Proposed Fire Department cuts

[firepost 0]

I recently found out that the New York City government will be recommended that 20 fire companies will be made into day time only companies and that they will be out of service during "night time" hours. Does any one know which companies will have their night time hours cut?

I saw a news tape with the fire commissioner saying that it is at least better then the city's plan from last year that would have taken the 20 fire companies out of service altogether.

One thing that I don't understand is that the population of New York City is actually larger then it was in 1950 and it was continually growing in the 2000's so given that fact ,how can the city even justify taking fire companies out of service? Logically speaking the more people that a city has the higher the city's revenue source should be. New York's population according to the 2009 census bureau statistics had a population of 8,391,881 people which is highest population in New York City's history.

[Remember585 815]

Makes sense to me, I mean, you never hear of any fatal fires at night...

So many other ways to cut spending. Eliminating fire companies is not one of them!

[x635 4,066]

Besides the residential population, I wonder what the population swells to during the day, PLUS at night with all the people that visit NYC and go to school in NYC.

I honestly think this is yet another example of a department that has had decades of poor financial planning. When finances are good, it's spend spend spend, even on things that are not needed. When finances are bad it's cut cut cut. The finance laws need major reform to go to the very basic principles of being able to "save money for a rainy day".

I also think politicians need more "hands on experience". Take the Mayor and City Council and host a one-day "Academy" to show why every bit of manpower is needed.

Also, I feel FDNY EMS should be some level of firefighters so they can also supplement staffing, the same way they do it in other major cities like Los Angeles, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, etc without it affecting apparatus staffing.

[nycemt326 6]

I recently found out that the New York City government will be recommended that 20 fire companies will be made into day time only companies and that they will be out of service during "night time" hours. Does any one know which companies will have their night time hours cut?

Most likely the slowest companies at night. Not sure what companies those are, but we will see shortly.

One thing that I don't understand is that the population of New York City is actually larger then it was in 1950 and it was continually growing in the 2000's so given that fact ,how can the city even justify taking fire companies out of service? Logically speaking the more people that a city has the higher the city's revenue source should be. New York's population according to the 2009 census bureau statistics had a population of 8,391,881 people which is highest population in New York City's history.

Low fires, lower number of fire related deaths. 73 were killed in fires in 2009. The city finds that justifiable in closing companies overnight.

[ny10570 745]

Population doesn't dictate fire load. In fact a growing population tends to reduce fire load. NYCs war years Detroit right now, fire duty exploded as people fled the city. Its because the two stats have no causal relationship. They are symptoms of bigger things. What does affect fires is infrastructure and NYCs is only improving.

As the population swells and middle class is replaced by the working poor FDNY will be much busier on the EMS side. CFR, entry, removal, extrication etc. Only two things have been consistently proven to save cardiac arrests, early defibrilation and quality CPR. FDNY excells at this when you have companies that embrace EMS.

Seth FDNY is extremely responsible with their budget. It is NYC that spends like a drunk in Vegas. During good years opperstional expansion asside their budget remains very stable. They decreased their facilities expenses with the upgrade of several older houses and consolidation of many single houses. Most of the Marine division expansion is funded with grant money. Nearly all their research projects and pilot programs are funded by grants and no free rides were handed out at the bargaining table. Every deal came with concessions.

You can't supplement Fire with EMS in NYC. Asside from all the union, contract, and legislative hurdles EMS has a much more severe staffing problem than fire.

[helicopper 1,050]

It is almost always impossible to "save" money in the government and roll money forward from one year to the next. Most governments that I'm aware of are required by law to have a "zero" balance when they close out the fiscal year so even if you were responsible during the good times, spent responsibly, and managed to come in under budget you wouldn't get to keep the surplus.

I also think the administration of the FDNY is about as responsible and judicious as they can be. Apparatus is still being replaced and they haven't proposed any radical layoffs (yet) to balance the budget. Closing firehouses - even just at night - probably isn't an easy decision but look around, it's happening everywhere.

I think call volume in NYC precludes the cross-training of EMS for fire-duty or vice-versa (notwithstanding the CFR program already in place). What do you do when you pull a couple of EMS units to serve as FD units and they're needed at for EMS work? Some systems may benefit from cross-training but I don't (IMHO) see NYC as one of them.

[helicopper 1,050]

MODERATOR NOTE: As expected this thread and the opinions generated have struck some nerves as some of our members are directly affected by such actions. Please consider that when posting your thoughts and be sensitive to your peers.

If you're from FDNY, take a deep breath. People are discussing things and it is not intended to be anything more than people sharing opinions and thoughts on the subject. Try not to take it personally.

Stay safe!

[Bnechis 3,961]

I honestly think this is yet another example of a department that has had decades of poor financial planning. When finances are good, it's spend spend spend, even on things that are not needed. When finances are bad it's cut cut cut.

Can you give any examples of the "decades of poor financial planning", I think they have a very good record. Their fleet replacement plan is one of the best of any large dept.

What items are not needed?

I also think politicians need more "hands on experience". Take the Mayor and City Council and host a one-day "Academy" to show why every bit of manpower is needed.

That would assume that the politicians just do not understand and thats why they are not providing the manpower. The real issue is they do not care. The are only concerned with keeping their job and that means keeping the voters happy.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It is almost always impossible to "save" money in the government and roll money forward from one year to the next. Most governments that I'm aware of are required by law to have a "zero" balance when they close out the fiscal year so even if you were responsible during the good times, spent responsibly, and managed to come in under budget you wouldn't get to keep the surplus.

Chris, I agree with one major and one minor exception. When times have been good the NYS conference of Mayors has convinced NYS to reduce the pension system payments (sometimes to 0%) but the local tax increases have not reflected that savings as the politicians have spent on pet projects, Then when times are bad and wall street is not pumping up the pension system the state raises the pension costs to cover the loss and the local politicians threaten to cut personnel to cover the loss.

The minor one is, during good times its hard to get capital projects like energy efficiency windows or other things that will save money. It is also the time to replace equipment that has high maintenance costs. While funds cannot be saved, money can be spent on items that will reduce operating costs (which is particularly needed in bad times).

[grumpyff 1,159]

Even when times were good, the politicians were crying they had no money for FD/PD/EMS. There maybe more people than in 1950, but more are on welfare today, and You don't pay taxes on welfare. For years NYC spent money like a drunken sailor on tons of projects, the High Line, pedestrian plazas in Times Square, Tweed Hall renovations,etc, and now that money really is an issue, the first place they look is emergency services.

One plan I heard for FD was a similar to a brown out policy, but based on sick leaves (companies short members), companies that would be out for training, etc.

[firepost 0]

Besides the residential population, I wonder what the population swells to during the day, PLUS at night with all the people that visit NYC and go to school in NYC.

I honestly think this is yet another example of a department that has had decades of poor financial planning. When finances are good, it's spend spend spend, even on things that are not needed. When finances are bad it's cut cut cut. The finance laws need major reform to go to the very basic principles of being able to "save money for a rainy day".

I also think politicians need more "hands on experience". Take the Mayor and City Council and host a one-day "Academy" to show why every bit of manpower is needed.

Also, I feel FDNY EMS should be some level of firefighters so they can also supplement staffing, the same way they do it in other major cities like Los Angeles, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, etc without it affecting apparatus staffing.

Seth that "Academy" for "politicians" isn't a bad idea and I know that some towns actually do it.As far as other cities EMS services go those cities that you mentioned each do things a little differently as far as their EMS manning goes.For example in Chicago we have 60 ALS ambulances and 15 BLS ambulances however the paramedics who are on the (ALS) ambulances usually stay on the ambulances. Our BLS ambulances are manned by firefighter emt's who can and do switch over from ambulance duty to fire fighting duty but not when assigned to an Ambulance. When assigned to an Ambulance in Chicago both Paramedics and firefighter/emt's only do ambulance work and don't do firefighting while working on the ambulances.To my understanding, in Los Angeles the ambulances are dispatched on fire alarms along with the suppression companies and at least some of their crews will go in to the fire building and do "fire duty". In Chicago we will dispatch an Ambulance as part of a RIT (Rapid Intervention Team) assignment and on all high rise still alarms however the ambulance crews will stand by, but not go inside the building to do fire duty.

Both Los Angeles City and Chicago do have ALS suppression companies however with at least one paramedic and one emt assigned to them on each shift. Chicago has over 50 ALS Engines and about nine or ten ALS Truck companies currently in service. Dallas only has about 2 or 3 ALS Engines in some outlying districts.

While New York City will dispatch an Engine company on certain life threatening emergencies they still don't dispatch Truck (Ladder) companies to EMS emergencies which is foolish as there really is no reason why a Ladder company shouldn't be dispatched to a serious EMS run if the nearest Engine in not available. I understand that the reason for that is that the Truck men are demanding more money for going on a "first responder run"

Edited December 9, 2010 by firepost

[Guest jcnyc]

My biggest issue is that the Parks dept has a 3 or 4 billion plus budget!

[JBE 328]

One of the things that I heard got brought up was that companies who went out for Annual Education day, or company medical exams on the day tour would remain closed for the night tour. There's been an uproar about these companies being shut down at night, but where is the uproar when upwards of 20 companies are taken out of service during the day?? Either for a few hours, or for the entire day tour. You rarely hear of any community board, or activist, or pi$$ed off city council member talking about this.

I've said this before, and I know my colleagues on the other side of the radio will probably flame the hell out of me for this. Could you shut certain companies down permanently and not make a dent in the level of service provided?? Yes. Do I want to see that happen?? Of course not. However, I would rather see companies get disbanded than seeing members get laid off.

From my end of the operation, it's going to make life a little more difficult when it hits the fan. It's going to present a challenge providing adequate coverage when there's a couple of multiples going. Something to consider, though, back in the 70's, you had second sections, Tactical Control Units, and a probably 35-40 more companies than you do today. The fire duty was through the roof and the city still shut down a ton of companies, and they were never reopened. I could give you unit numbers in all 5 boroughs of companies that were disbanded, and only one in Staten Island(E154) and one in Queens(E-294) is back.

Nobody likes to hear that saying "We have to do more with less". Unfortunately, it's a stark reality here. Two or three years ago was one of the busiest years in 30 plus years for just runs alone. We have been doing more with less for too long. It stinks, but we have to play the cards we're dealt.

Between November 11th and November 14th, the FDNY operated at 43 working fires, all hands or greater. There were at least 10 multiples in there. This is not including the 2 and 2 fires that they were able to hold. I have never seen it that busy in all my years in the job. It got to a point where I joked with my chief dispatcher that we were going to have Yonkers Engine 307 sitting outside of 93 Engine's quarters, and we would have an engine and a tiller from North Hudson sitting in Times Square. He didn't find it funny, but it could be a possiblity that Spin_the_Wheel and Elmont 7-ZERO-8 is sitting out in front of 132 Truck.

My one question to the guys out in the field, would it be feasible to refurb rigs and keep them as spares/reserves/or put them in slower houses as frontline rigs??

Hang on to your hats folks, it's gonna be a very bumpy ride. As always, y'all stay safe.

Oh yeah, and Seth, with all due respect. I highly doubt you're ever going to see fire fighters in NYC staffing a bus, unless it gets jammed down the throats of the UFA if the city threatens layoffs, etc. That, and no way the EMS unions will stand for it either. Poor financial planning?? I've seen at least six new firehouses built in the past ten years, with 2 new houses for the Marine companies and a couple of new EMS stations in the mix. Like someone said here earlier, a lot of the new goodies were purchased with grant money. They've invested OVER A BILLION in renovating/modernizing Fire and EMS communications.(Personal opinion, a good chunk of that was wasted) Different money from different budgets.

Edited December 9, 2010 by JBE

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I'd like to know where all the "activists" in the post 9/11 era went off too. You remember those people, "we're going to see to it that the FDNY gets what it needs in the future" The blah blah famous folk, the talking heads, the support from the news people. Where have they all gone now, when the FDNY is in it's hour of greatest need?

Oh yeah, and the Senate is poised to kill the Zadroga Bill today. That's the Bill that would have provided ongoing medical care money for the thousands of sick people that helped out at ground zero and got sick from it. The Republican Senators want their tax cuts for the billionaires passed first, before they'd even consider the Zadroga Bill. Nice huh?

[ny10570 745]

The only time I've seen the fire and EMS union get together was the joint statement they had categorically opposing the strategic plan to start ALS engines. The mention of a plan to consider looking at the feasibility of ALS engines got everyone in a tiff. Its going to take some serious pressure to get that moving.

CFR Truck companies isn't going to happen because fire go snowed with the CFR compensation the first time around. Only one member per tour gets the money yet they all get in on the extra work. If 3 cardiac arrests drop in one area during 12 hours (I've seen it happen) one engine company is going to be doing a lot of CPR and carrying. The EMS units get run around so much I rarely see the same CFR more than once a tour unless its the intox hustle in Manhattan on a warm weekend night. There's also the that CFRs are usually available when a CFR run comes in. The coverage gap isn't large enough to justify doubling the number of CFR units. To help cover the gap there is or maybe at this point there was a plan in the works to send the closest BLS or CFR including calls where ALS is more than 10 minutes away.

[firepost 0]

The only time I've seen the fire and EMS union get together was the joint statement they had categorically opposing the strategic plan to start ALS engines. The mention of a plan to consider looking at the feasibility of ALS engines got everyone in a tiff. Its going to take some serious pressure to get that moving.

CFR Truck companies isn't going to happen because fire go snowed with the CFR compensation the first time around. Only one member per tour gets the money yet they all get in on the extra work. If 3 cardiac arrests drop in one area during 12 hours (I've seen it happen) one engine company is going to be doing a lot of CPR and carrying. The EMS units get run around so much I rarely see the same CFR more than once a tour unless its the intox hustle in Manhattan on a warm weekend night. There's also the that CFRs are usually available when a CFR run comes in. The coverage gap isn't large enough to justify doubling the number of CFR units. To help cover the gap there is or maybe at this point there was a plan in the works to send the closest BLS or CFR including calls where ALS is more than 10 minutes away.

That is indeed a shame that there should have to keep otherwise available Ladder companies from responding to CFR runs because of this compensation issue which is not even an issue in most other cities as in most other cities they generally will switch off between Engine and Ladders going on CFR runs which helps to balance the work load as well. Of course in most other cities they don't offer compensation either as it is considered to be just part of the job.

In effect (despite the fact the New York City's EMS being "officially" part of the Fire Department)the EMS division might as well be a separate agency like it originally was before the so called merger in the mid 1990's.Since the ambulances in New York really don't run out of the fire stations and they are represented by a different union (not to mention the difference in pay) it seems that the so called "merger" was basically pointless.

Even though the trend has been to merge EMS departments into Fire Departments, there are some places like Boston Massachusetts and Austin Texas where the EMS departments are still separate agency's and it's working out just fine for both of those cities.

Edited December 9, 2010 by firepost

[ny10570 745]

EMS should have been spun off into a 3rd agency bit there was no leadership in place to push that. There were also other political motivations that pushed the FD to seek EMS. One of the better things about the job post merger is the FDs leadership. Staffing, training, equipment, and facilities have seen substantial improvements. A lot of people pine for good ol days but the majority of complaints stem from abuse by our bosses.

Truck and engine companies each have their solo runs. Its not like the Engines are running all tour while the truck sits there. Why shouldn't the members be compensated for additional training and responsibilities? The CFR program saves a ton of money since to match their response time to EMS runs you would need to shave over a minute from our average. That minute equals dozens of additional units.

Edited December 10, 2010 by ny10570