wraftery

Seth- I am sure that Chief Campbell could answer your questions the best. Back in the 1950's and into the 1960's and the early 1970's, Mount Vernon Fire Department was considered to be one of the most well equiped, well manned, dedicated departments in Westchester County. Today, the members of FDMV are as dedicated as those that manned the department as either paid or volunteers back years ago. However, from once there was a department that had Engine 1, Engine 2, Engine 3, Engine 4, Engine 5, Engine 6, and Reserve/Spare Engine 7, Snorkel 1, Truck 2, Truck 3, and Reserve Truck 4, along with the Classic 1960's Mack C Rescue and FOAM 1, FDMV was once a very well deployed department. Unfortunately, during the rough economic times of the Late 1970's and Early 1980's, the Mount Vernon Fire Department was hit with Major Department Cuts that really ate away from the department, from both a staffing and equipment basis. Money was never put back into the department to upgrade the buildings, apparatus and to bring the Company Levels back to the way it was prior to the Major Budgetary Cuts of the Late 70's/Early 80's. Yonkers FD went thru some similiar cust in their department in the late 70's/early 80's (Engine 301, 302, 305, Truck 76, Rescue 1), but with some "Smart" allocation of funds and excellent management from within their department, YFD was able to improve its departmeent greatly (but I would bet that some within YFD would like to see Engine 301, 302, 305, and Ladder 76 be returned to front line service and maybe with the New Downtown Development and Ridge Hill Projects, we just might see it).
Mount Vernon still to this day, has some very affulent areas. Section of Fleetwood and Down Along California Road have some very expensive houses and property. Mix that in with the Urban Areas that make up the Center of Mount Vernon and you have a need for a top notch fire department, with manpower and apparatus levels that would meet the needs of this city.
I cannot say that when Mount Vernon had both a Paid and Volunteer Department serving the city, that anything was better. I personally think that POLITICS has played a HUGE role into what FDMV has become. I feel for the members of this department, who so want to have the best for the citizens they serve. But to have their buildings that they live in and work out of, falling apart to a point of disgust, appartus breaking down and becoming unrepairabile and them needing neighboring departments to help assist on jobs that normally they could handle on their own, well that is sad.
Just my opinion.

A good way to get this type of info is to take a look at FD's websites. You will get a good insight into the varoius programs in use in he county. Aside from that, I personally an a proponent of Company Inspections. All HFD personnel are certified code enforcement officers, but they only enforce the Fire Preventioh Code. All other code vioations (ie plumbing) are referred to the proper department. All multi-dwellings and commercials are inspected yearly.
I believe that Company Inspections are the singlemost program contributing to the prevention of fires in commercials and multi dwellings. Company Inspections also contribute greatly to Firefighter safety in that Firefighters become familiar with buildings in their first due area. Construction, layout, contents, hazards, egress, etc. are all addressed in the inspection. With a good Company Inspection program, a company should never pull up to a building without somebody in that company having been in that building before.
The reason for doing Company inspections can be summed up by the acronym F.I.R.E.
F Famiarization of the building by Firefighters, and fill out or update a building record card showing all the vital info about the building
I Inspect the building for violations
R Remedy or Remove any dangerous conditions
E Educate the public about fire prevention. Educate members so the building won't kill them.
Guys will moan about doing company inspections, but try to look at the bright side: Its the only time you don't have to CRAWL and JFLYNN won't even yell at you.

Good Thread Capt Benz
Here's a post I put out on a seemingly good thread that died rapidly. I thought it fit this thread as a fireground tip. Hpoefully, you are in a FD thata allows anyone to make this kind of call, and not have to wait for a Chief.
"Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.

When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident"

"Yes sir we are. When you said the steel tanks, it just brought me back to when I joined thr fire service in my Volly Department in Dutchess, we had 2A's with steel tanks. We then upgraded to 2.2 masks in the mid 90's. We now use 4.5's pak
For some of the younger members' edification, the Scott air pack has indeed come a long way. The 4.5 was a big improvement for the fire service. NASA got involved in creating the design. It removed the regulator (that used to be mounted on your chest with a low pressure hose connecting to the face piece on the model Don is talking about) and placed it on the newly designed facepiece. The facepiece afforded much more visability than the previous models, and this helped make it feel less claustrophobic."
This is the Scott the good EFD Capt was talking about. I used to wear that tank? No wonder my back hurts. Note the steel back plate...bulletproof. Also note that it was kept in that suitcase looking box on the ground. I do believe that is a rubber turnout coat judging by the crimp at the waist. Take away the old guys and the old equipment and look real hard...the fire's the same as 2010. Believe it or not, those guys put it out.

Good Thread Capt Benz
Here's a post I put out on a seemingly good thread that died rapidly. I thought it fit this thread as a fireground tip. Hpoefully, you are in a FD thata allows anyone to make this kind of call, and not have to wait for a Chief.
"Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.

When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident"

Bob, nice topic! Allright, I'll contribute...I wonder if I can manage to not get acccused of being a big, bad, bully???
First of all, my compliments to you all. A lot of great tips on this thread.
In no particular order:
When you can't see where you are about to put your foot due to somke or darkness you should be, you guessed it....CRAWLING...or, ok do the duckwalk if you're on the nob (nozzle)...I'm aware of two incidents in my own department during the last month where guys fell through a floor or down stairs and were injured. I have no idea if they were crawling and I don't know for sure if it would have made a difference but I'd be willing to make a bet (see? now I've even most likely pissed off guys on my own job...I don't just pick on defenseless women, children, sneior citizens, etc.)
When raising a ground ladder to the roof, just raise (extend) it all the way every time- saves time looking up and trying to figure whether or not you've raised it enough to have 3 or 4 rungs above the roof line, and then possibly having to raise it all over again if you come up short once you drop it onto the roof...who cares if you ahve 5 or 6 rungs above the roof instead of 3 or 4?
Before entering a room for a search in low or "zero" visibility, put your head right on the floor and turn your head sideways to get as low as possible...in pretty much every room, even those which seem to have "zero" visibility, there will be a couple of inches at least at the bottom of the room of fresh air and thus visibility...if you take the time to do this, you may be able to make out furniture, doorways, drop down fire, or even victims, giving you valuable clues to aid your search, or even to help you make the decision whether to begin a left or right handed seacrh.
Going above the fire in an interior stairwell? Keep your shoulder up against the outside wall. This will give you protection in the event that heat, smoke or fire vents up the stairs from below and will also minimize the chance of being struck by falling skylight glass in the event it is being vented as you ascend the stairs.
During overhaul when pulling walls or ceilings with a charged handline present, try to open up as much as possible before opening the nozzle. Once you start spraying water, we have to deal with all that steam which makes it not only more uncomfortable but much more difficult to see.
Don't crown the nozzleman! Give him and his Officer and/ or nozzleman room to work. If the line isn't advancing fast enough for you, go back down the line and help to dekink it and move it around corners as necessary.
When forcing a bulkhead door, pop off the top hinge so it won't close inadvertantly. Don't chock it. Take the hinge so it definitely will not close. It really sucks for the guys below to be operating on the firefloor or floors above with decent stairwell ventilation and then to have it go to s$#t because someone bumped into the already opened bulkhead door and knocked the chock out.
Please, please, please, DO NOT vent windows from the outside unless you have coordinated this action with an engine company which is advancing toward this window and there are no strong winds blowing in the direction of the window, or if you plan on entering the window for a search.
On the fireground, when it's really cold out, please don't say, "I hate the cold!" Same goes for the "man it's hot!" comments in the summer...we all know this already and you're just annoying us.
Did I mention, CRAWL?
And by far, most importantly, please QTIP.

Good Thread Capt Benz
Here's a post I put out on a seemingly good thread that died rapidly. I thought it fit this thread as a fireground tip. Hpoefully, you are in a FD thata allows anyone to make this kind of call, and not have to wait for a Chief.
"Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.

When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident"

I am asking for input for this topic. What I am looking for is a list of tips that we cant find in the books that work on the fireground. this could help everybody at sometime in thier career. No particular order at this point, if you have something share it with the rest of the crowd.
GROUND LADDERS
All ground ladders should be marked at the balance point for one man carries
Whoever has the Butt / foot of the ladder in a 2 man carry should anounce it so as you are approaching the building there is no confusion as to where it should be placed, and also so it cant get put upside down. That could never happen lol

Good thread starter. It stirs up a lot of thought. But to fully answer it would take a thesis, and the answers would be different for every communities situation. Manpower, time and distances of incoming companies, qualifications of Mutual aid companies, AND the fire itself all have to be analyzed before you can truly give your answers. ICS and SOP's cannot be written in stone, They have to be dynamic and be able to handle all the "either/ors" that the first post of this thread poses.
Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.
When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident.

Good thread starter. It stirs up a lot of thought. But to fully answer it would take a thesis, and the answers would be different for every communities situation. Manpower, time and distances of incoming companies, qualifications of Mutual aid companies, AND the fire itself all have to be analyzed before you can truly give your answers. ICS and SOP's cannot be written in stone, They have to be dynamic and be able to handle all the "either/ors" that the first post of this thread poses.
Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.
When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident.

Good thread starter. It stirs up a lot of thought. But to fully answer it would take a thesis, and the answers would be different for every communities situation. Manpower, time and distances of incoming companies, qualifications of Mutual aid companies, AND the fire itself all have to be analyzed before you can truly give your answers. ICS and SOP's cannot be written in stone, They have to be dynamic and be able to handle all the "either/ors" that the first post of this thread poses.
Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.
When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident.

Good thread starter. It stirs up a lot of thought. But to fully answer it would take a thesis, and the answers would be different for every communities situation. Manpower, time and distances of incoming companies, qualifications of Mutual aid companies, AND the fire itself all have to be analyzed before you can truly give your answers. ICS and SOP's cannot be written in stone, They have to be dynamic and be able to handle all the "either/ors" that the first post of this thread poses.
Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.
When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident.

Theere is no reason you can't put together a FAST team of more than one company. IC-wise it now becomes the FAST GROUP and must have a FAST Group Leader. Need a hose line and two saws and a stokes and...
Ic just makes his FAST Group 1 E and 2 T assigns a FAST Leader, and the problems like shortages of equipment or duplication of efforts go away.
Hopefully by now we have all taken ICS courses. Now, let's learn how to use it to our advantage.

Great answer...you got my vote!

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.

There could be more, but ONE is minimum manning. You also need back-ups to cover vacations, sick time, etc.
In a high trivia area some Depts run full company of know-it-alls. You've seen them. They show up at your job, rate you on a scale of 10, and tell you how THEY would have put the fire out.
Lawyers don't count...different category, not covered under the manning clause.
While we're at it, there's another firehouse group that is actually saving their cities some money, Cities across the nation are removing the sirens from their apparatus. This is because of the large numbers of guys who WHINE all the way to the fire.

There could be more, but ONE is minimum manning. You also need back-ups to cover vacations, sick time, etc.
In a high trivia area some Depts run full company of know-it-alls. You've seen them. They show up at your job, rate you on a scale of 10, and tell you how THEY would have put the fire out.
Lawyers don't count...different category, not covered under the manning clause.
While we're at it, there's another firehouse group that is actually saving their cities some money, Cities across the nation are removing the sirens from their apparatus. This is because of the large numbers of guys who WHINE all the way to the fire.

There could be more, but ONE is minimum manning. You also need back-ups to cover vacations, sick time, etc.
In a high trivia area some Depts run full company of know-it-alls. You've seen them. They show up at your job, rate you on a scale of 10, and tell you how THEY would have put the fire out.
Lawyers don't count...different category, not covered under the manning clause.
While we're at it, there's another firehouse group that is actually saving their cities some money, Cities across the nation are removing the sirens from their apparatus. This is because of the large numbers of guys who WHINE all the way to the fire.

I don't think ANYONE has ever broken a Halligan, and no one ever will.
Even if the brakes fail, the elevator operates on counterweights, and the wheel would very slowly only an inch or two at most before it wedges against the Halligan.
BECAUSE OF THE WEIGHTS, THE CAR SHOULD NORMALLY MOVE UP, NOT DOWN.
Sorry about the all caps. I wasn't yelling at you, Frank, the "caps lock" button was stuck.

Along with Rescue training, if elevators are starting to appear in your town you might want to consider
1. Getting your elected officials to enact an elevator code requiring periodic inspectiona by qualified inspectors.
2. In that code specify a Fire Service key so that all future elevators will have the sane key. If you really want to be proactive, get your neighboring towns to specify the same key. Your nearest big city may already have a key specified. That's the key you want to specify.
3, Clip a Fire Service Ket to each FD portable radio.
Bob Benz gave you a great list of size-up considerations. Since you only have 2 elevators and they are new, you probably won't have a lot of elevator runs. Why not laminate Bob's list and put it in your elevator kit or command vehicle.

I don't think ANYONE has ever broken a Halligan, and no one ever will.
Even if the brakes fail, the elevator operates on counterweights, and the wheel would very slowly only an inch or two at most before it wedges against the Halligan.
BECAUSE OF THE WEIGHTS, THE CAR SHOULD NORMALLY MOVE UP, NOT DOWN.
Sorry about the all caps. I wasn't yelling at you, Frank, the "caps lock" button was stuck.

here are some steps that need addressing and some already have
determine what kind of elevator you are being called to work on you may only have a hydro, but does your mutual aid area have traction elevators?
do you have the keys to open all the doors you may come across?
where is the elevator stuck?
is it a true emergency ie medical call or just a stuck occupied elevator?
do you have an sop for lock out tag out? ANY elevator you are going to work on MUST have the power shut off before starting any evolution.This is probably the most important thing you have to do. with that said do you leave a member at the shut off, (in the old days we always took the fuses out and put them in our pockets), do you shut it off and lock it out so no one else can put it back on, or do you just assume because you shut it off that no one else is in the building answering the same call: IE: building maint, PD, elevator repairman who might turn it back on for whatever reason.
how many people are in the elevator? involves making contact with the occupants and possably calming them down BEFORE any attempt to open doors
where is the car in relation to the floor
is there a fall hazard into the shaft by ANYONE FD or OCCUPANT UPON REMOVAL
a little giant ladder/ closet ladder is standard on all our responses to help remove occupants
how good are you at getting the doors open practice makes perfect
AND PLAN B FOR THAT ONE IN A HUNDRED CALL WHERE NOTHING YOU PRACTICED WORKED
This is just a quick overview some steps were already mention in previous posts I am sure i left out something along the way

1. Line to room as backup. More lines if indicated
2, Put out fire in box w/ AFFF 2 1/2 gal can ( Steam from this also quiets chimney fire a little)
3. Chains down from top (if no chimney chains any chains on a rope will do) Then Afff from top.
4. Afff at bottom to handle any drop-down chunks
5 Do a good overhaul annd secondary search around chimney, attic

Cap, your recollection of the events of that day is almost my recollection to the letter. I was duty DC, so I stayed back. We too were loading up with EMS supplies, and fueling up, and off-duty guys coming in with their own sawzalls and pry bars in anticipation of a major rescue effort that never happened. My Capt that went to 233rd St recounts the same occurrences as you. Be it known, also, that you and I have never discussed this before, but the recollections are still vivid, and the same story line.
Unfortunately the heroism of the 343 has been forgotten today by most Americans. When I half-mast my flag on Sept 11, I am now asked what's the half-mast for. A hundred years from now the 343 will only be remembered by future Firefighters, and then, only if we don't let our Brotherhood go by the wayside.