FD828

If you are going to arrest the kids pulling the alarm at this type of facility then shouldn't they arrest the kids that pull them in all buildings? It has the same possible outcomes(accident while responding, someone getting killed etc...), makes no difference where the pull station was be it a school, mall, hospital or a juvy housing unit.

I think the main point of Seth's response was first the community service aspect as in a "punishment" for his crime, being that he is 12 years old. For God's sake we are letting murders off with less punishment in this country! I also think Seth was looking at helping change the direction of this kids life. Obviously he is troubled and everyone must be giving up on him. I commend you Seth for the willingness to help and possibly mold this kid into a productive member of society. If it doesn't work out what happens? He goes back to where he was. What if it does work? What if because Seth took a chance and helped this kid, he joins a FD and saves a bunch of lives? You never know...... (and yes I realize that Seth is not actually here doing this, but it's the thought that counts)
P.S. - there are plenty of examples of firefighters starting fires so judging him that way isn't exactly fair

The kids' 12. He'll loop through the system again, and what will be the benefit? He'll come out more of a criminal then before.
The false alarm issues can get someone killed in a variety of ways, and needs to be stopped.
However, why not try to point these kids in the right direction, if applicable? Have them pack hose, mow the lawns at the firehouse and do janitorial duties, get if they prove themselves, get them to join the explorer program.
I think there needs to be more social responsibilty instead of ignoring these kids and the impact they can have if allowed to go untreated. (burden on law enforcement, courts, corrections over their lifespan). Most people on this forum are lucky to have been born into a good part of society and have, for the most part, had a upbringing where someone cared about them. These kid's don't have that. Nobody ever cared about them. They grew up in poverty and violence. They know that trouble brings them status, attention.
Again, this kid is 12. It's not too late.

What really matters here is that they fix the areas that they were deficient in so that they don't have a repeat of this tradgedy, not the amount of the fines. Hope that they see the big picture.

I cannot nor would I argue the fact that at present the VFDs..all of them...rely on SFRD to differing degrees for assistance at working fires. It is the goal of the SVFD plan to alleviate that situation dramatically. Will it succeed? I do not know but I will say that I agree in principle that hiring 47 additional FFs for up North will not be the end all be all of solving the issue. It will take a considerable effort in recruitment and retention of volunteers to meet the staffing needs of the future. Unlike many I do believe that this is possible given enough support from the City in making it so, For me though, to garner that support the come as you please response mode must cease and a formalized duty schedule implemented. We will see.
Cogs

So this SVFD plan goes through, what happens immediately? There are still not enough volunteers for that set up to work, as you say there has to be recruitment and retention of volunteers to meet the staffing needs. So basically you are admitting that the plan is not set up to work, not at least until they get a bunch of volunteers, train them and give them the incentives to stay, do have that right? So this plan might work in the future, IF they can recruit enough volunteers to pull shifts. Until then, you will just use the SFRD as a cruch. It may work in Belltown, but the residents of TOR, Long Ridge, and of course Springdale are NOT getting the kind of commitment that Belltown has put forth. I am still amazed that you would rather associate yourselves with the other 3 VFD's only to keep SFRD out. A true volunteer FD that responds to 100% of its' calls, trains regularly, yet is getting lumped in with the other departments that do not even respond to all their calls. Do you really believe that the other departments will step up and follow Belltown's lead or is more likely that the paid drivers will respond and the volunteers will continue to pick and choose wich calls they go on, and because SFRD will not be responding the need or desire to respond just to cancell the downtown unit will be gone as well as the need to show up for the medical call or activated alarm? Only time will tell.
And my apologies for not realizing that ALL the equipment and buildings were purchased using soley donated money.

I understand that each VFD "owns" their building, but how did they pay for that said building(s) and equipment? Taxpayer money perhaps? So perhaps the tax payers are the ones who really own the VFD's buildings and equipment.
Hiring 50+ ff's to make up for the lack of volunteers is not saving tax payers money no matter how you slice it. You can cover it up by changing mill rates but you are still robbing Peter to pay Paul. What happens when these ff's want to unionize or want the same pay/benefits as the downtown ff's? What about your tax payer concerns then? Doesn't matter right? As long as SFRD is not up there you really don't care what happens. As long as the VFD's stay in tact, public safety, tax dollars is not a true concern. I would have so much respect for all they volunteers if they really said what this is about and stop all the bs*ing about how it's about public safety and tax payers and the fake concerns about the downtown residents not having their machines anymore cause they are up north. This is and always been about the VFD's keeping what they have, staying in charge, NOT what is best for the public. I give credit to Belltown for handling their calls. They couldn't handle a real fire on their own without SFRD help, but they are responding. 1 VFD out of 5, NONE of them can handle a fire without SFRD. You cannot argue that fact.

So does this mean that the volunteers from Belltown will respond to TOR's fire house for a call in that district and take a TOR machine and visa versa? Or basically is this just a glorified mutual aid agreement? If so, basically everything is the same as it currently operates. Belltown will respond into TOR's district with BFD's equipment and so on and so on. I guess that way when TOR doesn't respond, they can say "But we did, they just came from our Belltown station." Good smoke and mirror show.

Pavia's fire plan is a joke and the board of representatives will never vote in favor of it. Cogs, you and the rest of the volunteers associated with this plan could care less about the public, you're not interested in improving public safety, instead your number 1 priority is survival. The creation of Pavia's fire plan was not brought on because the volunteers believed that it would improve fire protection, it was created because you guys felt threatened and it was necessary to survive. Everyone can clearly see that your proposed "agreement" is just another survival tactic.

As long as Politicians control the fire service, there is little hope for our future. They are capitalizing on an unfortunate set of circumstances of which they are a BIG contributor to! (the financial meltdown of this Country’s economy) and are using this opportunity to come after us FULL THROTTLE. As anyone of reasonable intelligence should know, Politicians along with this Country’s greedy Bankers and Corporate Pirates have run this Country’s economy in the dirt and now need someone (or Something) to blame it all on!
Since almost every working American is suffering financially right now, they are easily swayed into believing that Career Firefighters and Police are the cause of all their financial woes. Most people throughout the course of their lives rarely call upon our services and many are fortunate enough to never experience the tragedy of a fire, first hand. With that, it’s not hard for some sharp tongue Politician’s along with the corporate controlled newspapers to discredit Cops and Firemen almost daily.
It’s no secret that Professional Services cost money. It’s been that way for a long time. It’s no secret that SOME have abused the system as well. Dishonesty and corruption live in every walk of life. If the dishonesty and corruption of Politicians were revealed in full to the American people, the sheer stench alone will kill us all! Their one distinct advantage is they control the Media and have the ability to influence the masses with their “Spin” of the facts. As distorted as the wish to make them! We are always defending ourselves to a tainted audience!
With all that is going on, some Volunteer organizations have seized this opportunity to align themselves with these Politicians (i.e. SVFD) to capitalize on a unique opportunity to position themselves as the answer to everyone’s financial problems. This is a powerful combination to those who do not have the depth of knowledge about the services they receive and the history of this ongoing issue. They only know what they are told in the newspapers which from what I have read, is alarmingly vague.
In a recent post, FFPCogs writes; “It may come to pass that this will be an epic failure.” Should that be the case, who will shoulder the blame? Of course no one responsible will be anywhere to be found! So who pays the price if this fails? All those who have been misled all along! Not a legacy I would want to be attached to!
………….and so it goes on.

12%, That's interesting data. Is that for a fully staffed piece of apparatus, or 1 non-qualified (medical or fire) person in a pick-up truck, signing on with a radio? I would be interested in seeing how well the other "maligned" companies actually respond. But as always, their sovereignty seems to afford them with the luxury of not providing it.

"Chicago FD Must Hire 111 Black Firefighters" ... No problem, all it will take is to have 111 black candidates study hard, work out hard and score high on the exam. There is no mystery to a fire department civil service exam, it's all about desire and dedication; if a candidate doesn't have that they don't belong 'on the job'.

I agree with M'ave, the issue isn't so much the tests themselves, but that the results give the appearance of some sort of bias towards minorities, specifically blacks.
I know in several instances, the perception created is that minorities as a whole did poorly, when the reality was that many did pass the exam, but may not have scored high enough in relation to other applicants to get hired.
I also think the argument about written tests' inability to determine who would make a good firefighter is misplaced, particularly in a large department like Chicago and FDNY. Firefighting requires two things: brains & brawn. I believe the intent of the written exam is to provide an initial assessment of the "brains" part. Basic competency in reading, comprehension, math, writing and such is necessary to successfully complete the training academy. I believe the intent of the physical agility test is to provide an initial assessment of the "brawns" part. A certain level of physical strength, endurance and athletic ability is necessary to successfully complete the training academy.
To me, the testing process is about weeding out candidates that do not have a sufficient level of both, not determining who will or will not make a good firefighter - the start of that determination begins at the Fire Academy. Considering the cost aspect of training a recruit, it makes perfect sense to select candidates who performed the best on both parts and realistically have the best shot at completing the training.
From an efficiency aspect, in terms of both cost and time, it also makes perfect sense to administer a written test to "thin" the applicant pool before giving a physical agility test.
Considering some of the tests in question that I've seen, I don't think the problem is the test or an institutional basis towards minorities, but rather factors external to the FD and the desire for "special" rather than "equal" treatment by some people and organizations.

Dude, wake up. They are taking away rights that these unions fought for. It is anti-American what those states have done. It is not the unions that have put the municipalities in the spot they are in. The republicans are pitting the working class against each other. (It's not fair that the unions have this and the rest of the workers don't. Vote republican and we will get rid of the big bad unions) Do you really think that the non-union citizens will see any difference in their taxes? You are kidding yourself if you think the residents will get a tax break if they strip the unions of their collective bargaining rights. The unions are not to blame. Nor are they unwilling to make concessions. But don't sit there and say that we have to cut this and that and watch those cutting get raises and if you think it hasn't happened you are insane. They are destroying what so many have worked for. It is not right.
Your comment of making sure unions are kept in line... what exactly do you mean? The unions have to negotiate every single thing in their contracts with... yup the municipality! So don't sit there and say it is the unions fault, the contracts have to be agreed to by both sides. The unions have not strong armed anyone. They have fairly negotiated their contracts. So you are saying well done to Oklahoma because you think this will be what is best for the union members themselves but not the union itself? So basically the cities can now say you will get this for pay and this for vacation and this for medical and if you don't like it you can go work elsewhere. So how is this better for the union member???

LOL. My union backs those who show the most support for pro labor initiatives, it doesn't mean that I support the same persons if they majority of their stances don't reflect mine.
You also make your own argument so get on one side or the other. You say well done Oklahoma yet you say you support all governments who have objectives to keep unions in line and do what is best for union members. What do you think collective bargaining does? It is designed to protect both parties, to represent the government (the people) and the union (the employees) to make a fair agreement that one doesn't have a hold above the other.
Not sure what you do for a living...but EMS could do much better for itself if it wasn't loaded with so many privates and also had a stronger union to represent them.
I am a union public servant and I am far from the enemy. The waste that goes on around those who actually provide a service is ridiculous and last time I check I pay all the taxes the rest of NY state people do as well. I have done and seen things that would make people s*** their pants, throw up, pass out or wet themselves and do it because they can't or won't. Not to mention I along with many of my colleagues are college educated and oh by average emergency services personnel have a life expectancy 5 to 10 years less then someone born the same time as them. So I won't apologize for my pension which is miniscule compared to what some of the salaries of the "managers" of municipalities and the state are that do jack crap for anyone their whole lives but spew rhetoric.
And for the record I am center right..and I'm done with the republican party, the dummycrats, the loonitarians, tea party, green party or any party. There is a whole slew of what nixon once referred to as the silent majority who wouldn't be so silent if a true candidate could rise..problem is they are all the same no matter what party...in it for themselves, their buddies and lobbyist. The average person who could do a job can't make it because of the system and how it works.
So go screw yourselves Oklahoma...you'll get yours in the end too.

EMSer...
I'd love to photocopy one of my pay stubs to show you my weekly deductions. However, i am sure that you would then b**** and moan that i am paid too much and that of course is my Union's fault right?
All of the members who have posted before me have hit the nail on the head repeatedly. You still fail to produce facts and many of your statements are baseless.
Many Union jobs such as Police, Fire and DPW were waaaay under-paid for years. These were jobs that nobody wanted. So, many people went to work for companies such as IBM where they made good money. Through the years, the Unions which you bash, worked hard to get better compensation for its members. All of a sudden, these jobs became more appealing. Now the people that rode their high horse all the way to the bank for all those years are crying that us Union members are over-paid and over-compensated.
Look, you're more than entitled to your opinion. I actually enjoy the fact that you continue to go back and forth with the other members who reply to your posts. Unfortunately, as most have said, you still fail to produce legitimate factual information to back up your statements.

Dude, wake up. They are taking away rights that these unions fought for. It is anti-American what those states have done. It is not the unions that have put the municipalities in the spot they are in. The republicans are pitting the working class against each other. (It's not fair that the unions have this and the rest of the workers don't. Vote republican and we will get rid of the big bad unions) Do you really think that the non-union citizens will see any difference in their taxes? You are kidding yourself if you think the residents will get a tax break if they strip the unions of their collective bargaining rights. The unions are not to blame. Nor are they unwilling to make concessions. But don't sit there and say that we have to cut this and that and watch those cutting get raises and if you think it hasn't happened you are insane. They are destroying what so many have worked for. It is not right.
Your comment of making sure unions are kept in line... what exactly do you mean? The unions have to negotiate every single thing in their contracts with... yup the municipality! So don't sit there and say it is the unions fault, the contracts have to be agreed to by both sides. The unions have not strong armed anyone. They have fairly negotiated their contracts. So you are saying well done to Oklahoma because you think this will be what is best for the union members themselves but not the union itself? So basically the cities can now say you will get this for pay and this for vacation and this for medical and if you don't like it you can go work elsewhere. So how is this better for the union member???

How about citing some relevant corruption? Any benefit a union member takes as part of their contract was in fact agreed to by management. It sounds to me like you're misdirecting your anger on the Union, when in fact you should hold your elected officials accountable for agreeing to contractual obligations you do not support. But since it's easier to sit on the couch than it is to get involved in local politics, I'm betting you're just as happy complaining by computer, and not really interested in helping.

Not to mention every single contract has been agreed upon by both the union and the ELECTED officials of the municipalities!! Elected by whom??? The tax payers that live there perhaps? So every single item that a union has was fairly negotiated by both sides and voted upon by both sides. You act like the unions are not willing to bend in these hard times. This is the farthest from what is happening.

Dude, wake up. They are taking away rights that these unions fought for. It is anti-American what those states have done. It is not the unions that have put the municipalities in the spot they are in. The republicans are pitting the working class against each other. (It's not fair that the unions have this and the rest of the workers don't. Vote republican and we will get rid of the big bad unions) Do you really think that the non-union citizens will see any difference in their taxes? You are kidding yourself if you think the residents will get a tax break if they strip the unions of their collective bargaining rights. The unions are not to blame. Nor are they unwilling to make concessions. But don't sit there and say that we have to cut this and that and watch those cutting get raises and if you think it hasn't happened you are insane. They are destroying what so many have worked for. It is not right.
Your comment of making sure unions are kept in line... what exactly do you mean? The unions have to negotiate every single thing in their contracts with... yup the municipality! So don't sit there and say it is the unions fault, the contracts have to be agreed to by both sides. The unions have not strong armed anyone. They have fairly negotiated their contracts. So you are saying well done to Oklahoma because you think this will be what is best for the union members themselves but not the union itself? So basically the cities can now say you will get this for pay and this for vacation and this for medical and if you don't like it you can go work elsewhere. So how is this better for the union member???

The system works and volunteers exist, right???? How come a fire on 4/15/11, at 1200pm,on Hoyclo Dr, a road in the TOR district but much closer to LRFD Sta 2, the third due engine, Eng 8, placed the initial hand line in operation?? Long Ridge Eng 74 first due with one guy did nothing. Second due TOR Eng 64 with 3 guys did nothing. Three minutes later third due Eng 8 arrived with 3 guys, and most importantly a company officer, stretched the first line off of Eng 74. How come Unit 4, the SFRD Deputy Chief, was the IC?? Were are the volunteer firefighters? Were are the volunteer chiefs? I know, it is Malloys fault. Or perhaps there are not enough qualified volunteers around or they are unable to respond in a timely fashion. It is not 1985 anymore and it is time for a change.
P.S. I know that this statement has grammatical errors but it was not sent to a governing body so I took some liberties.

How much he paid is irrelevent; the fact is that he knows what his terms and conditions of employment are; that he knows what his benefits package will look like knowing that the employer cannot just decide to "change" things in midstream; he know's what his base level of pay and how much of a raise he'll get every year so he can financially plan for down the road; he know's if there is going to be a layoff, there is a system in place which determines who is laid off and how; he knows that if an issue comes up in the workplace, there is a mechanism to address it up to and including arbitration if the union and employer cannot agree on a resolution; he knows if he's hurt in the line of duty that he'll have his salary and medical coverage continued according to the terms of the labor agreement; he knows that when he has reached retirement age he'll be able to retire with a living wage so he won't have to depend soley on social security to live off of for the rest of his life.....I could go on, but maybe you see the big picture. You on the other hand most likely work non-union and as such have no guarantees; just taxes and death.
I know your kind of young yet and have a long way to go in your career(s) but try to be open minded rather then condeming something you really have no idea about.
Read up on the history of the labor movement in this country and the contributions they have made and are continuing to make. You might actually change your position to one of appreciation for what the labor movement has done for this country and will continue to do.

Anyone who hasn't watched Glen Beck doesn't know what they're missing out on. I watch it at least weekly and am truly disappointed he will not be on the air for the coming election. Its a regular broadcast of a man going insane. Blows away any reality programing.
EMSer, if its factual you can post it. So which agency has this sweet heart deal? If the biggest evil you can come up with is a few thousand a year in higher education I'll happily go toe to toe with examples of Conservatives supporting, requesting, and enjoying classically liberal ideals that just so happen to benefit them. I'll even spot you some union corruption and bid rigging cases in the last few years that have cost hundreds of thousands if you need some help.
Obama as liberal as he is, is not pushing for a communist or even a socialist state, he is not trying to cripple the upper class, and he is not going to destroy the country. You can't get much more nanny state than FDR, but his programs were extended by Eisenhower. Then LBJ comes in with more social reforms and some sweeping civil rights legislation, and wouldn't you know Nixon followed him up by adding to social security with a lil deficit spending. He also added OSHA, the EPA, and a few other federal oversight agencies.
No sitting president can place any meaningful cuts upon medicare or social security and hope to return to office. Old people vote too much. Hell, for all his talk Bush did nothing to curb the growth of medicare. Any attempt was crippled by partisan politics and resulted in more shuffling of numbers. Obamacare has huge potential if it can get preventative healthcare to more people. Get sick enough or hurt badly enough and everyone eventually ends up on the government dole. If you can keep them healthy enough to work you can keep them earning. Republicans have stopped arguing that it will save the country money, they're focusing on the cost to implement and the fed butting into states rights. But I thought this was about the budget? They're all agenda driven. Republican or Democrat, they all have someone behind them pulling the strings. So when you say that the unions are s*** because they're in bed with the democrats you sound like an idiot. The democrats support the unions and the republicans support big business. The middle class and small business are universally paraded around as the cause du jour but when the legislation is written they're the one's left out.

Dude, wake up. They are taking away rights that these unions fought for. It is anti-American what those states have done. It is not the unions that have put the municipalities in the spot they are in. The republicans are pitting the working class against each other. (It's not fair that the unions have this and the rest of the workers don't. Vote republican and we will get rid of the big bad unions) Do you really think that the non-union citizens will see any difference in their taxes? You are kidding yourself if you think the residents will get a tax break if they strip the unions of their collective bargaining rights. The unions are not to blame. Nor are they unwilling to make concessions. But don't sit there and say that we have to cut this and that and watch those cutting get raises and if you think it hasn't happened you are insane. They are destroying what so many have worked for. It is not right.
Your comment of making sure unions are kept in line... what exactly do you mean? The unions have to negotiate every single thing in their contracts with... yup the municipality! So don't sit there and say it is the unions fault, the contracts have to be agreed to by both sides. The unions have not strong armed anyone. They have fairly negotiated their contracts. So you are saying well done to Oklahoma because you think this will be what is best for the union members themselves but not the union itself? So basically the cities can now say you will get this for pay and this for vacation and this for medical and if you don't like it you can go work elsewhere. So how is this better for the union member???

Sonny boy, you need a dose of the real world because what you've said proves that you have no idea what labor unions are all about and you obviously have no idea of the collective bargaining process. Stop listening to those conservative talk show hosts (many of whom are in unions themselves) who continually bash unions and read about labor unions on the AFL-CIO's website. It's just how it is in the real world. Whether you want to admit it or not, the people in here who are in labor unions are speaking the truth.
http://www.aflcio.org/

You're right, "demoting" your volunteer officers would be a crime. Much like this...