Town Of Greenburgh To Study Consolidation Of Fire Districts (Fairview, Greenville, Hartsdale)

[x635 4,066]

From the Greenburgh Town Supervisor's Email List.

An article in the Journal News indicated that the New York State Legislature will approve this summer a proposed law to provide citizens with the ability to put proposals on the ballot to consolidate governments if they get signatures of 10% of voters or 5,000 whichever is less. The proposal was initiated by Attorney General Andrew Cuomo and will give voters the ability to consolidate local special districts and fire districts. This initiative could result in reducing the escalating property tax hikes by making government more efficient.

Over the years a number of taxpayers have suggested that the 3 paid fire districts in Greenburgh be consolidated. A few months ago I asked Police Chief John Kapica and Edye McCarthy, town assessor to provide a report on financing of the 3 paid districts in Greenburgh. That report will be released shortly. It does not make any recommendations but could lead to a discussion and study and eventual taxpayer savings. If you would like a copy of the report once it is released please advise by e mailing me at pfeiner@greenburghny.com. The fire districts are independent of the town government.

PAUL FEINER

[mstrang1 213]

Didn't they do this study like 5 times already? Or is it just discussed every 2 years or so, and nothing happens?

[IzzyEng4 427]

It will take longer than anyone anticipates. Look what is going on in West Haven CT with the proposal. A lot of changes still have to occur such as giving the town the power to create a fire department and adding it to its charter as such or event to combine three fire districts into one fire district.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Haha, Izzy, don't even get me STARTED on the West Haven consolidation issue. That is a land-mine issue to discuss around town. But the charter revisions on the city's part are almost done, then the districts get to sit down and talk it out for a bit. Alot of financial/logistical stuff that would need to get worked out, the operations would probably not change much.

[dc2t 80]

Here he goes again another study. This supervisor always looks for headlines what happened to the previous study he commissioned? Just another day of confusion from the supervisor.

[firecapt32 282]

This topic has been beat and beat and beat---No Chief in the Greenburgh willbe relinguishing their bugles any time soon to a consolidiation movement thats for sure, nor will any of the Fire Commissioners.

The Greenville(Edgemont) area residents would rather leave the Town of Greenburgh the consolidiate anything--fire--school ect.

I sat on a consolidiation committee for almost 3 years --nothing happened NOTHING. They didnt understand 2%monies--nor did they understand Fire Protection money, they thought that you could just absorb the contracts into one big one. Nothing came out of the meeting.

The kingdome of Greenburgh is safe for a long time or at least until the public get outraged but things.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Do the three districts share a union? In West Haven they do, which might make it easier to consolidate.

[x635 4,066]

indicated that the New York State Legislature will approve this summer a proposed law to provide citizens with the ability to put proposals on the ballot to consolidate governments if they get signatures of 10% of voters or 5,000 whichever is less. The proposal was initiated by Attorney General Andrew Cuomo and will give voters the ability to consolidate local special districts and fire districts.

The above is why there is a new study being done.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This topic has been beat and beat and beat---No Chief in the Greenburgh willbe relinguishing their bugles any time soon to a consolidiation movement thats for sure, nor will any of the Fire Commissioners.

The Greenville(Edgemont) area residents would rather leave the Town of Greenburgh the consolidiate anything--fire--school ect.

I sat on a consolidiation committee for almost 3 years --nothing happened NOTHING. They didnt understand 2%monies--nor did they understand Fire Protection money, they thought that you could just absorb the contracts into one big one. Nothing came out of the meeting.

The kingdome of Greenburgh is safe for a long time or at least until the public get outraged but things.

Whats different this time is it is not the fire districts or the union that is studying it. If the State passes this proposed legislation all Paul Feiner will have to do is convince a majority of VOTERS (as in the 20-30% of residence who actually show up) that this is a good idea and they will disband the 3 districts and become a town dept.

It is not about what it should be, its about what a select group of his supporters can pull off. This does not look at the FD's in the light of what we need to protect the communities. This is the 3rd or 4th high ranking state officials plan to get rid of fire and other special districts in the state.

[x635 4,066]

Well, the town has THREE independent fire districts, but ONE Police & EMS department, and ONE highway department, ONE Town Hall, ONE Town Court, One Water Distriict, etc.

In modern times, what's the rationale behind having three different redundant fire districts?

[61MACKBR1 222]

Sadly, this may be what is in store for many departments here in Westchester County in the future. With many politians looking for ways to save additional dollars, in order to reduce operational expenses and lessen the burden off of the taxpayers, Consolidation or Regionalization of Services (Fire, Police, EMS) will be presented to the "Taxpayers" rather than those who are more educated into the needs/requirements of a specific area/district (such as Chiefs and others within the Fire Departments).

If this Greenburgh Consolidation comes to be a reality in the next 5 years or so (Greenville, Hartsdale and Fairview combining) then you will start hearing County Politians pushing for some additional consolidations (for example a New Rochelle, Mount Vernon, Eastchester, Pelham and Pelham Manor consolidation)

Does it make sense from a Fire Protection sense? NO !!

Does it have any financial implications? Maybe ????

Will the Unions ever allow it to happen? NO WAY !!

If presented to the Taxpayers/Voters to approve, will the Unions have any say? Probably Not, as the decission will be taken out of their hands and placed in the hands of those citizens in the affect communities.

Yes, this subject has been beaten to death over the years on the EMTBravo.net site, but now it appears, that the subject will be in the hands of the taxpayers and not in the hands of the Professionals

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Why wouldn't the unions be on board for it? What do they stand to lose by consolidation? Wouldn't it open to the door to more overtime? Maybe more hires to bring everyone up to the same staffing levels (I don't know what the staffing levels are down there, so maybe not.) Coming from the West Haven perspective, consolidation is a great idea, it would bring alot of benefits, but without the proper logistical and financial planning, it will never happen.

Example, if one of the 3 departments (Dept A) has a larger pension deficit than another (Dept , why would the taxpayers from district B support consolidation? Its more money THEY will have to pay. There are positives and negatives to it, but the media/taxpayers generally don't look at all that. I'm happy I live in a town where there AREN'T fire commissioners/fire taxes (New Fairfield) after seeing what the downsides of it are.

[dc2t 80]

If there were to be a consolidation would that include the fire protection districts?? Taking away the FPD funding to the village fire departments would lead to an uproar and a quick vote out of office. That's one way to get rid of him.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why wouldn't the unions be on board for it? What do they stand to lose by consolidation? Wouldn't it open to the door to more overtime? Maybe more hires to bring everyone up to the same staffing levels (I don't know what the staffing levels are down there, so maybe not.) Coming from the West Haven perspective, consolidation is a great idea, it would bring alot of benefits, but without the proper logistical and financial planning, it will never happen.

The method proposed here has no fire service input. This concept is the state wants to reduce the number of "districts" (Fire, water, utility, etc.) and are considering allowing the public to vote on the idea. The reason the unions have to worry is this is driven by politicians with no understanding of the needs of FD's.

The 3 depts mentioned here run 5 engines, 3 ladders, & 1 rescue. The Town Supervisor will control all aspects of this new FD (read budget) and if he thinks 2 engines and 1 ladder can cover it, he can reduce the budget and lower taxes, which is what this is all about.

I am a big fan of consolidation......Too Improve Services.

This consolidation is very likely to gut fire services.

[x635 4,066]

However, look at the other side of the picture.

Each department has their own Chief and rank structure. Hartsdale's Chief is supposedly retiring in October. Fairview's Chief can retire whenever he wants to. In the future, I don't see that great of interest of people wanting to serve on the board of commisioners, in some cases, commisioners have been commisioners for years upon years running unchallenged. What better time to consolidate? Chief Raftery of Greenville has proven strong leadership skills, and the ability to coordinate interopeatability well with other communities. He would be a great leader for a Greenburgh Fire Department.

A single Deputy Chief supervising town-wide would be sufficient, Captain in each house and/or Lt. on each apparatus. Each department's independent command structures costs millions alone.

Fairview and Hartsdale both dispatch independently. This keeps two firefighters off the street, and costs money. Wouldn't having a central Greenburgh FD fire communications center be beneficial, especially considering these departments mutual aid and dual-response each other all the time?

Fairview and Hartsdale only have one firefighter (the driver) on their ladder trucks. Could staffing be reallocated to properly staff all apparatus?

Each department maintains it's own spare engine. Each has their own way of doing fleet maintainence. Greenburgh DPW has an excellent shop, and the capability of adding a fire apparatus fleet maintainence section.

Each department purchases seperately from each other. Could greater savings be achieved if all departments bought together?

Greenburgh, Fairview, and Hartsdale are one union, yet they have three seperate contracts. Why not a single contract? Not only would it save the department money in bargaining costs, it would also save the union money if they only had to bargain one contract.

The volunteer portions of these "combination" departments are all but obsolete.

And EMS should be transferred from the PD to a new Greenburgh FD, which would free up officers of the police department to police. It would also create a source of revenue for the FD.

The town could provide funding to build a Town of Greenburgh Fire Training Center, which could also include the villages.

A central Town Of Greenburgh FD Special Operations Division could be created that would fully staff a heavy rescue to cover the town and back up the villages.

Facility maintainence and new facilty costs could be kept down using the current town resources and facilities.

I don't think that a consolidation would be a bad thing. I don't see any downside for the firefighters or the taxpayers.

Put Chief Raftery and some others from the three departments as well as Local 1586 at the helm, and you will see an AWESOME department form that will set a great example for many other muncipalities around the region!

[firecapt32 282]

You all make greatpoints and this was discuessed in great lenghts during other consolitiation session.the point i am trying to make is that greenville voters wanted to leave the Town of Greenburgh before--They do not want to consolidate anything. consolitation of fire might lead some one to believe that consolitiationof school districts might save money too. and that my friends isnt happening in Edgemont.

[Bnechis 3,961]

If there were to be a consolidation would that include the fire protection districts?? Taking away the FPD funding to the village fire departments would lead to an uproar and a quick vote out of office. That's one way to get rid of him.

It does not look like FPD's are affected.

But Don't all voters in the town get to vote in town issues (like the library) so all the residence (and volunteers) in Ardsley, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Irvington, Hastings, & Tarrytown get to vote on disolving the fire districts in Greenville, Hartsdale & Fairview?

[IzzyEng4 427]

Look at the town charter for Greenburgh, does it have the provisions in the charter where it states they can provide a police force and also emergency medical services? If it states one or both then with ease the voters already have the right to petition for the town to provide town-wide fire protection. It would have to come under a referendum vote to add this language to the charter. So many towns have done this before and that is the beginning. With this they could do many things each way, and we all know what options that would entail so I am not going to list them all.

If all three districts have separate locals, then those locals would have to consolidate under one local entity as well, which is an entirely different issue as well.

[NJMedic 96]

In January 1999,the Hudson County, NJ cities of Weehawkin, North Bergen, Union City, West New York, and Guttenberg combined to form North Hudson Regional Fire and Rescue. Everything went from 5 seperate operations and command staffs into one. The communities served by North Hudson Regional Fire & Rescue are located directly across the Hudson River from the New York City borough of Manhattan, running from the Southernmost borders where Union City and North Bergen meet Jersey City to the Northern borders which touch Southeast Bergen County. The regional response area also covers, from East to West respectively, the Hudson River, including the Lincoln Tunnel to the community of Secaucus and the New Jersey Meadowlands. Last year they responded to over 29,000 jobs (no EMS transport).

Believe me, if it can happen in Hudson County, one of the strongest political machines in the Country, it can happen anywhere.

[Geppetto 31]

From what I remember about NYS Law, Towns cannot provide fire protection. Cities and Villages are required to. Town fire protection must be provided by a special district, either a Fire District (Boards of Fire Commissioners) or Fire Protection Districts which are contracted out. Consolidation, forced or otherwise, would lead to a "super-district" with it's own Board of Fire Commissioners unless the law also changes the authority of the town. A good example would be the Somers Fire District in NY which has contiguous boundaries as the town; but it's own Fire Commssioners.

reference - http://www.nyslocalgov.org/pdf/Fire_Protection_in_NYS.pdf

Edited May 21, 2009 by Geppetto

[x635 4,066]

But Don't all voters in the town get to vote in town issues (like the library) so all the residence (and volunteers) in Ardsley, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Irvington, Hastings, & Tarrytown get to vote on disolving the fire districts in Greenville, Hartsdale & Fairview?

I wouldn't make it as dramatic as "dissovlving", maybe bringing it into modern times is more the word.

The voters in the Villages have a right to vote, since they pay taxes to the Town, as well as to the village. And even so, I don't know if it would be a town wide vote, or the petition has to come from people living within the affected district (who vote in December in the seperate Fire District and Referendum elections)

As for the other point about NYS Law, you can still eliminate three fire districts to create one.

I still need someone to explain the rationale behind having three seperate fire districts in one town in this day and age.

[dc2t 80]

If there were to be a town wide fire department it should include all areas of the town patrolled by the PD. This would include the Fire Protection Districts.

Edited May 22, 2009 by dc2t

[Bnechis 3,961]

Look at the town charter for Greenburgh, does it have the provisions in the charter where it states they can provide a police force and also emergency medical services? If it states one or both then with ease the voters already have the right to petition for the town to provide town-wide fire protection. It would have to come under a referendum vote to add this language to the charter. So many towns have done this before and that is the beginning. With this they could do many things each way, and we all know what options that would entail so I am not going to list them all.

If all three districts have separate locals, then those locals would have to consolidate under one local entity as well, which is an entirely different issue as well.

THis can not be done under current NYS Law.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I wouldn't make it as dramatic as "dissovlving", maybe bringing it into modern times is more the word.

The proposal would be that the vote would desolve the current FD's (including laying off all personnel) Then forming a new dept (and hiring those personnel). There are no provissions to have any input from the fire service. Seth, you have a lot of high ideas about how great this could be, but what happens if the town supervisor gets his way and he & the town board figure the way to save money is drop the levels of protection. three 1 man engines, one 1 man ladder and a chief....a five man staff....great savings. This proposal is very dangerous.

If Albany passes this it also will affect the VFD's in districts. I.e. When Mt Pleasant has to drop to 1 dept. a lot of apparatus sales people will be very poor.

The voters in the Villages have a right to vote, since they pay taxes to the Town, as well as to the village. And even so, I don't know if it would be a town wide vote, or the petition has to come from people living within the affected district (who vote in December in the seperate Fire District and Referendum elections)

They do not pay fire tax to the town. It is not clear who gets to vote.

As for the other point about NYS Law, you can still eliminate three fire districts to create one.

Yes you can, but thats not what the AG is suggesting

I still need someone to explain the rationale behind having three seperate fire districts in one town in this day and age.

Thats easy, edgemont does not want to be part of Greenburg Central 7 and no one in Hartsdale & Greenville want to pay for all the none profits in Fairview

[firecapt32 282]

Paul Feiner will not repete will not be able to convince the voting citizens of Greenville(Edgemont) to disband the FD to consolidate ANYTHING.! He is not well liked in the area nor is he well recieved inthe area so convincing 20%-30% of the voters is out of the question. Although some sort of shared servives for the fire service has been an ongoing thing for many years there. I can rememebr being "loaned" out to Hartsdale then detailed to Fairview for the tour. So It is possible just isnt going to happen in any "offical" way.

Just my thoughts

[x635 4,066]

No matter what, it still doesn't make sense that these departments are all still seperate. Any working fire in the town, they all go. The have a lot of dual response areas. They train together. They are a single union. These departments can cut costs tremendously without sacrificing fire protection by consolidating. They can form a unified, single fire district independent of the town without comprimising fire protection if the right people are put in place.

The way things are now are fiscally irresponsible to the taxpayers. How can you justify the redundancies? Even if they don't consolidate, aren't there ways that they can work together better to save money?

What if each "region" in New Rochelle or Yonkers was it's own fire district? Would that make sense? Also to note, Eastchester has a single independent fire district/department to cover the Town Of Eastchester, Village of Tuckahoe and Village of Bronxville. Why can they do it?

Status quo is not the solution. I agree that, based on the way EMS is staffed within the town, that the town is not competent to provide fire protection when you can barely get a town ambulance which are barely staffed. However, I believe the day has come for a unified Greenburgh Fire District, and if these departments truly believe that they are being responsible to the taxpayers by maintaining three seperate districts, then that's fine. If the people who pay for these districts are given the truthful facts and decide that's the best way, then that's fine. Personally, I'd like to see a reputable goverment and fire service consultant come in and do an independent, unbiased review and see what they have to say about the way the town is set up.

This is just my opinion, and that's all. I know it's never going to happen. And please don't think that I am advocating saving money by cutting staff, I think staffing can be increased and money saved by streamlining and consolidating some expensive independent functions of these districts.

[Geppetto 31]

Westchester a case study for consolidation

Journal News

By Gerald McKinstry

May 25, 2009

With so many layers of government in Westchester County, Eastchester's Loretta Dalton says it wouldn't hurt taxpayers to share some of those redundant services. ...

http://www.lohud.com/article/2009905250339

[Goose 188]

Westchester a case study for consolidation

Journal News

By Gerald McKinstry

May 25, 2009

http://www.lohud.com/article/2009905250339

Good call, just saw that when i grabbed the paper.

[x635 4,066]

UPDATE from the Greenburgh Email list:

The New York State Senate joined the New York State Assembly in approving a historic new law that will enable voters to collect petition signatures to consolidate local governments, fire and special taxing districts. After petition signatures are collected - consolidation initiatives would be voted on by the people impacted. New York State has more than 10,500 governments that impose taxes and fees. This law makes it easier for the public to decide what level of government they want. It provides the voters with a mechanism to reduce the costs of government and local property taxes by making government more efficient.

The bill was initiated by the Attorney General, Andrew Cuomo. School districts are exempt from the bill. I am disappointed that county governments are also exempt--I have suggested that a study be completed to determine whether county government should be eliminated or merged with other counties (Connecticut, much of Massachusetts and Rhode Island have no county governments, This new law should provide the public with the ability to eliminate waste, inefficiency and duplication. Congratulations to our state lawmakers.