Officer qualifications

[Guest]

Touchy subject in the Fire Service. Todays officers should be well trained in all facets of the service. In the Career end, you see college being a requirement now, and completing various officer classes prior to taking exams. Is the volunteer end stayin with the times? The officer in the 2000's should be well rounded, able to handle all aspects. The popularity contest should be over now. Because when we do our voting on the popular guy, or the famous term" it's his/her turn". The wrong person is being placed into a position that has great responsibilty. The new era officer, should have FFI and FFII, CFR at the least for EMS, Haz Mat ops, evoc, Intro FOI, FO I as a Capt. etc.

Engine company- Pump Ops

Rescue Company- Rescue Tech/Avet/Rope rescue/

Ladder Company- Ladder ops/Rescue Tech/Rope rescue

With the fire service the way it is we should be progressing not taking steps back. I am totally for Officer qualifications to run for a position starting at Lieutenat level. In my particular engine company, to run for Chief Driver, you have to have Pump Ops., driver for at least a year, and to run for Lieut. and above you must be a driver prior. I see officers everywhere in the volunteer fire service, serving as Captain of a company and not ever stepping into the drivers seat. Shouldn't a new driver be able to ask there officer a question and get a answer?

Hopefully in the near future the Volunteer service will step into gear and realize that training and experience should be the #1 priority not popularity. To do the job, you need to know the job!!

[CFD320 35]

I have commented on similar posts to this in the past.

I whole heartedly agree that training is a very important part of being a successful firefighter/officer. I do not, however; agree that to be a line officer being a driver/pump operator is essential. Take a look at large career departments, to be promoted to officer completion of Chauffer school is not a requirement. I know a very talented firefighter who happens to be an officer that does not have the conceptual space awareness to handle a vehicle the size of a fire engine. That does not make him any less of an officer or firefighter. If a new driver has a question he can ask the engineer or the asst. engineer. If a new firefighter has a tactics question he should ask his captain and not the engineer. The real problem is we qualify too many drivers who dint really understand what they are doing. "OK, you can draft, pump and drive" should not be enough to be an apparatus operator, conceptual understanding about what is actually happening is more important that being able to charge a line. I recently asked an apparatus operator a simple hydraulics question and that person was completely dumbfounded....That is a problem.

Now, the laundry list of classes you think are necessary for the "new era" officer is great! But, they must add up to like 750 hours of classes. That is almost half a year of full time employment, a huge time commitment. Most people with a mortgage or rent living in Westchester have a very difficult time putting that kind of time into the volunteer fire service (not even responding to alarms).

On top of all of that you give me a guy with all of that training; I can give you 5 with common sense and years of experience that are better/equal firefighters/officers. Going to a classes where attendance is the sole requirement for credit are not always productive. Plus, in departments like ours where if you are unlucky you might not see a "real" fire for 5-6 years, a guy with a ton of classes might get himself or his team into trouble. He may really believe he knows what he is doing and underestimates a situation, which can be deadly.

In all fairness, having a college degree never helped me too much being a firefighter. Common scene has been much more valuable than being able to suffer through Differential Equations at 8am. I think career departments use that requirement to narrow the field of candidates, to people who have the work ethic to complete some level of post secondary education. I'm sure there are equal amounts of top notch firefighters with just high school as there are with college.

Please don’t misunderstand me, training classes are great. They are just not the end-all be-all.

[x635 4,066]

I agree with many of the excellent points made here.

One of the most important qualifications should be experience. Because training is great, but being able to apply that training is where the real knowledge comes in.

Also, training and qualifications should be exactly the same between volunteers and career firefighters. There should be no reason for a difference, and maybe it should be a testing-ranking process for volunteer officers as well.

I hate the "Its his/her turn" argument!

Another problem....whole 'nother topic though-I think some departments have WAY too many officers for anyone to get real command experience, and also too many officers leads to confusions and several other issues.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Somewhere in the thread I read that Eng Co officers need pump op's. While it's a good idea, wouldn't it be better if ALL drivers have the class since they're the ones that will most often be on the pump panel?

Officers should know (among other things) the entire operations of the vehicle assigned since he or she will likely train others on the vehicle.

[Remember585 815]

A good officer has a little of it all.

Common sense, training, education, patience, and the ability to think on the fly.

320, While I see your point and agree with some of it, I also don't agree with a portion of it. For one, in a Department where getting the rig out is your responsibility, being an Officer who can't do that is virtually useless if the apparatus sits in quarters. You have nothing to lead if it doesn't get out of the building.

Second, all of that training doesn't even approach the 750 hour mark. More importantly, if someone is going to lead me or any of my colleagues into a dangerous situation, they better have the knowledge to do it. And no matter what you think, common sense will not put out a fire, cut someone out of a wreck, or mitigate a haz-mat situation. This is why there are national standards for fire officers. The days of thinking a good firefighter will make a good officer are dead. We, as officers, must be trained to handle whatever it is we may be responding to. We don't need to be specialists in every field, but we must have some form of documented training to be our basis for commanding a scene. If you were an IC, and you were dealing with a house fire and something went tragically wrong, do you think the prosecution coming after you is going to ignore the absense of documented training in your portfolio? I highly doubt it. I spent 40 hours at the Fire Academy last year learning how to be a better teacher, and one thing that was constantly drilled into our heads was the importance of documentation, and the value of having an education in what we do. If we choose to be naive and say "common sense will prevail," we're not just cheating ourselves, but those we work with and those we are working for. Training in emergency services is an on-going process that should only end when we move on to the Fire Department in the sky. Not training to be better leaders is only cheating our members of great leadership. Look no further then our own Department, the best leaders we've had are those who educated themselves.

Oh, and the whole "it's his turn" thing is like a bad case of acne, no matter how much we don't want it - it always seems to pop-up again and again.

[Guest]

I totally agree with truck6018, that the officer should know the equipment he is ultimately in charge of. In response to cfd320, the classes that I have outlines do not take 750 hrs. to complete. The most time consuming ones would be FFI/FFII, the other classes are around 24 hrs. a piece. I believe he/she who wants to be a successful/confident officer should go above and beyond and gain the knowledge that these classes are giving you. A lot of the guys I know that are in the fire service are challenging themsleves and taking additional classes, not just the minimum. These are the ones that will gain the knowledge that obviously others don't think they need, or think they already have. I totally agree that experience has a great factor on how a officer will handle his job, but training/knowledge also has a factor. How can you order someone that is a EMT how to treat a patient, or how can you command a Haz-Mat without having the training classes yourself. Under OSHA/NFPA the member who has the highest training in Haz-Mat is ultimately in charge and liable at an incident. I have learned in my 14yrs in the fire service that ongoing training is the way to go, how are you suppose to keep with the times and standards if you don't them. Within recent months I have noticed ex-officers of my dept. that have failed to properly handle a situation because they are stuck with the old ways. If you have the heart to be a fireifghter why not, have the heart and make the service better and come to the times, and meet the standards that have been adopted to enhance the service. The point I am making is that to be a officer you should be taking classes to stay up to speed, and also have the experiece. With this combination a great officer can be made. You shouldn't just throw people into a position just because they want to be an officer, let them earn it. To be an officer at least meet some kind of training requirements, rather then just voting for someone just because. I can;t see an officer riding as the officer on a particular rig and not knowing how it functions.

[CFD320 35]

Please don’t misunderstand what I am saying! My point is that attending Training classes can be very useful, but they do not automatically equate into one being a better officer or firefighter. Reading the slides off a PowerPoint is not teaching, and for the most part non-productive. Possibly I have been unlucky, but with all the classes I have taken only three of my instructors were worth a hoot. How many people who took AVET think of using a biel tool before breaking out a Hurst tool??

As for an attorney going after an IC that didn’t have a slew of classes......If the IC had an attorney worth half his salt, he would bring up a state official and have them truthfully admit that simple attendance at most courses is considered "successful completion".

As far as the officer/driver issue.....Why are there some drivers at the "Northside Powerhouse" that do not drive T10? Could it be that some people are just not comfortable driving something that size? Does that make them any less instrumental in the success of your company? Less of an officer?

I think the candidate that won our last chiefs election (who is doing a great job) had a nice folder full of classes. Does that automatically mean that he is doing a better job than the candidate he defeated would be doing? Education is important but it only takes one so far. I have a great uncle with a master’s degree from MIT; I wouldn’t trust him to borrow my car. He is one of the most intelligent and well educated people I know, but he has no every day common sense. People applying common sense have been putting out fire for thousands of years. In these times a proper blend of education and common sense is key, and that blend is different for every person.

[ajsbear 11]

I thnk on eof the main points, it should not be a popularity contest to be voted as an officer. All too many times it is. Once elected or appointed to a Lt. position that officer should get the required training if he/she wants to continue as an officer. In addition communication skills which is something the FTC does not do should be a big consideration. I've seen officers who many would consider socially retarded because they cannot hold a conversation and have no clue how to get people to follow. In addition officers should have at least 5 years in the department before becoming an officer.

[Remember585 815]

No Officer of ours is unable to drive Tanker 10. Those that drive E119 and not T10 are few, and are guys whom have yet to approach anyone about driving it, haven't completed the training period on E119, or haven't found the time to drive T10. If they choose not to drive the Tanker that's their perogative, but being only "half-qualified" on our rigs won't suffice to be elected an officer, our By-Laws state that we must be qualified on the Company's apparatus to take an elected position.

Don't get me wrong, I also feel common sense is imperative. But common sense would tell you that if you desire to lead people then you should get off your a** and learn what you can to better yourself. LEAD BY EXAMPLE!!! Take a look around, a leader who does nothing to improve themself only leads a company of unmotivated people. A leader is only as good as those he leads - and a Department/Company only reflects its leadership.

[Guest]

Those who don't feel Officer Training is vital and take offense when you talk about it are those whom are Officers and aren't trained properly.

Bottom line, if you don't agree or become sensitive about it, you obviously don't have what it takes.

[Guest]

I feel that an officer needs to have the respect of his men first and foremost. There has been officers that i have served under, and they had no respect from the other member and other officers. The reason being that they either had not treated the members like humans. They felt they were bigger then them.

I have found don't ever ask someone to do something that you wouldn't do yourself, and most times have done.

MOST IMPORTANT ROLE IN AN OFFICER ---

RESPECT

[CFD320 35]

Those who don't feel Officer Training is vital and take offense when you talk about it are those whom are Officers and aren't trained properly.

Bottom line, if you don't agree or become sensitive about it, you obviously don't have what it takes.

Im quite sure I "have what it takes". I am not being sensitive or even disagreeing that training is important. All im saying is that training is not the end all be all, there are other things involved with being a sucessful leader as other posts have illuded to. Why must there always be that one Ahole that turns good threads into personal attacks? You must be tight with my man Ed Knowsall.

585: I think it's great that all 119 officers must be drivers, but what if a guy like DMA wasn't comfortable driving? Would that mean he doesn't have the tools to be a good officer? Just playing devils advocate here.

[Guest]

I guess you haven't noticed DMA is qualified and you have to take into consideration that he has only been a driver for approx. 8 months now. He may come into a situation where he isn't comfortable, but like the rest of our drivers, the present officers know the job will be done. Oh, and also at the point where he is uncomfortable he can come to an officer, and the officer can work with him.

AHHHHH, THATS WHY THE OFFICER SHOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH HIS RIG, SO HE CAN ASSIST WHEN NEED BE!!!

[CFD320 35]

Yes I know DMA is qualified, my point is what if he didnt want to drive, would that make him an unfit officer?

And Im done with this one, its like beating my head against a brick wall.

[Remember585 815]

I made no personal attacks - sorry if you took it the wrong way.

Like I said, and you are missing, it takes more then training to be a good officer. But without it, or any of the components I mentioned, an Officer won't be able to hack it. And yes, you could cut it, but you had all of the components. I know personally that you spent time reading many books, and getting info from others - a job well done.

But, you know just as well as I do that there are people out there who have no right wearing that white helmet / shield.

[Guest]

Hey, I have to agree with remember585. We have present officers in dept, not only ours, just to fill the void. They may think there an excellent officer, but I beg to differ..18-47 ring a bell....Come on now, we all know who carries the weight in our particular dept. WE obviously know who are the good officers, and officers to be, thats why us buffs are discussing this topic.

Nothing for nothing but theres only 2 engines right!!! You get what I'm sayin!!

[SteveOFD 176]

To show how far Westchester Co. is behind the times we only have to look to our neighbor's to the North. Check out the county-wide requirements for Fire Officer at www.pcbes.org/announcement.htm

[TRUCK6018 50]

An individual may be a good leader if he's not qualified on a vehicle. If we had all leaders that aren't qualified, who's going to train?

A company level officer should have an all around knowledge of the apparatus, period. Who's the pump op going to go to when there's a problem with the vehicle? The officers are responsible for the training.

Even if the officer doesn't drive it for what ever reason, they are not going to know first hand how the vehicle handles. So how can he train others?

Todays fire service is very litigious. We need to wake up and get with the program an get these people the state training. It holds up alot better in court that way.

[LCFD994 8]

I know here in Putnam there is "Standard" training requirements, County Wide, to become an Interior Firefighter, as well as an Officer. Most are in addition to what a department requires as well.

Dont know if its the perfect system or set up but it seems to work well...

check them out at http://www.pcbes.org

[Guest]

When is Westchester going to adopt these? I know Somers has made the requirments. Anyone else?