Proper Fire Department Staffing

[buff.boy 4]

I have some questions What are proper staffing levels for fire departments? Is there any uniformity to this or is by department, town, village or city? Does the size of the town village or city dictate how many firefighters? Who enforces the staffing levels? If these levels are not met what is the liabilty? Who is the liabilty on? If there is a department with 2 fire trucks, how many firefighters are required by law? What law? As a resident, how do a address it, as a firefighter how is it addressed? Is there different rules for a volunteer fire department and a paid staff fire department or a mixed bag of both paid and volunteer depts? My last and final question, Why are there so many fire departments with so many chiefs, commisioners, chiefs cars etc? Thanks for your help and info in advance

[Bnechis 3,961]

I have some questions What are proper staffing levels for fire departments? Is there any uniformity to this or is by department, town, village or city?

There are proper levels, but most depts. ignore the standards.

Does the size of the town village or city dictate how many firefighters?

Yes and no. The type/size of fire, size of the building, its construction, use and number/condition of occupants dictate the number of firefighters needed. a 2,000 sq ft house on fire is the same in a village as a city with the exception of how close exposures are and potential water supply issues (if not near hydrants).

Their is also a distance issue. If the Fire Dept. covers 1 square mile it will need fewer ff's than 100 sq. miles. This is because you will need the minimum # of firefighters at one end of the district in minutes, while an incident at the other end will require the same, so bigger areas require more stations & more ff's. Density also plays into it, because the more people the more calls and it’s common to have fire fighters tied up on one call, when another comes in.

Who enforces the staffing levels? If these levels are not met what is the liabilty? Who is the liabilty on?

The local community (too bad most do not understand what they have or what they should have). Also the insurance industry, by rating the dept and making the community pay more or less for insurance premiums.

Liability is on the City, Village or Fire District if the FD has advised them of the shortage. If they have not been advised it is also on the fire chief.

Court cases have been very minimal on this, but increasing.

If there is a department with 2 fire trucks, how many firefighters are required by law? What law?

The only law requires if personnel go into a hazardous environment (like a fire) they a minimum of 2 interior certified firefighters to go inside, with 2 interior certified firefighters to stay outside (as a backup team), 1 pump operator and 1 Incident commander (to run the fire). That’s 6 regardless of the number of trucks.

There are insurance standards that expect a minimum of 2 engines and 1 ladder or rescue (based on size of the building) and 1 chief, with a minimum of 4 on each of the 3 rigs (total 13) if they are coming from a manned station and 12 per rig (total 36) if coming from an un-manned station.

Failure to meet this standard means every property in the district pays more in insurance premiums.

As a resident, how do a address it, as a firefighter how is it addressed?

If the FD is a city or village dept. Then it’s thru the mayor’s office (or some cases the city manager). In town FD's they are generally part of a fire district and you would need to go to the Board of Commissioners of the Fire District. For career ff's thru the union or the above. for volunteers the above (but its rare).

Is there different rules for a volunteer fire department and a paid staff fire department or a mixed bag of both paid and volunteer depts..?

NYS has much stricter requirements for career staffing than volunteers for training.

My last and final question, Why are there so many fire departments with so many chiefs, commisioners, chiefs cars etc? Thanks for your help and info in advance

Tradition. Outside of the north eastern US. most areas run some form of regional service without all the duplication.

[buff.boy 4]

There are proper levels, but most depts. ignore the standards.

Yes and no. The type/size of fire, size of the building, its construction, use and number/condition of occupants dictate the number of firefighters needed. a 2,000 sq ft house on fire is the same in a village as a city with the exception of how close exposures are and potential water supply issues (if not near hydrants).

Their is also a distance issue. If the Fire Dept. covers 1 square mile it will need fewer ff's than 100 sq. miles. This is because you will need the minimum # of firefighters at one end of the district in minutes, while an incident at the other end will require the same, so bigger areas require more stations & more ff's. Density also plays into it, because the more people the more calls and it’s common to have fire fighters tied up on one call, when another comes in.

The local community (too bad most do not understand what they have or what they should have). Also the insurance industry, by rating the dept and making the community pay more or less for insurance premiums.

Liability is on the City, Village or Fire District if the FD has advised them of the shortage. If they have not been advised it is also on the fire chief.

Court cases have been very minimal on this, but increasing.

The only law requires if personnel go into a hazardous environment (like a fire) they a minimum of 2 interior certified firefighters to go inside, with 2 interior certified firefighters to stay outside (as a backup team), 1 pump operator and 1 Incident commander (to run the fire). That’s 6 regardless of the number of trucks.

There are insurance standards that expect a minimum of 2 engines and 1 ladder or rescue (based on size of the building) and 1 chief, with a minimum of 4 on each of the 3 rigs (total 13) if they are coming from a manned station and 12 per rig (total 36) if coming from an un-manned station.

Failure to meet this standard means every property in the district pays more in insurance premiums.

If the FD is a city or village dept. Then it’s thru the mayor’s office (or some cases the city manager). In town FD's they are generally part of a fire district and you would need to go to the Board of Commissioners of the Fire District. For career ff's thru the union or the above. for volunteers the above (but its rare).

NYS has much stricter requirements for career staffing than volunteers for training.

Tradition. Outside of the north eastern US. most areas run some form of regional service without all the duplication.

Thank you for responding Bneiches

So in a nut shell department heads, towns, villages, cities ignore standards and get away with it???? Is that legal. Are these standards laws??

How many fire fighters are then needed in a 1 square mile area or a 2 square mile area? Is that the guidance or is it the size of the houses and how many?

Who advises the fire departments on the shorages? Again are these standards enforced by anyone?

Does my insurance company rate the department or is there a system that is used??

If liabilty is on the chief, what can happen to him/her if my house burns down due to a lack firefighters that respond in minutes as you stated?

So you are saying that if there is a fire call a the department comes from a manned station 12 or 13 need to respond?? If yes, how in the world do fire departments only have 1 or 2 firefighters on the fire truck??

Are there other types of hazardous enviorments that may exist that would require the 6 firefighters you say?

My biggest question is then this, if there is a shortage of firefighters and these fire departments are respomding not according to these standards you say, why are the towns cities and villages laying them off???

Who has the voice and say in this.

[sfrd18 360]

There are proper levels, but most depts. ignore the standards.

Yes and no. The type/size of fire, size of the building, its construction, use and number/condition of occupants dictate the number of firefighters needed. a 2,000 sq ft house on fire is the same in a village as a city with the exception of how close exposures are and potential water supply issues (if not near hydrants).

Their is also a distance issue. If the Fire Dept. covers 1 square mile it will need fewer ff's than 100 sq. miles. This is because you will need the minimum # of firefighters at one end of the district in minutes, while an incident at the other end will require the same, so bigger areas require more stations & more ff's. Density also plays into it, because the more people the more calls and it’s common to have fire fighters tied up on one call, when another comes in.

The local community (too bad most do not understand what they have or what they should have). Also the insurance industry, by rating the dept and making the community pay more or less for insurance premiums.

Liability is on the City, Village or Fire District if the FD has advised them of the shortage. If they have not been advised it is also on the fire chief.

Court cases have been very minimal on this, but increasing.

The only law requires if personnel go into a hazardous environment (like a fire) they a minimum of 2 interior certified firefighters to go inside, with 2 interior certified firefighters to stay outside (as a backup team), 1 pump operator and 1 Incident commander (to run the fire). That’s 6 regardless of the number of trucks.

There are insurance standards that expect a minimum of 2 engines and 1 ladder or rescue (based on size of the building) and 1 chief, with a minimum of 4 on each of the 3 rigs (total 13) if they are coming from a manned station and 12 per rig (total 36) if coming from an un-manned station.

Failure to meet this standard means every property in the district pays more in insurance premiums.

If the FD is a city or village dept. Then it’s thru the mayor’s office (or some cases the city manager). In town FD's they are generally part of a fire district and you would need to go to the Board of Commissioners of the Fire District. For career ff's thru the union or the above. for volunteers the above (but its rare).

NYS has much stricter requirements for career staffing than volunteers for training.

Tradition. Outside of the north eastern US. most areas run some form of regional service without all the duplication.

Very well explained Bnechis.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So in a nut shell department heads, towns, villages, cities ignore standards and get away with it???? Is that legal. Are these standards laws??

Yes, every day. Yes its legal (as long as they do not send firefighters into a hazardous atmospher until they meet the 2in 2 out standard). 2in 2out is law, otherwise the standards can be used in civil court, but someone then actually has to sue.

How many fire fighters are then needed in a 1 square mile area or a 2 square mile area? Is that the guidance or is it the size of the houses and how many?

The same are needed, the ideal is an engine company (with a minimum of 3 firefighters and 1 officer) is stationed within 1.5 miles of all structures in its 1st due area, a ladder or rescue within 2.5 miles. In places with multiple depts. each needs to meet the minimum, so 2 depts. next to each other, with each covering 1 square miles requires 2 stations, 4 engines (2 each), 2 ladders (1 each), 2 spare engines and 2 spare ladders and 26 on-duty ff's(13 each) or 72 responding on-call ff's (36 per dept.). if only 1 dept covers the same are hey need 1/2....1 house, 2 engines, 1 ladder, 1 spare engine, 1 spare ladder and 13 on-duty ff's or 36 responding on-call ff's.

Who advises the fire departments on the shorages? Again are these standards enforced by anyone?

43,000 dept in the country are evaluated by ISO (Insurance service Office) every 10 - 15 years and survey's them annually. They provide the chief and the highest ranking community public official (mayor, chairman of the board of fire commissioners, city manager, etc.) with the info. Also why should anyone need to inform the depts.? How could they not know?

Does my insurance company rate the department or is there a system that is used??

ISO (Insurance service Office) rates the FD and sells the info to all the insurance companies in the state.

If liabilty is on the chief, what can happen to him/her if my house burns down due to a lack firefighters that respond in minutes as you stated?

If the property owner or his insurance co. wants to sue for damages they can. More likely the loss of someone in the structure or even an injured or LODD of a responder.

So you are saying that if there is a fire call a the department comes from a manned station 12 or 13 need to respond?? If yes, how in the world do fire departments only have 1 or 2 firefighters on the fire truck??

They, either need on-call responders (volunteers and recalled off duty career) or lots of trucks. Or they roll the dice and hope for the best. And it does not have to be from 1 station, just thas what is needed to arrive.

Are there other types of hazardous enviorments that may exist that would require the 6 firefighters you say?

Carbon Monoxide, Natural Gas leaks are both very common, but any Hazardous material release and confined space entry.

My biggest question is then this, if there is a shortage of firefighters and these fire departments are respomding not according to these standards you say, why are the towns cities and villages laying them off???

Because most tax payers believe they will never need the FD and all the politicians hear is LOWER MY TAXES.

Who has the voice and say in this.

The Volunteers

The Union

The Chief

The Community

You