HFD23

Date:11/28/11
Time:1914Hrs
Location: 140 East Hartsdale Ave.
Frequency: HFD, 46.06, 46.26, Fire 14 Trunked
Units Operating: HFD 2172, 2174, E-170, E-171, TL-15, FFD E-174, GFD SQ-15, SFD L-28 F.A.S.T., Batt 14
Weather Conditions: Clear
Description Of Incident: Working Fire on the 2nd floor, Standpipe attack, Multiple Reports of people trapped on floors above. Members made a aggressive interior attack with a quick knock down of heavy fire in the apartment of origin.
Reporters:
Writer:HFD23

Date:11/28/11
Time:1914Hrs
Location: 140 East Hartsdale Ave.
Frequency: HFD, 46.06, 46.26, Fire 14 Trunked
Units Operating: HFD 2172, 2174, E-170, E-171, TL-15, FFD E-174, GFD SQ-15, SFD L-28 F.A.S.T., Batt 14
Weather Conditions: Clear
Description Of Incident: Working Fire on the 2nd floor, Standpipe attack, Multiple Reports of people trapped on floors above. Members made a aggressive interior attack with a quick knock down of heavy fire in the apartment of origin.
Reporters:
Writer:HFD23

Date:11/28/11
Time:1914Hrs
Location: 140 East Hartsdale Ave.
Frequency: HFD, 46.06, 46.26, Fire 14 Trunked
Units Operating: HFD 2172, 2174, E-170, E-171, TL-15, FFD E-174, GFD SQ-15, SFD L-28 F.A.S.T., Batt 14
Weather Conditions: Clear
Description Of Incident: Working Fire on the 2nd floor, Standpipe attack, Multiple Reports of people trapped on floors above. Members made a aggressive interior attack with a quick knock down of heavy fire in the apartment of origin.
Reporters:
Writer:HFD23

Date:11/28/11
Time:1914Hrs
Location: 140 East Hartsdale Ave.
Frequency: HFD, 46.06, 46.26, Fire 14 Trunked
Units Operating: HFD 2172, 2174, E-170, E-171, TL-15, FFD E-174, GFD SQ-15, SFD L-28 F.A.S.T., Batt 14
Weather Conditions: Clear
Description Of Incident: Working Fire on the 2nd floor, Standpipe attack, Multiple Reports of people trapped on floors above. Members made a aggressive interior attack with a quick knock down of heavy fire in the apartment of origin.
Reporters:
Writer:HFD23

I remember when the rep points first started out, there was a negative icon. Any way to bring this back once you give a guy a rep point? Or just bring it back in general?
I'm sure my points would drop about 300 in a day though...

Those photos show all NRFD plus NRFD Spare apparatus, LFD tower 7 WPFD L-33, Greenville E-150, TMFD E-36.

Those photos show all NRFD plus NRFD Spare apparatus, LFD tower 7 WPFD L-33, Greenville E-150, TMFD E-36.

Yes, Yorktown's Dive Water/ Rescue team is trained in various areas including but not limited to Dive Ops, Ice Dive Ops, Ice Rescue, Swift Water Rescue, Floods and Moving Water ops. The Team Has all the necessary boats and equipment for the above listed operations. For more information on their capabilities contact the Chief or Dive Team Captain, i know that they go out and will do training with other departments regarding the teams capabilities as a mutual aid resource.

OK Now I will post for the second time in four years.
Recently I was called in from home and paid overtime to stand-by in a White Plains firehouse while they battled a blaze on Lake St. There were other Mutual Aide companies in the city as well, I believe two, all on stand-by all at the expense of their taxpayers NOT the City of White Plains taxpayers.
Now that the City of White Plains has shown that it is unwilling to pay for a minimum level of protection will the surrounding departments continue to subsidize the City of White Plains at their own taxpayers’ expense but sending in Mutual Aide to stand-by? How do you justify this?
Now let’s be very clear I am not, nor would I ever say if a Department needs help you don’t go. If White Plains or anyone else has a fire or other emergency and needs help at the scene they should get all they need from their neighbors. But to expect that other communities should pay for the manpower and apparatus to stand-by in your fire stations when you are not willing to pay for your own employees is ludicrous! Especially for a city like White Plains that enjoys such a broad and lucrative tax base. How come no one is asking where the tax dollars are being spent?

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.

Thank you scarsdale fd fast for your proactive laddering of the fire building

Maybe he is not needed in Yorktown. We can save money on his salary and hire some firefighters!

First I am glad that I am not the only one who has noticed Mohegans downfall in the recent years. I am still concern with the quality of fire service here.
Well as a resident of Lake Mohegan I decided to call the firehouse. It was not easy but I got through after 2 attempts. The first time I called was a Saturday I got a recording, A RECORDING? WT*! Its a Saturday and there is no one at the fire house?
Turns out that they were all at another firehouse training. OK
The second call was more productive, I spoke to a Paid Firefighter. He told me that this has been getting worse for some years. The Board of Commissioners have turned the focus of the dept towards medical response. The paid staff has been cut by 30% hoping that maybe the volunteers would pick up the ball. (didn't happen) One Lieutenant and six firefighters have not been replaced, 4 firefighters retired and 2 firefighters retired due to injuries from the job. I asked if they were injured due to lack of man power, after a long pause He had no comment. They have not hired any new firefighters in 7 years. I wonder how old the force that they have is
I decided to call up some old friends who I know are volunteers in Mohegan the other in Yorktown. It seems Monday’s fire that their paid Capt that usually does not respond to fires, did so. They could not fight the fire from the inside because they did not have enough firefighters to do so. Westchester dispatch, which has taken over the radio dispatch in recent years, did not get the message to respond all on duty firefighters from the outer stations. This would have put 5 fire fighters and a Capt at the scene. Five years ago this would have been 6 or 7 paid firefighters but the volunteers feel intimidated with that many paid firefighters on scene. Some of the volunteers that showed up were not “inside firefighters”(which means that they are not allow to enter a building fire. WHAT!!!!!) Some of the Outside firefighters refused setup the hydrant and opted to take pictures instead. This action caused one of the paid firefighters to go take care of the hydrant and took him away from inside firefighting. BRILLIANT! This left one Capt and two Firefighters to fight the fire. There is a difference of opinion but it seems all safety teams ( FAST) were used to fight the fire.
The chief claims that the fire got a good headway (news12). I bet it did while you were waiting there for more people to show up! Apparently the paid firefighters have complained about unsafe working conditions and the volunteers don’t like that OSHA said that they must follow a 2in2out policy. This was being violated until recently. I don’t want my house to burn down, but I don’t want any one killed for my house even more.
The morale in Mohegan is low and the commissioners are turning a blind eye. The volunteers FF do not like that they are being restricted by the laws that keep them safe. The paid FF (that are union) feel like they don’t get the respect from volunteers that are themselves are in other unions (paid firefighters including NYC, Police, paid EMS, Town workers,) These volunteers are union members so they can have better pay and working conditions for them and their families but don’t like when the paid force in Mohegan asks for the same for themselves and their families.
Even if the Commissioners hired 6 paid firefighters tomorrow they would still have to be trained and this would take time. I can hardly believe that such a great dept as Mohegan has been reduced to not being able to fight their own fires, because of should short sighted Commissioners.
I am getting a lesson in fire dept politics and the games people play with others lives.

Good thread starter. It stirs up a lot of thought. But to fully answer it would take a thesis, and the answers would be different for every communities situation. Manpower, time and distances of incoming companies, qualifications of Mutual aid companies, AND the fire itself all have to be analyzed before you can truly give your answers. ICS and SOP's cannot be written in stone, They have to be dynamic and be able to handle all the "either/ors" that the first post of this thread poses.
Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.
When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident.

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.

I think having a extra line stretched and ready for the F.A.S.T. to use in the event of a rescue is very important, however i do agree often it may not be fast personnel operating the line, there is nothing wrong with assigning extra companies to staging. also if your short manpower reassigning additional personal to a hose line that will protect a rescue operation in the event of some sort of collapse etc is important.
The bottom line is may departments both career and volunteer manpower is a issue, some days F.A.S.T. companies may have 4 or more sometimes even less. the ability of the fast company to effect a rescue and operate a hose line will be based on this. a study showed approx 12 FF's to rescue 1 so i don't know many companies that have 12 F.A.S.T. members at every run. i have seen teams deploy with 8 or 10 so we won't say that it is totally not impossible to operate a line with F.A.S.T. members.
A better question is what is your Departments minimum staffing to respond?
minimum requirements to be a team member?
Any one have a SOP / SOG reading something to the effect if you respond with 4 members as your minimum that you also request a 2nd team to fill out a more realistic number of personnel by combining resources?

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.

Many Departments in Westchester use engine co's as F.A.S.T/ R.I.T.
i know Hartsdale E-170 has all the stuff you mentioned plus some. Fairview, Yonkers, white plains all usually use engines. Scarsdale and Greenville can use either a Eng or a Truck as fast, Croton uses a engine, Yorktown use's an engine all which have the equipment you stated. Irvington uses a rescue i believe.
Many Departments in Westchester have engines that are set up as more of a squad meaning that they carry engine and truck company equipment like saws hooks etc. also many carry extrication equipment and rope rescue equipment, not every department has multiple trucks to send out on mutual aid, many have multiple engines so sending one out of town isn't as big a deal. also many departments don't have heavy rescues so engine's have to fill the gap taking on a roll of carrying more then just hose and water.
Another factor is that how often does the F.A.S.T truck get close enough to the fire building to actually use its aerial, its rare here in westchester often due to limited access, tight streets etc. Thus using an aerial device as a F.A.S.T. company is a luxury not a necessity.
The Biggest thing isn't what apparatus the F.A.S.Team comes on its the equipment they carry,depoly, the pro-activity of the F.A.S.T members and leader and most importantly the level of training of the members who respond.