Train Wreck - Brainstorming - What would we do?

[dragonrescue 28]

I would like to keep the ball rolling that Bobby Benz started a few weeks ago and help keep this sight for what it was intended, TRAINING!

I received an e-mail this morning from a close friend of mine who is assigned to Special Hazards 1 in Providence, RI. He has a buddy who is on the job in Belgium and was working the day of the train wreck that killed 18 people and injured many more. I normally send these e-mails out to my distribution lists, but felt this would be a great place to discuss if we are prepared for something like this happening here in the North East. Look trough the photos in the link below, especially photo #81 on. The body of the rail cars tear apart from the truck portion and ended up high in the air. Aside from stopping all rail traffic and making sure we have enough help on the way, stabilization would be our first and foremost priority before we started the evacuation and disentanglement process. What equipment do we carry on the rigs that would do the job? What resources do we have that can be called in to assist with this task? This is beyond normal wood cribbing and pneumatic equipment. Are there cranes that would be available to assist us in stabilizing and can we get them in to the location of the wreck? OK, the scenario is out there, lets see what you got! LOL

http://picasaweb.google.com/TomVier/15_02_10Treinramp#

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Good morning Mike,

I'd call for Spanky if it was Metro North. Power shut-down, all tracks. Total rail traffic stoppage. Call for everybody, activate WSOTF, have Control notify every agency that they have a phone number for.

Mass EMS mobilization, and hospitals, trauma-center notification. Control is going to be very busy. Call for some air-med transport and establish a triage and landing zone in an open area somewhere nearby; plan for an EMS ferry system for multi-victims to the triage site, get that Command Board set up and get all the agency heads together there.

You're going to need rail-mounted cranes for stabilization, haevy duty air-bag system for some temp-stabilization, all portable stabilization systems available to the scene, maybe some tractor-trailer sized wreckers to spin out some cable and get a grip on something, even calling a few light duty Holmes wreckers might help.

Very important to establish NIMS ICS, especially get a staging officer out there to organize all the help coming in, I'd assign a firefighter or LT immediately, no sense in blocking up the area we might need road access to the site. How about a drop off point as close to the scene as possible, where rigs can roll up and stage equipment, then roll out to a parking area?

Depending on the time, you might need some heavy lighting systems, plus the generator-lights that we carried, portable 1000 watt lights.

Get the hydraulic rescue tools (you're going to need at least 4-6 systems maybe more?) out to the site. Ground ladders, Back-boards, stretchers, EMS equipment, lines stretched. Tread VERY carefully. Make entry into the cars in a stable area, and work your way forward, after evacuation of the able bodied. Then get ready for some serious PTSD scenes, some very dangerous and strenuous work lay ahead.

Then my superior officer would show up and change everything

[helicopper 1,050]

I'd have to say that we're terribly prepared for a train wreck in Belgium, geez, just think of the response time!

Seriously now, this is a great thread because so many areas have rail lines running through them. efdcapt115 hits on many of the key points so I'll just expand on a couple of them.

The management of the incident really needs to be organized, not just by assigning an IC and staging area manager but by fully staffing the planning and logistics sections because this incident is not going away anytime soon. Planning to organize the resource requirements and keep things on track, logistics because someone has to get all the stuff that efdcapt identified as being required.

I would argue strongly against the "y'all come" request for everyone to respond. Because they will and that will overwhelm the management and quickly become counterproductive. Every department should have a preplan for the credible worst case scenario in their community; it shouldn't be up to the overwhelmed IC to figure out what is needed on the fly. If you have a commuter rail line running through your response area there should be standing run cards that can quickly and efficinently be activated, just as is done for multiple fire alarms.

An assumption seems to be made that this is in an accessible area but if you look at much of the Metro North system, the line runs through some pretty remote (by metro NY area standards) areas. How will you get the lights and trucks and equipment to the scene if it isn't roadside?

Triage needs to happen as quickly as possible and ambulatory victims need to be escorted to an area of safety for further examination and treatment. Provisions for the evacuation of non-ambulatory victims also needs to be addressed.

Credentialing of responders and a bona fide accountability system need to be established and perimeters maintained to limit access to the scene - even by those in turnouts or with badges, stars, bars, or blue t-shirts.

Start working with Metro North or the responsible party to insure that all those stranded are being taken care of. Are there other trains stuck between stations? Are buses being mobilized to ferry them around the crash scene.

Food, water, rehab for the responders on scene (another reason to only call what's requested or you'll wind up with nothing but empty pizza boxes and orange soda left when the front line troops finally get a break).

Information to the public to allay anxiety and answer questions about loved ones. Hundreds of thousands of people ride the trains, that's a lot of phone calls to 911 trying to figure out who was on the train in question.

Alright, who's next?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Great Thread, lots of interesting issues.

>>Call for everybody........have Control notify every agency that they have a phone number for.<<

You will lose control very fast this way. You need to know who is coming and keep everyone else out. Establish strong perimeters and staging. Make sure you have enough law enforcement to do it and they know not to let FD or EMS in that has not been sent from staging.

>> Mass EMS mobilization, and hospitals, trauma-center notification. Control is going to be very busy.<<

60 can now do a mass notification with the trunk system and request all recieving facilities update there MCI bed status which we can recieve on rig PC's at scene.

>> Call for some air-med transport and establish a triage and landing zone in an open area somewhere nearby; plan for an EMS ferry system for multi-victims to the triage site.<<

Generally air medical sucks up more resources than it helps. Concentrate on the basics. Triage is generally not done in an area, but where you find them. Triage may also be an issue if the scene is not safe and EMS is not trained/equipped to operate in the hazard zone (can FD handle this?). Treatment areas need to be set up. Because of the cold, we need to get treatment areas out of the weather, options may include close buildings, large busses (bee line tandams are great for this) (backboarded patients can be placed over the seat backs), or heated tents (as seen in the pics) There are about a dozen of those heated tents in Westchester, most responders may not know that (each squad, each mass decon unit). For ferry system, consider 1) a rescue train (if distance is great, this may be best). 2) Metro north rail capable pick-up trucks. 3) rail rescue platforms (as seen in the pics), FDNY has them.

>> You're going to need rail-mounted cranes for stabilization.<< This might work well if you do not have overhead panagraphs, on the New Haven Line, chances are they will not get close.

>> Very important to establish NIMS ICS, especially get a staging officer out there to organize all the help coming in, I'd assign a firefighter or LT immediately, no sense in blocking up the area we might need road access to the site. How about a drop off point as close to the scene as possible, where rigs can roll up and stage equipment, then roll out to a parking area? <<

Once the rigs get into the scene, it will be hard to get them out to a parking area. Stagging is very very critical (look at what happened at Avianca crash). We do not do this well and it must be. Anyone who bypasses it needs to be sent home. If units (like engines)are going to be parked in staging, ambulances need to be in an area they can get out.

EMS ICS Managment is a big problem in Westchester, in many places it is very hard to get a crew out,much less crews and supervisors. For this incident we are going to need at least a 1/2 dozen EMS officers who know how to run MCI ops.

>> Depending on the time, you might need some heavy lighting systems, plus the generator-lights that we carried, portable 1000 watt lights.<<

Plan for it, it may not be dark now, but we will be here for many many hours.

There are many training and planning issues in this thread, most have never been addressed. Based on this many communities are going to perform poorly when this happens for real.

If you think it can't happen here, I took this pic in Mt. Vernon (and it was not the 1st time this happened at this location.

[wraftery 1,275]

Good morning Mike,

I'd call for Spanky if it was Metro North. Power shut-down, all tracks. Total rail traffic stoppage. Call for everybody, activate WSOTF, have Control notify every agency that they have a phone number for.

Mass EMS mobilization, and hospitals, trauma-center notification. Control is going to be very busy. Call for some air-med transport and establish a triage and landing zone in an open area somewhere nearby; plan for an EMS ferry system for multi-victims to the triage site, get that Command Board set up and get all the agency heads together there.

You're going to need rail-mounted cranes for stabilization, haevy duty air-bag system for some temp-stabilization, all portable stabilization systems available to the scene, maybe some tractor-trailer sized wreckers to spin out some cable and get a grip on something, even calling a few light duty Holmes wreckers might help.

Very important to establish NIMS ICS, especially get a staging officer out there to organize all the help coming in, I'd assign a firefighter or LT immediately, no sense in blocking up the area we might need road access to the site. How about a drop off point as close to the scene as possible, where rigs can roll up and stage equipment, then roll out to a parking area?

Depending on the time, you might need some heavy lighting systems, plus the generator-lights that we carried, portable 1000 watt lights.

Get the hydraulic rescue tools (you're going to need at least 4-6 systems maybe more?) out to the site. Ground ladders, Back-boards, stretchers, EMS equipment, lines stretched. Tread VERY carefully. Make entry into the cars in a stable area, and work your way forward, after evacuation of the able bodied. Then get ready for some serious PTSD scenes, some very dangerous and strenuous work lay ahead.

Then my superior officer would show up and change everything

Low pressure airbags should work for stabilization, just like righting a tractor trailer. Because you have a railroad car version of pick up sticks, I would not try to right cars, just apply a gentle touch for stabilization, do your work search,rescue,extricate etc. and move on to the next.

SPANKY will take care of all the disentanglement afterward. I would like to give 1 vote to Spanky just because he was recognized bt the Capt. Maybe a forum administrator could make this happen. What do say efdcapt115, wanna give a vote to Spanky too?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Low pressure airbags should work for stabilization, just like righting a tractor trailer. Because you have a railroad car version of pick up sticks, I would not try to right cars, just apply a gentle touch for stabilization, do your work search,rescue,extricate etc. and move on to the next.

SPANKY will take care of all the disentanglement afterward. I would like to give 1 vote to Spanky just because he was recognized bt the Capt. Maybe a forum administrator could make this happen. What do say efdcapt115, wanna give a vote to Spanky too?

I'm getting quite a spanking myself here....see I told you call Barry, and Chris is up there lookin' down, and yes I vote for Spanky....

Hey, this was the way it was when I was working. The brother asked a serious question, and what the heck, go for it. If it would have happened on my watch, that's pretty much what would have happened. When I said call everybody, I meant that in the figurative sense. A plan would evolve, but you have to start somewhere. And like the point was raised; if this happens on somebody's watch, right now, what's it going to be like for them? Have people thought about it? Good topic.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm getting quite a spanking myself here....see I told you call Barry, and Chris is up there lookin' down, and yes I vote for Spanky....

Hey, this was the way it was when I was working. The brother asked a serious question, and what the heck, go for it. If it would have happened on my watch, that's pretty much what would have happened. When I said call everybody, I meant that in the figurative sense. A plan would evolve, but you have to start somewhere. And like the point was raised; if this happens on somebody's watch, right now, what's it going to be like for them? Have people thought about it? Good topic.

Was not a spanking. What you wrote was a very good start and if you had been IC following your comments in Eastchester, it would have gone much better than it would have in many other communities.

I vote for spanky also

[dragonrescue 28]

Gentlemen,

I started this topic, because I had a hunch that there would be just a few responses. The problem is there is no game plan. It is imperative that this county and others around it get on the same page and start putting together a game plan. Volly or Paid stuff has to stop because that big train wreck is coming!!!!!!!!!!!! We need to stop using this site for bashing and use it for being proactive. It always seems that the majority of this site likes to comment on negative crap and it's getting old.

Stay Safe

Mike

Edited February 20, 2010 by dragonrescue

[wraftery 1,275]

I didn't see any spanking here, Cap, if we were all sitting around a table talking out this scenario, it would have sounded much the same...statements then comments then clarifications and so on.

The way I read it (a couple of times) it looks to me like we ARE on the same page. If I were the iC that had this incident I would have welcomed the guys who posted on this thread. If your comments were at a command post at an actual incident they probably would have been instrumental in formulating an Incident Action Plan of pretty high caliber. Yes, all from different FD's but all headed in the right direction. You guys are as professional as any FD can ask for.

For just a clarification, not spanking, I think efdcapt115 didn't mean Establish ICS. I believe he meant Expand and Formalize ICS, and establish Unified Command. No spanking, Cap, just rewording.

To all other readers: If we don't use ICS (not the whole book, just a piece) on the little stuff we will not know how to use it on the big stuff.

[keepmcomingcentral 4]

Great thread and some very good comments by all. One thing we should all keep in mind is to determine the cause of the incident before rushing right in here.

Remember in our area (Metro NYC) this may not be a human caused error or just faulty equipment. It is very possible that a scene like this could be the result of a terroristic act. When this happens we have have to approach the scene with assistance from law enforcement also. Bomb Squads, canine units and others must perform physical searches and mitigate in order to make sure no secondary devices are present.

In these types of incidents it is very possible that more than one device may be involved on the same train. I would cautiously recommend that prior to establishing a Command Post, Triage and Staging areas that thought be given to safety from secondary devices. MTA PD, Westchester County DPS and others have plenty of resources to help perform these sweeps. Usually this only takes a few minutes and we train for these situations all the time.

Another thing to keep in mind is that history has shown that if this is happening in one jurisdiction, it is very probable that there will be other events in the region that may occurr simutaneously . It is very important to step back and look at the whole dynamic picture before committing every single resource we have to one location.

IC is so important in a scene like this. Only by using it everday in everything we do will we make this scene work well.

MNR usually holds one mass casualty drill a year in the northern suburbs and I highly recommend that all attend even if only as an observer.

Just my two cents and a great thread for all of us to keep discussing.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Was not a spanking. What you wrote was a very good start and if you had been IC following your comments in Eastchester, it would have gone much better than it would have in many other communities.

I vote for spanky also

I didn't see any spanking here, Cap, if we were all sitting around a table talking out this scenario, it would have sounded much the same...statements then comments then clarifications and so on.

The way I read it (a couple of times) it looks to me like we ARE on the same page. If I were the iC that had this incident I would have welcomed the guys who posted on this thread. If your comments were at a command post at an actual incident they probably would have been instrumental in formulating an Incident Action Plan of pretty high caliber. Yes, all from different FD's but all headed in the right direction. You guys are as professional as any FD can ask for.

For just a clarification, not spanking, I think efdcapt115 didn't mean Establish ICS. I believe he meant Expand and Formalize ICS, and establish Unified Command. No spanking, Cap, just rewording.

To all other readers: If we don't use ICS (not the whole book, just a piece) on the little stuff we will not know how to use it on the big stuff.

Thank you guys, and that's what I would have been saying if this accident happened, and turned around and saw either of you standing there to help get this thing figured out!

BTW: I posted early, drove to Miami Beach for the day (if you think traffic is bad in NY.....) then posted again after the long ride home. My Spanky pun was only intended as that.

Bring that knowledge on brothers, because I'm here to learn.

[dragonrescue 28]

I didn't see any spanking here, Cap, if we were all sitting around a table talking out this scenario, it would have sounded much the same...statements then comments then clarifications and so on.

The way I read it (a couple of times) it looks to me like we ARE on the same page. If I were the iC that had this incident I would have welcomed the guys who posted on this thread. If your comments were at a command post at an actual incident they probably would have been instrumental in formulating an Incident Action Plan of pretty high caliber. Yes, all from different FD's but all headed in the right direction. You guys are as professional as any FD can ask for.

For just a clarification, not spanking, I think efdcapt115 didn't mean Establish ICS. I believe he meant Expand and Formalize ICS, and establish Unified Command. No spanking, Cap, just rewording.

To all other readers: If we don't use ICS (not the whole book, just a piece) on the little stuff we will not know how to use it on the big stuff.

chief,

My comment wasn't directed to the few here that had good input. It was a general comment about how we get 546 comments on the Stamford Merger and 80 comments on Volly Parades and a good topic like this gets 10. Something is just not right here.....

Mike

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The management of the incident really needs to be organized, not just by assigning an IC and staging area manager but by fully staffing the planning and logistics sections because this incident is not going away anytime soon. Planning to organize the resource requirements and keep things on track, logistics because someone has to get all the stuff that efdcapt identified as being required.

I would argue strongly against the "y'all come" request for everyone to respond. Because they will and that will overwhelm the management and quickly become counterproductive. Every department should have a preplan for the credible worst case scenario in their community; it shouldn't be up to the overwhelmed IC to figure out what is needed on the fly.

Alright, who's next?

Hey, y'all makin' fun of my newfound southern accent? lol

In essence I was playing, and don't mind illustrating (I'm off the job now) the overwhelmed, undertrained, relying on "common sense" IC, and figuring things out on the fly and typing them here. Why? Because I was in that role for 8 years, and that's how it's done/ was done in the fire service. You want SOPs, when I worked in a combo-job that covered enough track to have two stops in our first response area of the Hudson Line, this was your SOP. Use your brain. We got FLSTPS, then we got the passenger seat. Then we met Spanky.

Now keep in mind I'm out since 2006. I know the new Chiefs, working with the Captains have made strides in training since then. The mutual-aid plans have greatly improved. They are running two and two on full assignments; something I fought for for the entire time I was H&S chair. The FAST equipment is top of the line, running on the TL.

Do they, or better yet, do all the career jobs in southern Westchester, then how about all the volunteer jobs in northen Westchester, that would be called to duty at an incident of this magnitude, or using the small plane crash incident in Austin, TX as another scenario, have a plan? Have the officers received the appropriate management courses to be able to scale up rapidly and efficiently, so it doesn't turn into the Avianca crash scene?

Then we get to the second LE post from keepemcommincentral, and that gets into all the precautionary details, the not rushing in aspects of the new anti-terror approach adopted by FDNY, Police agencies, and others. We know the fire officer has his/her thing, the police officals have theirs, and the EMS people have theirs. This was one thing I noticed that went apparently very well in Austin at the plane crash. That female Division Chief had a very good handle on the situation, so did the Police chief and the Chief of EMS.

That leads me to ask, what about all the town, village, and city police departments in lower and northern Westchester? What are their plans for Incident Management? Have they cross-trained and interacted with the other agencies? I always think in fire department terms. The Emergency Management people should be thinking in those larger terms of combined ops; but they are supposed to be support. They don't run the scene. So, how about them small PDs?

Are ALL the emergency agencies in Westchester, and adjoining counties getting those Metro North drills? Are the agencies meshing and is the planning and training in place?

I know the cops I worked with at jobs were proficient people, and their professionalism was always improving.

If anyone has this incident, is it the officer-on-the-fly, or is it the cross-trained, pre-planned orchestra of cooperation and effectiveness of the emergency agencies?

[Anthony Tester 13]

I could not help but chime in. After 7 years of being involved in all the Subway Drills and handling the Fire end of things, I had to comment. From my experience, go to the Drills and treat it as it is the real deal. You are going to have to work with all of the agencies involved, and if you have never had the pleasure, it is not going to be easy. A UNIFIED command post has to be to set up from the get go. And those IC's have to stay there. Representatives from each agency have to be there. Oh, and they probably are not going to be there as fast as you like, so you better have some contact numbers. Pre-plan information is really going to come into play here, hopefully someone has that information, especially if you are underground. If not, things are looking up for you. Hopefully, besides getting traction power off, train traffic stopped, and some of the immediate hazards identified, you better hope its not a rush hour train packed with passengers. You will need a calculator at this point to calculate how many passengers are on each train car then times that by how many train cars you have. Oh, and some train cars are longer than others and therefore can hold more passengers. But you have attended the Drills and already have been able to identify what kind of train cars you are dealing with. All the agencies share the same frequencies and can immediately go to those channels, right? You have tried out your radios in different areas to make sure they are in range, correct? There are going to be dead spots and hopefully you have learned to relay radio to radio, and get the information back to the Unified command post. Are you sure you are only dealing with the train involved? Or are there multiple trains involved. An incident I had a few years ago involved 3 trains. One agency was operating at one train, another on an additional train, and a third that had to reverse itself to get away from the fire. One agency had no idea that there were other trains involved. Hundreds of people were injured, thankfully not to seriously. This incident was outdoors AND underground. Enough with the war stories.... The acts of terrorism has crossed your mind and you have thought about primary and secondary devices, chemical and biological devices, right? You have a MAJOR MCI plan, you ARE going to need it. Its going to be a very hectic incident, hopefully you and your other departments have been working together as well as the other agencies and have all learned to place nice in the sandbox. I have been to every major incident down here for the last several years and have had the fortune to work with representatives from so many agencies. Utilize them and work together with them now, because when it happens, there is no time to work the kinks out.

Just my few cents worth. Be Safe and don't be afraid to reach out to Spanky, Gerardi, or myself.

[wraftery 1,275]

chief,

My comment wasn't directed to the few here that had good input. It was a general comment about how we get 546 comments on the Stamford Merger and 80 comments on Volly Parades and a good topic like this gets 10. Something is just not right here.....

Mike

Mike, you are right on. Look at this thread and who answered. They are all guys with time on the job, experience, and a lot of training. I just hope that the new generation is reading this thread and gaining some knowledge from it. Hopefully, they are not stuck on things like the Stamford situation, fire engine photos, etc.

We have seen 100's of comments on one photo of a guy on a roof with a saw. They picked out dozens of tiny little items in that one photo, but throw up a picture of a train wreck, and all you get is silence.

Like you said, "Something is just not right here."

[dragonrescue 28]

Anthony Tester is "Right On"! I would like to make a proposal. I think a table top training evolution involving all agencies and their top brass in Westchester is a must. If we need to, we could do all career chief's first and then the volunteers (hopefully we can play nice in the sand box and do it together). SOP's/SOG's can be established from this exercise. The County could sponsor it (I will start making phone calls on Monday) and follow it up with an MCI drill with all agencies. If this proves successful, we could do this on a bi-annual basis and prepare for other emergencies that would require multi-agencies. The Hudson, in my opinion, is another accident waiting to happen. I'm open for more of your excellent feedback and suggestions..........

[ajsbear 11]

Someone commented that there was one in Mt Vernon a long time ago. It was in either 72 or 73 if I remember right. Long before the mutual aid plans of today, all the technical advances etc. Air chisels were the best we could do then. DADBO help me out here. We had ambulance from all over southern Westchester and CT. Some from NYC as well. It also happened to be the annual inspection night so every rig went out with more than full crews. We managed to get through it with only one DOA and he was in the bathroom in the last car. Mt Vernon Hospital was just up the street and back then had a good E.D.

[Guest]

Not to get off topic but who/what is Spanky

[wraftery 1,275]

Not to get off topic but who/what is Spanky

Gongratulations. I was wondering who would finally ask!

Spanky is the nickname of the guy who is presently Fire Chief of Metro North Commuter Railroad. His jurisdiction runs from Grand Central Terminal to the ends of all three lines of MNRR.

Spanky is a good guy

Edited February 20, 2010 by wraftery

[dadbo46 50]

Someone commented that there was one in Mt Vernon a long time ago. It was in either 72 or 73 if I remember right. Long before the mutual aid plans of today, all the technical advances etc. Air chisels were the best we could do then. DADBO help me out here. We had ambulance from all over southern Westchester and CT. Some from NYC as well. It also happened to be the annual inspection night so every rig went out with more than full crews. We managed to get through it with only one DOA and he was in the bathroom in the last car. Mt Vernon Hospital was just up the street and back then had a good E.D.

It was June of '73. You're right, we were standing inspection at Engine 5/Truck 3 when the box at 1 & 1 was pulled. The collision was of a train stopped in the "new" Mt. Vernon East station on the New Haven line and of another train coming around the curve into the station. I don't remember the cause.

Lots of injuries, but, you're right, only 1 DOA. MVPD made an announcement on the PD HOTLINE that ambulances were needed. Buses from all over showed up.

Perhaps CHIEFHAC can add more. He got his picture on the front page of The Daily News the next day.

Edited February 21, 2010 by dadbo46

[chris 18]

What about Joe Streany ??

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Yes, I think it would be wise to start looking into something like this happening and setting up a game plan ( if you will ) BUT why does the County have to set this up and why does it fall in the hands of the Dept's who has tracks in it ?? Yes, they may have to one day deal with this type of headache, but I really think the cure should start with the Railroads.... Metro North and Amtrack should spear head this and take the bull by the horns and start contacting the Dept's around their tracks and work with them.... ( when a developer wants to build something really big, they usually offer something to the FD's to help deal with a new " issue ", so that it does not have to be dealt with by the tax payers ) and then set up special training with RR officials who know this the best and work on procedures which will need to be followed... They should tell us what equipment have, which can assist us in an incident ( much like Con Ed has been doing )....

I have trouble with being taxed for MTA useage, and for having one of their largest repair shops in my district ( which we protect and serve with no funds coming to our " Services " ) and now " we " ( taxpayers ) have to foot the bill for training, equipment, etc... for a problem which could happen with their lines and trains !! I thinks its time for them to step up to the plate, and start teaching us ( I took Stiloskis heavy truck class, and really learned allot there ) what is the best way to stablized a train, cut into a train, and learn what NOT to do...They should show us just how long it would be before they can get an Emergency Crew there.... They have plenty of old trains which just get cut up, so use them like we train with cars and trucks and help us get better at something which could happen... I for one, as well many guys from Croton would jump at that type of training...

Then once they are " ALL ABOARD !! ", then start a planning session and get a real plan in place...

So calling Spanky the day off, its helpful, but it would be best to preplan and call Spanky NOW !!! tell him they need to train us... they need to get things planned out and ready for they day we wish never happens...

[wraftery 1,275]

It was June of '73. You're right, we were standing inspection at Engine 5/Truck 3 when the box at 1 & 1 was pulled. The collision was of a train stopped in the "new" Mt. Vernon East station on the New Haven line and of another train coming around the curve into the station. I don't remember the cause.

Lots of injuries, but, you're right, only 1 DOA. MVPD made an announcement on the PD HOTLINE that ambulances were needed. Buses from all over showed up.

Perhaps CHIEFHAC can add more. He got his picture on the front page of The Daily News the next day.

If I am right, one train was stopped, and the one that crashed into it from the rear had an engineer who was doing pot while driving the train.

[Anthony Tester 13]

Yes, I think it would be wise to start looking into something like this happening and setting up a game plan ( if you will ) BUT why does the County have to set this up and why does it fall in the hands of the Dept's who has tracks in it ?? Yes, they may have to one day deal with this type of headache, but I really think the cure should start with the Railroads.... Metro North and Amtrack should spear head this and take the bull by the horns and start contacting the Dept's around their tracks and work with them.... ( when a developer wants to build something really big, they usually offer something to the FD's to help deal with a new " issue ", so that it does not have to be dealt with by the tax payers ) and then set up special training with RR officials who know this the best and work on procedures which will need to be followed... They should tell us what equipment have, which can assist us in an incident ( much like Con Ed has been doing )....

I have trouble with being taxed for MTA useage, and for having one of their largest repair shops in my district ( which we protect and serve with no funds coming to our " Services " ) and now " we " ( taxpayers ) have to foot the bill for training, equipment, etc... for a problem which could happen with their lines and trains !! I thinks its time for them to step up to the plate, and start teaching us ( I took Stiloskis heavy truck class, and really learned allot there ) what is the best way to stablized a train, cut into a train, and learn what NOT to do...They should show us just how long it would be before they can get an Emergency Crew there.... They have plenty of old trains which just get cut up, so use them like we train with cars and trucks and help us get better at something which could happen... I for one, as well many guys from Croton would jump at that type of training...

Then once they are " ALL ABOARD !! ", then start a planning session and get a real plan in place...

So calling Spanky the day off, its helpful, but it would be best to preplan and call Spanky NOW !!! tell him they need to train us... they need to get things planned out and ready for they day we wish never happens...

Not too sure where you have been, but you are way off here. Metro North does drills all the time, in NY and CT. They have always been more than willing to help.

[Bnechis 3,961]

MVPD made an announcement on the PD HOTLINE that ambulances were needed. Buses from all over showed up.

In my original medic class, we were told that the message was Major Disaster Send all Available Ambulances. 6 hours after all patients had been transfered amulances were still showing up from at least as far as Albany. I dont know if that is true or not, but it is the way I always remember to ask for what you need and not all come.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

In my original medic class, we were told that the message was Major Disaster Send all Available Ambulances. 6 hours after all patients had been transfered amulances were still showing up from at least as far as Albany. I dont know if that is true or not, but it is the way I always remember to ask for what you need and not all come.

I dove Patrol 4 A.K.A. Rescue 40 PCFD to MT Vernon with our new Hurst Tool that night ,what a night !

[Remember585 815]

Not too sure where you have been, but you are way off here. Metro North does drills all the time, in NY and CT. They have always been more than willing to help.

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the last drill Metro-North had in our area was about 20 years ago. I remember it vaguely, because I was still in Middle School and couldn't go.

[Bnechis 3,961]

BUT why does the County have to set this up and why does it fall in the hands of the Dept's who has tracks in it ?? Yes, they may have to one day deal with this type of headache, but I really think the cure should start with the Railroads.... Metro North and Amtrack should spear head this and take the bull by the horns and start contacting the Dept's around their tracks and work with them....

Why does the county & local FD's have to plan for incidents on the highways, the airport, waterways and every other location? It is not the property owners responsibility to determine how we should do our job. It is there responsibility to support our efforts and they do that.

( when a developer wants to build something really big, they usually offer something to the FD's to help deal with a new " issue ", so that it does not have to be dealt with by the tax payers )

Can you please tell that to Trump, Cappelli and Avalon, they all put massive new issues into my city and I would like to know what they give us other than lots of calls and new challenges. The railroad was in New Rochelle long before the FD and we have been there for 149 years.

and then set up special training with RR officials who know this the best and work on procedures which will need to be followed... They should tell us what equipment have, which can assist us in an incident

They have done that training many times, while they know the procedures for safely responding to the trains and what can or can not be done in relation to them, I do not believe that they are the "experts" on emergency planning for large disasters, mass casulty incidents or the capabilities of local emergency services, that is not ther job to know. They have been very very helpful in assisting us to plan, but they will not be the ones who have to run the incident, those that are need to do the planning.

I have trouble with being taxed for MTA useage......( which we protect and serve with no funds coming to our " Services " )

I agree, but as a career dept. have an even bigger issue with this. My dept. has to pay MTA $50,000/year (as does the PD and our public works...etc. to the tune of $1/4m) as part of the MTA TAX and after paying we get to go on over 300 calls/year to handle their issues. But that is not the falt of the MTA, its the fault of our representatives in Albany who did this, because this would cause no impact. THe impact is we reduced other services by $50,000 to make up the difference.

I thinks its time for them to step up to the plate, and start teaching us what is the best way to stablized a train, cut into a train, and learn what NOT to do...They should show us just how long it would be before they can get an Emergency Crew there.... They have plenty of old trains which just get cut up, so use them like we train with cars and trucks and help us get better at something which could happen... I for one, as well many guys from Croton would jump at that type of training...

They have stepped up many times. Any time we have asked they did training and have been very willing to go the extra mile to help us.

Cutting up trains sounds like lots of fun, so does stabilizing them. In reality they are so well built that you will not be able to do much cutting, except of the tangled mess of seats and racks inside and thats no different than a school bus. Stabilizing is next to impossible with the resources available to almost every single agency and for the most part every major crash has been handled with almost no stabilization, because the trains came to rest where they end up for days. The training that is needed is Incident Managment, which very few agencies are well schooled in (yes we've taken the NIMS classes), but we are not ready to run incidents of this magnitude.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Can you please tell that to Trump, Cappelli and Avalon, they all put massive new issues into my city and I would like to know what they give us other than lots of calls and new challenges

this lies with the City .... " going to bed " with the Contractor giving them so many " perks " to build these giant throphies to themselves, which in the end, do nothing for the people who lived in the City before they can to Build... So your city sold you out .... ( nothing personal )

I am not sure, but isn't the builder of that new " Mini City " in Yonkers, passing off some funds to better the fire service in this area.... Which should be the right thing...

Other depts have gotten Tower ladders and engines for development...

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Not too sure where you have been, but you are way off here. Metro North does drills all the time, in NY and CT. They have always been more than willing to help.

I have to agree with my Chief here, as I have been here longer then he has, but Training from Metro has been limited, and I have been very Active in Croton since 1983...