Buffalo rejects post-funeral booze tab for Firefighters

[NWFDMedic 58]

There are some municipalities that have a policy in place that alcohol will not be paid for through public funds. If this was the case in Buffalo, then the Union should have known that the bill would not have been paid. I tend to think, however, that a city the size of Buffalo probably doesn't have such a clause because their officials like to have their expense accounts when they travel on "conferences".

The fire district that I volunteer for has a strict "no alcohol with public funds" policy. I don't see that as a bad thing and the district has provided funding for our installation dinner (legally) but the company provides for the cost of the bar. I know a lot of smaller districts do this as well.

If there was a policy in place, shame on the Union for expecting payment. If there was no such policy, shame on the City for choosing this event to make a political splash.

[M' Ave 1,466]

All of us here have attended a re-pass (yes that is what it is called) after a funeral. A lot of the time a place is rented with food and refreshments served. When you are billed it is itemized aka everything is listed that was purchased. So obviously when the city got the bill they said WHOA WAIT A MINUTE! So do you think that the city is wrong for not paying for the alcohol on the bill? I don't, what city pays for alcohol for events?. But then again if the city said hey we are going to foot the bill, they should have said that no alcohol should be served or paid for by the city.

On the other hand yes the contract was violated but the whole thing should have been planned better. The only people that got BUFFALOED are those involved in this "fight" that didn't cross their T's and dot their I's.

EVERY city pays for alcohol. I can't think of a single city or any one of it's agency's that doesn't have some formal function or gathering during that year and booze is included on the bill. Do you think that the New York City Hall annual Holiday Party is dry? Come on now. I remember when I still belonged to a volunteer company. Included in EVERY years budget was money for the annual inspection. This event included a cocktail hour and formal reception at a fairly expensive hall. Booze was served, many invited and the municipality covered the bill.

What's wrong with all of these examples? NOTHING. There is nothing wrong with a government paying for business/social events where alcohol is on the menu and legally served to attendees. Adults can drink, so says the 21th amendment. If the contract states that a collation should be paid for by the city, it's only natural to expect it to include the serving of alcohol. This article is a slanted disgrace.

In the matter of non-contractual functions or (god forbid) LODD functions, I would assume that all municipalities are indeed cutting back on non-essential functions. It would only be prudent in these economic times.

Edited February 25, 2010 by M' Ave

[Raz 14]

^^^Excellent post, really sums everything up perfectly.

OK, its class time:

Most volly departments operate under a set of by-laws for a social organization, much like the elks lodge or loins club. They, however, supply the man power for the fire district (which is the taxing entity) to operate its equipment and preform it duties on calls. The fire district and the fire company are two totally and completely separate entities.

When a department holds a boot drive or any other fund raising event, and the signs out front say support [insert taxing name here], the money raised will go to the taxing entity. If however the sign says [insert social organization here], then the money goes to the members of the social organization and they can do what they want with the money.

Yes, it's class time on EMTBravo, which always seems to be given by the members who are eager to share the wealth of knowledge from their 3 years in the volunteer fire service.

You can argue semantics all you want, but at the end of the day, fire departments are funded by tax money (and EMS billing if they're savvy/sketchy enough to split that portion off into a separate entity like some districts). If you honestly believe that every single non-firematic expense of a district, professional or volunteer, is paid for solely through 2% money or fundraising, then you're being purposefully obtuse.

Furthermore, I would argue that an overwhelming majority of the public has absolutely no idea of the differences implied by signs that read "Support X Fire District", versus "Support X Fire Company." You can argue that that's not your problem, but then it veers into the murky area of misleading the public.

Either way, this is a simple contract dispute that will be settled by a grievance, and rather quickly.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Raz

[bfxfd 8]

Private funds that magically appear from where?

The funds come from a variety of sources. Wether they be member dues, donations to the company or money made in return from social events that the Fire company sponsors there is no required contribution from anyone (i.e taxes).

[gamewell45 258]

^^^Excellent post, really sums everything up perfectly.

Yes, it's class time on EMTBravo, which always seems to be given by the members who are eager to share the wealth of knowledge from their 3 years in the volunteer fire service.

You can argue semantics all you want, but at the end of the day, fire departments are funded by tax money (and EMS billing if they're savvy/sketchy enough to split that portion off into a separate entity like some districts). If you honestly believe that every single non-firematic expense of a district, professional or volunteer, is paid for solely through 2% money or fundraising, then you're being purposefully obtuse.

Furthermore, I would argue that an overwhelming majority of the public has absolutely no idea of the differences implied by signs that read "Support X Fire District", versus "Support X Fire Company." You can argue that that's not your problem, but then it veers into the murky area of misleading the public.

Either way, this is a simple contract dispute that will be settled by a grievance, and rather quickly.

Sometimes youth sharing their knowledge and ideas with us can be a good thing; after all the youth are the future of the fire service.

[ny10570 745]

After 11 years as a volunteer in Westchester I could not tell you which depts operate with that company/district funding separation. I'm fairly savvy and involved and still can't tell, what are the chances the average citizen can? When you go out collecting as the company do you do so completely independent from the district? For example wearing or using district equipment? How about on district property?

[helicopper 1,050]

Thank you efdcapt for summing up the Buffalo situation so eloquently. Now, generally speaking...

There are some municipalities that have a policy in place that alcohol will not be paid for through public funds. If this was the case in Buffalo, then the Union should have known that the bill would not have been paid. I tend to think, however, that a city the size of Buffalo probably doesn't have such a clause because their officials like to have their expense accounts when they travel on "conferences".

The fire district that I volunteer for has a strict "no alcohol with public funds" policy. I don't see that as a bad thing and the district has provided funding for our installation dinner (legally) but the company provides for the cost of the bar. I know a lot of smaller districts do this as well.

If there was a policy in place, shame on the Union for expecting payment. If there was no such policy, shame on the City for choosing this event to make a political splash.

EVERY city pays for alcohol. I can't think of a single city or any one of it's agency's that doesn't have some formal function or gathering during that year and booze is included on the bill. Do you think that the New York City Hall annual Holiday Party is dry? Come on now. I remember when I still belonged to a volunteer company. Included in EVERY years budget was money for the annual inspection. This event included a cocktail hour and formal reception at a fairly expensive hall. Booze was served, many invited and the municipality covered the bill.

What's wrong with all of these examples? NOTHING. There is nothing wrong with a government paying for business/social events where alcohol is on the menu and legally served to attendees. Adults can drink, so says the 21th amendment. If the contract states that a collation should be paid for by the city, it's only natural to expect it to include the serving of alcohol. This article is a slanted disgrace.

In the matter of non-contractual functions or (god forbid) LODD functions, I would assume that all municipalities are indeed cutting back on non-essential functions. It would only be prudent in these economic times.

"EVERY" may be a strong word. Barring a contractual obligation as is apparently the case in Buffalo, there are probably a great many jurisdictions that prohibit such expenditures. See the post above, there's at least one political subdivisiont that won't pay for alcohol.

^^^Excellent post, really sums everything up perfectly.

Yes, it's class time on EMTBravo, which always seems to be given by the members who are eager to share the wealth of knowledge from their 3 years in the volunteer fire service.

You can argue semantics all you want, but at the end of the day, fire departments are funded by tax money (and EMS billing if they're savvy/sketchy enough to split that portion off into a separate entity like some districts). If you honestly believe that every single non-firematic expense of a district, professional or volunteer, is paid for solely through 2% money or fundraising, then you're being purposefully obtuse.

Furthermore, I would argue that an overwhelming majority of the public has absolutely no idea of the differences implied by signs that read "Support X Fire District", versus "Support X Fire Company." You can argue that that's not your problem, but then it veers into the murky area of misleading the public.

Either way, this is a simple contract dispute that will be settled by a grievance, and rather quickly.

Very well said and I would venture to guess that using this as a defense may come back and bite you if there's ever an instance of funds crossing this magic company/district "line".

[JimmyPFD 11]

A lot of strong feelings about this topic are being expressed. When initially starting this topic; I said that I agreed with the City in rejecting the "bar bill." I want to clarify why that is so.

I am a Volly, as well as a civil servant and a tax paying home owner. That is all beside the point but should be said.

If the itemized bill said, 'beverages' or 'refreshments', at the city office reviewing the expenses might have just approved it and kept going. If the Department wanted to eat the expense under their budget; I would have no problem with that. It might not be the smartest thing to do, but could understand. I don't fault the municipality's bean counters for doing what they are also supposed to do.

I would not expect my City to foot the bill, but I sure as hell would expect my Volunteer associations or Union, (if that were the case) to chose to pick up that tab.

[Guest]

Private funds that magically appear from where?

some of these funds are gathered through re-location of money from benefits and such. The vol. FD I used to belong to before I became paid had a contract with the town as do a lot of vol. FDs these days (i think?) through this contract the dept was given a budget and this money went to two sides: Line and civil. the Civil side paid for the booze

[Raz 14]

some of these funds are gathered through re-location of money from benefits and such. The vol. FD I used to belong to before I became paid had a contract with the town as do a lot of vol. FDs these days (i think?) through this contract the dept was given a budget and this money went to two sides: Line and civil. the Civil side paid for the booze

My apologies, that was a sarcastic question posed to the poster who claimed that all FD's use "private money" to pay for certain things. Your situation is exactly what I was referencing. Just because it's "private funding" now, doesn't mean it wasn't tax money before someone moved it to the another page on the ledger. Though I'm glad that you spelled that out, as you would have a greater understanding than most in this thread. I'm guessing that you vollied for a municipal fire dept, and not a fire district like many people that posted (JimmyPFD being the other exception).

It all goes back to the fact that 1) this happens all the time for events much less deserving of public monetary backing, and 2) a contract is a contract.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Raz

[Guest]

People will complain about anything. Especially, in this case when it involves alcohol. Being associated with both a career and volunteer department I see it all the time. For example my volunteer department suffered a LODD this week. During the course of getting things together we received several complaints from the public. The first was from a resident living near the church. He was outraged that we asked him to please not park his car on the street during the service. The second was from people questioning us on who was paying for the street cleaning that was taking place. This is small town (about 5000 people) and we were using a neighboring towns street sweeper. They wanted to know who was paying for the cost of the vehicle. They wanted to make sure that taxpayer money wasn't being used for this. The neighboring town offered it to us at no expense. People don't care about anything except money. In this case when alcohol is involved it is only going to stir things up more.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

UPDATE:

Firefighter funerals cost debate is settled

The settlement DOES NOT reimburse the fire union for alcohol that was served at receptions after the 2009 funerals, as the union had sought. But with the inclusion of additional receipts for nonalcoholic costs, and the reclassification of a catering bill incurred days before the funerals, the union would be reimbursed $25,050.95 — or almost $51 more than what union leaders had sought.

So after we all weighed in on the issue, it's settled and termed a "win-win" for both parties involved.

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/03/29/1002847/firefighter-funerals-cost-debate.html

[RescueKujo 130]

People will complain about anything. Especially, in this case when it involves alcohol. Being associated with both a career and volunteer department I see it all the time. For example my volunteer department suffered a LODD this week. During the course of getting things together we received several complaints from the public. The first was from a resident living near the church. He was outraged that we asked him to please not park his car on the street during the service. The second was from people questioning us on who was paying for the street cleaning that was taking place. This is small town (about 5000 people) and we were using a neighboring towns street sweeper. They wanted to know who was paying for the cost of the vehicle. They wanted to make sure that taxpayer money wasn't being used for this. The neighboring town offered it to us at no expense. People don't care about anything except money. In this case when alcohol is involved it is only going to stir things up more.

SFD-first off please accept my condolences on the loss of your Brother. May he Rest in Peace.

as for the money aspect, it's already hit here on the West Coast. Anti public safety letters to the editors and columns written in the paper decry the salaries and pensions of anyone in public safety as the cause for economic turmoil cities and states are in out here. While I understand their angst, as their taxes may be raised and as they have trouble making their own ends meet, their ignorance is saddening. To complain of the inconvience due to either a Public Safety Officer or Military funeral makes my heart sink, as it tells me the respect the general population has for those that protect them is quickly eroding.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

SFD-first off please accept my condolences on the loss of your Brother. May he Rest in Peace.

Amen.