CPR accomplished or stem bleeding or assist a choking victim? Also what about the mutual aid game. It has always been my experience in any system I've worked in where PD disptached that mutual aid was a nightmare. While its great you seem to think there is no problem to fix, you're the one who seemed to throw out there that PD dispatching was the right way to go when it goes against every conceivable 911 system operation.

EMD can be taught to the cops dispatching. You don't have to have 60 take over because of that. Also, mutual aid thru the police has never been a problem. Calls north of Benedict Ave M/A to Sleepy Hollow EMS, calls south of Benedict Ave M/A to Irvington EMS. Kinda' a no brainer.

[x648eng119 2]

1. CAN be taught... how many actually have it though

2. What happens when you have an overturned school bus and you need 12 ambulances. County is going to get involved anyway. It's easier if they're at it from the get-go.

[OoO 24]

Coming from an EMS agency with PD dispatch, I wish we used 60 control.

One huge advantage I would see to this is the ability to adapt a CAD. With a CAD we would have the call location right in front of us and could avoid calls to the PD for a repeat of the address. Also a CAD would display our various times (on scene, enroute, etc) so we wouldn't be guessing on our PCRs.

I also think the EMD dispatching is important, giving a caller CPR instructions could be the difference between life or death. I know PD could be adapt EMD dispatching, but I know mine would not be willing to increase their work load.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I am not EMD certified but I bet ya I can talk somebody through and EMERGENCY on the PHONE. I have done it many times. Not speaking for other PO's though. I have/had lots of EMS experience. Although you follow the flip charts when EMDing, I never have. COMMON SENSE. STEP 1-STEP INFINITY. The problem is COPS don't want to EMD. They don't even want to be on the desk. So why teach someone something that they no they are going to hate?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

EMD can be taught to the cops dispatching. You don't have to have 60 take over because of that. Also, mutual aid thru the police has never been a problem. Calls north of Benedict Ave M/A to Sleepy Hollow EMS, calls south of Benedict Ave M/A to Irvington EMS. Kinda' a no brainer.

My point isn't that the PD isn't able to handle the dispatching or calling for mutual aid. Coordination of mutual aid in the county is ridiculous because there isn't one entity that handles the dispatching and/or coordination of it. Its a no brainer until I'm the ALS unit sitting there with little to no knowledge of what is going on or have to wait for info because my dispatch has to call another dispatch to get the info. And if the M/A agency doesn't get out...just keep it rolling on down the line.

ONE EYE:

You know I'm with you brother. But how efficient is it if one or 2 people are on the desk and one is trying to give instructions? If your bye yourself what do you do...put them on hold when another 911 call comes in? Also I know your experience brother and I'm sure you can. But I also have seen this done and not to the degree which it entails or the liability of not following a credentialed EMD system and be certified and trained in it. I had a PO on the desk tell a guy having chest pain to take an aspirin if he had it. First the issue wasn't cardiac it was muscular and he was spasming like a champ and was well outside his scope of practice for that PD's dispatch. He is a great experienced nurse but needed to transfer the call to my dispatch which he didn't.

[Guest WCDES636]

I say let the PD's Dispatch. Less for me to do.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

My point isn't that the PD isn't able to handle the dispatching or calling for mutual aid. Coordination of mutual aid in the county is ridiculous because there isn't one entity that handles the dispatching and/or coordination of it. Its a no brainer until I'm the ALS unit sitting there with little to no knowledge of what is going on or have to wait for info because my dispatch has to call another dispatch to get the info. And if the M/A agency doesn't get out...just keep it rolling on down the line.

ONE EYE:

You know I'm with you brother. But how efficient is it if one or 2 people are on the desk and one is trying to give instructions? If your bye yourself what do you do...put them on hold when another 911 call comes in? Also I know your experience brother and I'm sure you can. But I also have seen this done and not to the degree which it entails or the liability of not following a credentialed EMD system and be certified and trained in it. I had a PO on the desk tell a guy having chest pain to take an aspirin if he had it. First the issue wasn't cardiac it was muscular and he was spasming like a champ and was well outside his scope of practice for that PD's dispatch. He is a great experienced nurse but needed to transfer the call to my dispatch which he didn't.

That's my point. If I am alone how can you expect me to EMD or IMPROVISE EMD? I can't just let other lines ring can I? If 60 handled those types of calls they have other co-workers that can handle other calls.

636, 60 should hire more people. I have to say at work I don't listen to you guys unless I have too. You know why? You sound awfuly busy all the time. What is a few more VAC's/FD's to dispatch? LOL

[helicopper 1,050]

That's my point. If I am alone how can you expect me to EMD or IMPROVISE EMD? I can't just let other lines ring can I? If 60 handled those types of calls they have other co-workers that can handle other calls.

636, 60 should hire more people. I have to say at work I don't listen to you guys unless I have too. You know why? You sound awfuly busy all the time. What is a few more VAC's/FD's to dispatch? LOL

"Improvising" puts an enormous liability on both you and your agency. There is no good samaritan protection when you're performing skills for which you are not trained and for which there is a national standard especially when operating as part of an emergency service agency.

[mod hat on/]

Enough with the back and forth about Tarrytown. Nobody anywhere in this thread suggested that Tarrytown change who dispatches it's fire/EMS and that concept seems to have stolen this thread. Comments were made about 60-Control, varying opinions discussed, and generally we've agreed to disagree. So, the horse is dead - stop beating it!

Also, be mindful that profanity on this site is prohibited and using $$ or ** to change letters to get past the filters is also a violation. Let's try to keep it professional and discuss things without personal attacks or agency bashing.

Thanks!

[mod hat off/]

[Goose 188]

So would anyone mind referring to my second series of questions? The first (about how one converts to 60 Control) was answered (very well by the way).

The second question is about the County trunked system. I was under the impression this was built for MCI/disasters and to better coordinate mutual aid. Oddly enough, it seems to have become a primary communication tool with 60 Control. Not a bad thing - i mean, after all, they answer me when i call them - but i recall reading about capacity issues before the system took off. So, my thought is that it wasn't designed to be used as a primary communication tool - or am i wrong? If I'm not what is the county looking to expand the system or adapt another system ontop of it for primary communication?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Sorry goose, I think that question is best answered by someone from county control being they know the intended and current uses of it. That's why I haven't commented on that end. I do not know of any EMS agency that has purchased and issued trunking portables to their members. I was under the impression myself (and again this is my impression, I am not implying anything towards my brothers and sisters at county control) that the Trunk system was designed with the intention of getting more and more off the low band system for dispatch and unit traffic. The system has numerous channel abilities for the coordination of mutual aid and incident operations.

Told ya I was on your side (as usual) one eye. What made ya think different?

Chris...excellent points bro. And I can say I'm bad with the profanity now and then but when something is (4 letter word that is slang for intercourse) its (4 letter word that is slang for intercourse with "ed" at the end) up. So I use it for impact more then anything. I will for now on try to make better use of politically correct words to supplment that. So for instance instead of the westchester 911 system being "&*)&ed" up. The westchester 911 system is assinine and completely backwards.

[Goose 188]

I hear what your saying ALS, it may be something no one can speak of. Either way its cool. I just rarely speak with county control so i had a few questions i wanted to see if i couldn't get answered. Either way, glad that we have 60 and it's nice to see that more and more agencies are moving over to them. Maybe someday soon we will have central dispatching like our northern neighbors.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

"Improvising" puts an enormous liability on both you and your agency. There is no good samaritan protection when you're performing skills for which you are not trained and for which there is a national standard especially when operating as part of an emergency service agency.

[mod hat on/]

Enough with the back and forth about Tarrytown. Nobody anywhere in this thread suggested that Tarrytown change who dispatches it's fire/EMS and that concept seems to have stolen this thread. Comments were made about 60-Control, varying opinions discussed, and generally we've agreed to disagree. So, the horse is dead - stop beating it!

Also, be mindful that profanity on this site is prohibited and using $$ or ** to change letters to get past the filters is also a violation. Let's try to keep it professional and discuss things without personal attacks or agency bashing.

Thanks!

[mod hat off/]

Chris not sure how long ago you had the desk or if you even had to take the desk. But lets just say you answer the phone and it is a medical call. Are you not going to try your best to give instructions to the person on the phone? That is what I meant by IMROVISE EMD. I don't have the flip chart in front of me but ANY HELP I CAN GIVE IS BETTER THAN WHAT IS BEING DONE WHILE EMS IS ENROUTE right?

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris not sure how long ago you had the desk or if you even had to take the desk. But lets just say you answer the phone and it is a medical call. Are you not going to try your best to give instructions to the person on the phone? That is what I meant by IMROVISE EMD. I don't have the flip chart in front of me but ANY HELP I CAN GIVE IS BETTER THAN WHAT IS BEING DONE WHILE EMS IS ENROUTE right?

I had the desk entirely too often before I wrangled my way off of it. If I received a medical call that warranted pre-arrival instructions I forwarded to 60-Control. I'm not an EMD, our department is not EMD, and I wasn't willing to speculate on the right instructions. You and I have the same medical training unrelated to the PD and I still wouldn't be willing to do it. I would imagine that you could just hit the right button to forward the call to 60 where they can EMD it for you, right? As a one man band, I don't know how you'd be able to dispatch three services, give pre-arrival instructions, and answer all the other radio calls/phones even on a good day anyway.

If all goes well I imagine that the "any help I can give" would be better than none at all but in the event of a negative outcome I think the liability would be significant.

Do what ya gotta do, my friend, just CYA!!!!

[Guest]

A few points come to mind as I have been reading this discussion.

I have been doing 911 Dispatch for 20 years and can count on one hand the times I have received accurate MM and direction for a NYS Thruway job.

A PO can be trained to do EMD but it is a skill that requires practice. Just like a medic needs to do a certain number of tubes to keep current, an EMD that doesn't train and use the cards on a daily basis will choke when the pressure is on. Any agency that has an EMD program should be doing QAQI, call audits, weekly/monthly training (to include annual CPR) and all of the associated documentation. This is a tremendous amount of work that needs full time attention. The average village PD Department is not prepared for the dedication a true EMD program requires.

On the subject of someone with an EMS background giving off the cuff instructions to a caller, the industry and courts are clear. If you make a mistake, you are DONE! Both Power Phone and Medical Priority tell trainees to "stick to the cards" Medical Priority goes even further, and demands you read the card VERBATIM! All it would take is for a family member of a deceased patient to sue your agency for malpractice and the vics attorney to play the tape of you winging instructions and they will win a BOAT LOAD OF MONEY. Not to say your medical knowledge is 100% in the street, but trying to translate that knowledge to a hysterical mother with a dying baby is entirely different.

[Guest]

Another thought, once you start EMD, you can not terminate that call untill some trained to the same medical level arrives on scene. If somthing should go wrong after you hang up, the industry considers this patient abandonment. I am not talking about a cut finger, but any lefe threatening emergency, requires an EMD to saty with the caller. And PD does not count (if they arrive first) as medically trained if they are just CPR/first responder. Chris, you're the exception.

[Remember585 815]

So would anyone mind referring to my second series of questions? The first (about how one converts to 60 Control) was answered (very well by the way).

The second question is about the County trunked system. I was under the impression this was built for MCI/disasters and to better coordinate mutual aid. Oddly enough, it seems to have become a primary communication tool with 60 Control. Not a bad thing - i mean, after all, they answer me when i call them - but i recall reading about capacity issues before the system took off. So, my thought is that it wasn't designed to be used as a primary communication tool - or am i wrong? If I'm not what is the county looking to expand the system or adapt another system ontop of it for primary communication?

Goose,

Hopefully I can shed some light on the trunk radio system for you. For the record, none of this is "official info" and is only my interpretation of such.

The system was developed to create a radio "network" to give the 3 branches of emergency services (FD, PD & EMS) some kind of a system to talk to one another. Someone must of realized that if they threw in the Bee-line buses, they could get funding to get the system off the ground. The grand scheme of things as I recall reading over the years it was developed was to create a radio system that can be utilized during disasters so that everyone can talk to each other and better coordinate (yeah right) evacuations and such.

My take on it now is that so much money was put in to it, that just having it for "disasters" was money poorly spent. Not to mention the lack of use makes it hard to know how well it actually works. Slowly, FD and EMS agencies have started to take advantage of it, freeing up 46.26 and making Mutual Aid incidents so much more easy to manage. When I first started at 60 Control, we would be dealing with a structure fire in one part of the county and kind of have it under control (radio-wise), but you would see another incident come up and then it was too difficult to manage things. Not to mention when Mother Nature shows up and kicks our butts, trying to dispatch AND communicate on 46.26 literally became impossible, especially when units are using repeaters which in some cases, drowned out our attempt to send tones. Now, we can direct units to their talkgroups or other alternate trunk talkgroups and get a better hold on communications in the overloaded system we've had in Westchester for too long.

As far as maxing out the system, I have heard that it is possible, but have not seen nor been a part of it, so it may just be rumor.

Hope that helps.

[NYMedic37 22]

Has anyone inquired if the local municipalities thruout Westchester want to give up dispatching Fire and EMS to another, larger agency?