JFLYNN

Does anyone remember the Cessna going down off the Yonkers shoreline in the winter a few years back? I was a Captain working on the Rescue that day. We watched the two guys through binoculars doing the backstroke in the middle of the Hudson and praying that FDNY / NYPD Coast Guard or somebody would arrive before they went under. It took a good 15 minutes after the plane went in before a NYPD chopper and a Coast Guard chopper with hoists saved the day. About another 20-30 minutes later the cavalry showed up- Multi-agencies boats from all over the place (and a jet ski, but that's a story for another day) but it was all over by then. So, it is my belief that, had this occured a few miles North of where it did, it is very likely that there would have been fatalities among any elderly, very young, or those with medical problems who were on board the aircraft due to hypothermia or drowning. Minutes mattered yesterday and, assuming this happened off the Yonkers shoreline yesterday, it would have been many more minutes, maybe even 30-45 minutes more before enough resources arrived to remove all the passengers and crew.

AHA! DING DING...Are you saying we're all part of the problem Bob? (or most of us at least?) What should we do? Look in the mirror? Nah, let's just pressure our leaders to bring home the bacon, complain that everyone else is getting more than us and fight for our share...then "they" can just print more money, or whatever, and let our kids figure this mess out...right?

***I should have typed "can" rather than "can't"

Wow! What a statement!! Well, I can't tell you that "we all" don't know what you have alleged... Maybe you should be more specific when you make such allegations, i.e. names or places... And please speak only for yourself, not "all" of us...

That's the whole point Chris...while I agree with many points that have been made on this topic regarding scene safety, etc., and also that many points have been made regarding egos, arrogance, rudeness and power issues on BOTH sides of the fence. However, on the Fire / EMS side, I believe we are sometimes too reactive to a Trooper or Police Officer who is on scene or who arrives on scene and attempts to do what he is trained to do- take control. Sometimes (not normally), this Trooper or Officer may not be so tactful...so what? Get over it and qtip...It's not about your hurt feelings...As Professionals we must become detached from our emotions while at the scene- if anyone, whether Law Enforcement, EMS, Tow Truck Operator, bystander, etc. is rude to us, or attempts to give us innappropriate or unlawful orders- JUST IGNORE THEM...don't escalate the situation...believe me I am a master at smiling at an excited Police Officer who is barking orders at me and just continuing to do my job and speaking calmly...I wasn't always this way...the first few times I was treated shabbily by Law Enforcement at the scene, I let my emotions show, and / or argued with them. This quickly becomes a lose / lose for all involved. Very, very, very rarely will law enforcement physically force you to move an apparatus or stop you from putting it where you want it, nor will they physically restrain you from performing the extrication / disentanglement/ firefighting/ EMS the way you see fit. If the PD is excited or pissed off or on a power trip and is yelling at you, just do your job and ignore them until they either go away or calm down enough to have a reasonable discussion.

I agree Chris...these war stories are not productive...may I suggest that we all just qtip?

Spyda, Thanks for making me feel old...you may have been spoiled hanging around a certain firehouse in your younger years...whatever happens with your career, be prepared to be a bit dissilusioned...stay in school and keep your options open. I'm sure your Dad told you that already though. And most importantly, Spyda...QTIP!!!

Tip- don't start sentences with "I'm sorry" unless you really are sorry... Regarding your age, the point here is that it would be very rare indeed for a 21-24 year old volunteer firefighter to have the "training and knowledge", or experience, to be trusted by a Trooper (or anyone in emergency services, i.e. me) to be credible and competent as the Officer in charge of anything...if you are the exception to the rule, good for you, but you will have to accept the fact that others won't initially see it that way and you will need to work harder to prove yourself. It may also be very helpful to you if you remember to qtip.

How did you witness it with your ears????

Well said Chris...there seem to be too many egos involved here...remember, qtip, this is business not personal guys...the Troopers have a job to do, a big part of which is to keep traffic flowing. There are many reasons why it is critically important for society to keep traffic flowing on major roadways. Maybe shutting down the Thruway "for as long as necessary" may cause traffic delays which are unseen to you but result in causing deaths or injuries or major economic damage elsewhere. Stage the apparatus appropriately for scene safety. Close the road completely when absolutely necessary only. Get picked up and on your way as soon as you safely are able to do so. Most importantly, cops and firemen out there, don't get so hung up on who is in charge...talk to each other and try to smile when you do so...explain your perspective and try to understand the other agency's perspective...say please and thank you...you might be surprised how it all works out P.S. I noticed that one of the previous posters who had a problem with NYSP when he was the "fire officer in charge" listed his age as 21-24 years old...the reality of this situation is that you need to accept the fact due to your age you are going to have a credibility problem with most Police Officers / Troopers...your people skills are going to need to be extra special if you are going to get your way in these type situations...maybe the bigger question should be, how is a 21-24 year old the Officer in Charge at an accident on a major roadway anyway?

I think you should Private Message R1Smokeater with this question. I am sure he will be a big help. He is a real salty veteran now but once upon a time he was just like you. Good luck and stay safe. P.S. Please give him my regards and tell him that I would have preferred Luke Skywalker or at least Obi-Wan-Kenobi.

I believe this is what is often referred to as a "dubious distinction"...or is it the ultimate revenge?? Thanks guys... I guess...haha... qtip

Devil Dog, I'm surprised at you...you "read them the riot act"...what does that mean? You tell your members that "fraud" (your words) will not be tolerated, but then you tolerate it?? I actually think that this whole LOSAP thing in NYS will help to speed the day when we will see more career departments / personnel. qtip

First of all, Semper Fi, and a big hoorah to you...I am honored to discuss this with a former United States Marine. I hold the Marines in the highest regard. Thank you for your service. Your post is one of the best I have ever had the pleasure of reading on this site, although I disagree with some of it. Bnechis beat me to it in his response regarding some of your points. I won't quibble on here about some other minor issues which I would disagree with...maybe one day over a beer though. I am quite familiar with volunteer departments in this area, having lived in areas served by volunteers, including Hastings for many years, and currently now in Ossining. I also taught many volunteers as an adjunct NYS Fire Instructor, although I stopped doing that a number of years ago, primarily out of frustration with many (not all) of the volunteers and the system which generally just passes people who show up right through, regardless of whether they have mastered the particular skill being taught. As I have mentioned many times before though, this is not personal, it's business. I know many volunteer firefighters and the large majority of them in my opinion are good, hardworking, family people with good intentions. Your department seems to me to be completely out of the norm for volunteer departments, probably in large measure to yourself. So, good for you and another hoorah. As Bnechis mentioned, and I could go on and on, there are many hidden costs of a volunteer department...your Poughkeepsie example is flawed...you only compare your own department (seemingly an excellent, cost efficient volunteer department) to one specific career department (of which I know little) and you don't factor in consolidation or regionalization of a larger area and numerous departments. You also leave out many hidden costs of a volunteer department such as higher insurance premiums, other tax breaks you haven't mentioned, duplication of apparatus, buildings and equipment, etc. I'm doing this quickly and a little sloppily just to try to make the point...with time I'm certain these numbers could all be laid out and you would be astonished, particularly at the numbers here in Westchester. I'll leave that to Bnechis though, that seems to be his specialty. The above doesn't even take into consideration operational issues, such as poor response times, particularly with EMS, and poorly trained people operating at fires and emergencies. It has been a breath of fresh air discussing this with you. It's a darn shame that more people on this site are not able to discuss and debate ideas and issues without becoming personally offended and then, rather than present a valid argument, going on the attack in a personal way. It is obvious that you will not need this advice, but to many of the rest of you out there....qtip...

OK, I'll elaborate a bit. First of all, perhaps we can agree that the yardstick for measuring the effectiveness of a Fire Department would be the average response time for an adequate number of fully trained, physically fit personell with proper equipment to arrive on the scene, and doing this all as cost effectively as possible. My feeling is that this all can be improved in any department (career or volunteer), but particularly with volunteer departments in Westchester County. The changes I hope to see, and I believe I will see, will come a little bit at a time, over many years, in both career and volunteer departments. My voice is but one small piece in the puzzle in trying to accomplish this. I believe that ultimately regionalization and consolidation and the adddition of more career staff in many, not all, locations in Westchester County is the answer. However, to show conclusively that my theory is true, it must first be shown what the true cost of a volunteer department is, and also the true differences in response times, training levels, and services provided between career vs. volunteer departments. You know nothing about my volunteer service, and you probably never will. I prefer to do my volunteer service without publicizing it nor asking for any accolades or credit. So, how can you say that it doesn't hold a light to the commitment required to field a viable volunteer fire service? BTW, I would question the word "viable" in many departments anyway. And remember, I question the whole notion of whether someone who receives substantial benefits for his or her service is morally (or legally in the case of taxes) justified in calling himself a "volunteer" I will tell you this, though...both my volunteer service and the service of most volunteer Firefighters pale in comparison to many, many humble, charitable selfless volunteers such as those who volunteer for Hospice, Red Cross, Salvation Army, Pediatric Cancer, Veterans services, etc., etc., and these people ask for nothing in return. As far as career departments opening their books, believe me, they are wide open, for you or anyone who wishes to take a look. This is a matter of law- we are subject to full public scrutiny, as opposed to the books of most volunteer departments. I would say that anecdotally, most volunteer Firefighters I have seen are in poor physical condition. However, the main point here is cost. Firefighters, career or volunteer, should have access to physical fitness facilities and insurance, however with consolidation and regionalization and the addition of career staff where appropriate, these expenses could be significantly reduced and measures could be put in place to hold all firefighters accountable for maintaining a certain minimum physical fitness level in return for these benefits. Again, if we had regionalization / consolidation, there would be far less Chiefs and far fewer departments and more efficient training and these "training" expenses would be significantly reduced. This is exactly my point. First of all, do the people who donate to the volunteer department for non-firematic expenses know that their money does not pay for the fire truck but goes for "non-firematic" expenses (perks)? Do you clearly advertise this? Maybe 40 Grand isn't much to you, but the 10 bucks you just got from the little old lady is a lot to her, and I'm sure many people who donate to volunteer departments, if they knew where the money really goes, would choose to spend their charitable funds elsewhere. Next, this whole argument is the fallacy that is constantly put forth by FASNY and which hurts career Firefighters severely. I don't believe your figures at all. These are scare tactics. A regionalized career or combo department, when you factor in all the direct and indirect costs of all the volunteer departments in that region, would very likely be less expensive (lower taxes, lower insurance premiums, no donations required) and provide a better service. This department could also provide critical first responder EMS services- which is sorely needed in most places in Westchester County. I responded to the open books comment above. So, if none of you do it for the "perks", why not just give them up? Maybe that 40 Grand you raised last year from donations could go towards building a nice playground, ot to a a Disabled Veteran's charity? Maybe the tax money from the NYS tax breaks you receive and are subsidized by all NYS taxpayers, including in my City, could be used to hire more career staff (or in our case, rehire some laid off Firefighters). Same with the LOSAP money. I hope you feel that my comments have been constructive. I believe my friend Bnechis would be able to provide more specific info to further elucidate my points above, such as how many total apparatus, vehicles and fire department facilities we have in Westchester County, both career and volunteer, and how many we would need with a regionalized ddepartment and the resultant savings. Maybe he also has info. and numbers regarding the total cost to the State of the various tax breaks received by volunteer departments and the LOSAP program, etc., etc. He is much smarter than I am. Of course, I am not naive. These changes will happen slowly, if at all, but as a previous poster mentioned, progressive minds dream. You are incorrect in stating that I am trying to achieve resentment and animosity. That is not the case at all. However, I have certainly felt those emotions directed at me on this forum, and it doesn't feel very good, so I'm truly sorry that you and others feel this way. I try my best to treat people respectfully, and make a positive difference in the world. I will plead guilty to being an intense, strong willed person who loves the fire service in general and my own department in particular. I like to debate issues, and try to get others (and myself) to think "out of the box" and maybe look at things differently than they have been. I am fully aware that this can make people uncomfortable and defensive, which is why I always end my posts, with, you guessed it, qtip...

My compliments on a well reasoned, constructive and respectful post.

I don't recall making comments about your Chiefs car, so why don't you find the thread you speak of ? I do have a "take home" car, but it's not an Impala, nor black, so I guess you really don't have your facts straight... My current position requires me to bring my car home, and able to respond to Yonkers for multiple alarms, which happens frequently. Maybe you should suggest to the Mayor that I take a cab in the future. In my posts, I usually ask questions or make factual statements. Never personal attacks. Your personal attack seems to indicate that you are trying to deflect attention away from the questions I have asked. I'm not surprised at such a tactic at all. Qtip

Were you referring to me as anti- volunteer? I would disagree. It's ironic that I just noticed this post now as I am just about to head out the door for one of several volunteer activities that I am involved in. I receive no compensation of any kind, i.e. my services don't cost anybody anything. If you can say the same, then kudos to you, you are a true volunteer. Although I would agree with you that I am a "pot stirrer", at times, I would point out that my attempts to "stir the pot" are made with the best intentions. I am just trying to get at the truth...what is the total cost of fire protection in various communities and what service is being provided? Once we know this, we can have a more educated, objective discussion about maybe making some positive changes. Qtip

Not sure what you mean by this but Yonkers doesn't try to "send" New Rochelle, or any other department anywhere.

Greg you already know how highly I think of you but I'll put it on here anyway...hang in there brother, it's a crappy time right now but guys like you will always land on their feet, rise to the top, blah, blah,blah, oh forget it you already heard all this from me and I'll talk to you soon. Oh yeah, good job today...you're not gonna ask for a medal or anything are you? I hope not cause they cut that line totally out of our budget and we're all out of medals..

Wow, how many other volunteer departments get this benefit? How much does this cost the district? Hey, I was just curious...all of my volunteer Firefighter brothers...could you please post a reply detailing any benefits you receive as a result of your volunteer FD service, i.e. pensions, insurance, gym membership, free gas, vacations (i.e. conventions and training), tax breaks, tuition reimbursement, stipends, scholarship money for your kids, free use of fire department facilities for social events, etc? Thank you. This is for a survey I am doing. Hey, maybe if enough of you respond to this, we can get the info out about all these great benefits and attract some more volunteers for your respective departments.

This seems like a horrrible, inefficient and dangerous situation for all involved- volunteer, career, and the public. I live in a nearby community and I would be happy to come to Peekskill anytime to testify in front of the council, civil service, or any community organization regarding how important it is to have the civil service titles of Captain and Lieutenant in place. Also, I suggest, if you haven't already, that you enlist the services of the NYS Professional Firefighters Association as well as the IAFF. Further, be sure to put all of your concerns in writing and sent certified mail to the mayor, every member of the council, city manager, Volly Chiefs, etc. so that when inevitably soemthing goes really wrong they cannot avoid liability by claiming that they were not fully aware of the problem. Good luck and don't quit fighting for what is right.

Are you serious?

Please enlighten us.