dave0820

When I was a FF in Peekskill, we could usually tell by the first due drivers tone of voice how bad the situation was. When I was in NH the first due engine gave a windshield size up usually based on 3 sides, then dispatch repeated the report. A second report would usually be given when the officer got out and did a more in depth investigation into the situation and conditions. This happened every time, it was like second nature there. Many times mutual aid departments would stat to don turnout gear and mount up based on the size up and in anticipation of 1st or 2nd alarm.

Today September 29 is NRFD Fallen FF Keith Morris's 31st Birthday. Happy Birthday To Keith Morris. Miss U. RIP.

Being a former volunteer firefighter and a career firefighter for the last 23 years (an officer for the last 15), here is my take on it:
Being career does not make you any better than being volunteer. I know some volunteer departments in my old hometown (Dutchess County NY) where everyone is well certified and competent, and they show up very rapidly when the tones go off. Heck, some of those guys are better trained than the people I currently work with.
It all has to do with the following and applies to both volunteer and career departments:
Leadership -- if the department's leadership does not make sure that there is a means to get their membership trained and encourages it, the department will never be functional.
Membership -- if you can't get enough people to adequately staff the vehicles when called, then the department will not be functional.
Political Support -- if you can't get the support of your commissioners or supervising governmental entity, the department will not be functional.
Fire Prevention -- if the department or municipality doesn't take fire prevention seriously and does not have a good inspection program in place where property owners are held accountable, there will be fire safety issues.
I've seen terrible volunteer departments and I've seen terrible career departments. I've also seen great career departments and volunteer departments that would put most career departments to shame. I really don't think it has anything to do with volunteer vs. career as a whole, but the specific area in NJ.
I've seen many departments here in Florida go from volunteer to career and shut down/disband firehouses completely so they could pay the staff of 2 firefighters on an engine for each of the other stations covering a larger area. Yes, you have 100% assurance a unit will respond immediately, but you have less units and longer response times in those areas where the fire stations were shut down.
This is just my 2 cents.

No doubt and as gamewell45 correctly pointed out, those personalities are on both sides.
However, like many things in life, how you conduct yourself can often have a big influence on how others view and treat you. If you are squared away as a volunteer firefighter and/or fire department, then the vast majority of career firefighters will not have an issue. Now, if you act like a clown, don't know how to do the job or won't do the job, act more like a social club than a fire department, then they're will likely be some animosity - especially if you start playing the "we're all the same" card.
I work in a small career department in a small urban city surrounded by a good dozen volunteer fire departments who's districts directly border the city and few more close by. We pretty much have no choice but to use the volunteers if we need assistance with a fire. One is pretty squared away and we tend to call them first. A few more are ok and we use them when needed. A few more are pretty much posers and we've had issues with them when we've worked with them.
We maintain a pretty good relationship with most of the departments around us, but when you show up at our fire and your engine company gives us the "you want us to go.....in there and do....what?" look, we aren't going to view you favorably and you won't be invited back.
We don't get invited to many out of town calls for whatever reason, but when the neighbors do extend the invitation, we expect to work along side of you and not in place of you. We also expect that your IC (the fire chief) will not be drunk and require our duty chief and another mutual aid chief to assume control of the incident before somebody gets needlessly hurt or killed! When this is the case, we aren't going to view you favorably.
And for the record, I spent 9 years as a volunteer before getting hired 11 years ago.

I would think that this issue should be focused on Seaside Heights and the surrounding area. Now as stated some Vols are good, some are bad. Some career are good, some are bad. we all know this. The heart of the issue is should Seaside Heights have a career department? Well yes they should. Now i know that for 9-10 months of the year it is a little slower but for those few summer months that place is bigger then alot of our districts. We have all been down the shore and been to these communities. you know that they are all older buildings and mostly wood frame constrution. When one goes up you have to deal with that sea breeze and the problems it can cause. If this fire had happened on Aug 11th, we would be talking about a completely diffrent story here. they needed guys on scene quickly and they needed alot of them. They know that the clock in their district runs faster because of that sea breeze and the building construction. The one obstical is how to pay for it. Well when you have the amount of money that comes into that place it should not even be a question. Taxes from the buisness should help cover the cost. For all the people who complain that taxes are too high and so on, just look at what that place was like on a summer night and what things cost. The money was there. The community took some short cuts on the boardwalk rebuild and this is what happened. The cash cow of the area is now gone. either they will rebuild or some other place will take its place.

I was in Gilford next town over from Laconia. Gilford Fire Rescue is a very well trained, well prepared fire department. I learned so much there.

From what I have heard about this electrical fire, unless someone called it in when the problem first started happening it would not made much of a difference. People forget you had 30 MPH winds driving that fire so once flame broke out the theory of fire doubling every minute went out the window.
I have heard of plenty of large fires were paid departments were completely in charge and they still lost a lot. I have heard paid departments cancel mutual aid just to end up calling them back 10 minutes later as they are loosing the building.
No volunteers are not perfect but no one is. In this current world especially in our situation where we have a large mix of paid and volunteer departments we need to stop fighting one another and work with each other to get the job done.
Believe it or not volunteers will support paid firefighters MORE when they are not A**holes back at them.

(Ret) FDNY Battalion Chief Salka's response:
http://mobile.firehouse.com/blog/11152215/john-salka-reacts-to-boston-globe-article-on-fire-department-staffing

I may have started this topic but lets not forget I am also a Moderator. Lets keep the personal jabs out of the discussion and let each other share their opinions and beliefs, this is un-professional to say the least and these type of personal attacks have no merrit either in this discussion or this site. No more personal insults or warnings will go out.
Please carry on the informative part of this discussion and keep personal insults out of it. Thank you.

Do what you must, as for me I will NEVER refuse a call for help no matter who it's from.
Stay Safe

1) There are approximatly 14 combo depts in Westchester that the number of volunteers has either drimaticly declined or has stopped responding alltogether ans no additional career members have been added, they just make the few career members do it all and violate 2in 2out and other standards and just hope they never get caught.
2) So if you are a career FF in dept #A and volunteer in Dept. #Z that does not potentially hurt the career brother? I think many of the statements here talk about how Brothers are not just in your dept.
3) Ok so 12 issues x 5 locals equals 60 new locals/ year. with over 34,000 fire depts in America, It will take over 566 years to convert all of them....Dont hold your breath waiting. Also I know a couiple of locals that have left and have come back (more than once) but they still get listed. And these are depts that were paid for 100 years. it just they were not IAFF locals.
4) The dept is also in violation of the Federal FLSA. And if they get caught they will have to pay OT wages for all the volunteer hours that that member and others volunteered once they were hired. This has come to millions and the member does not have to report it or even "want it". He still will get paid.

Here is where I do not agree with some of you guys...this is a bit wrong on all levels. If you are career in a combination department and you feel "threatened" by the volunteers that might "take your job away" there is more issues there then you know. If I was a volunteer in a career combination department I would not be trying to take anyones job. I would have my resume in for when there are openings from retirement or someone moving out of the area, but I would never try to back-stab a brother who is already being paid for the job. I am still going to be volunteer and have tremendous pride in being able to respond to calls and help where I can, but would never step on the toes of the career crew, or back-stab them in any way. If this is happening; SHAME on those members.
But on the other hand; SHAME on those career guys simply for thinking that just because a volunteer shows up, they are taking the "fork" out of your mouths. They are showing up to help you, back you up and make sure you all go home at the end of the shift so you CAN pick up that fork with your family. We should alll WORK TOGETHER, dont you think??? This thinking is all wrong and I am not trying to hurt anyones feelings here either, but those of us volunteers that take pride in our training and pride in our ability to help others only want to help; both the people we serve and our career brothers/sisters who are severely under-staffed and under-funded. I for one dont want to see any ONE career firefighter have to do EVERYTHING alone, I want to help, I want to make sure they dont get hurt, not back-stab them.
Maybe I am wrong in this line of thinking and i know there are those scum out there trying to take your job from you, everyone wants to be career firefighter and support their families doing a job they LOVE, but it shouldnt divide us...shouldnt it?

Well I guess it's time for pitchforks and torches again...
I never could get the argument that volunteers are "taking food out of" a paid members mouth. If you're a career member in a combo dept, you show up, do your job for X number of hours and you go home. You get paid for the hours you work (the hours your contract states your entitled to at the salary you agreed to) no matter how many volunteers show up, or don't. How then are volunteers taking food out of anyone's mouth? And let's be clear overtime is NOT an entitlement, that's why it's called overtime.
Now a paid member volunteering in a combo dept. is quite another story if his volunteer service directly impacts a career members ability to earn his base salary.
As I stated earlier on, the most obvious (and detrimental) sign of the decline of brotherhood is the relationship between career and volunteer members. The more we accept or promote the divisive rationales like volunteers "take food" out of anyone's mouth or career members "are only in it for the money" the larger the gap and problems will grow
Fire away

More than a few years ago, talking with someone from a different department than I was in, he told me of a plan to renovate part of their meeting hall into a new day room. I asked why as the building had recently had an extension put on that added a new day room as well as other rooms. His answer was so that the volunteers would have somewhere to hang out. I had been to that station and sat in the day room with both volunteer and paid firefighters, so this was kind of confusing. However the clear sentiment was one of building a wall of separation.
This is not brotherhood.
The idea that you might have two groups in the same firehouse hanging out in two different rooms then meeting in the dark of night on the apparatus floor and expecting to work as a cohesive crew makes no sense to me. I suppose this is a slightly more dramatic form of everyone off on their own with cellphones or laptops.
However the guy who told me of the two day rooms plan plan is a brother. We have been to training together and later at fires and other calls together. I would work side by side with him again any time. He is now a career firefighter.

Thank you cogs, you beat me to it.
I never knew that about him, but I will watch all of his movies now and respect him a lot more. That to me is a true test of brotherhood...here you have a famous actor, successfull, he could have very easily made a big spectacle out of it with video cameras and taking pictures of him in his gear shaking babies and kissing hands and "helping" his former work buddies dig through the pile. But he didnt. He kept his identity secret and did what he knew was right and went to look for the guys that were lost and never made it public. THATS brotherhood.

Pretty fitting here I think......

Do you recognize this man? Do you know his name?

Lots of people know he’s an actor, and that his name is Steve Buscemi.

What very few people realize is that he was once one of New York’s Bravest.

In 1976 Steve Buscemi took the FDNY civil service test when he was just 18 years old. In 1980 Steve Buscemi became a New York City Firefighter.

For four years, Buscemi served on one of FDNY's busiest, Engine Co. 55 in Manhattan's Little Italy. He later left the fire service to become a successful actor, writer and director.

After 9/11/2001... Brother Buscemi returned to FDNY Engine 55.

On September 12, 2001 and for several days following Brother Steve worked 12-hour shifts alongside other firefighters digging and sifting through the rubble from the World Trade Center looking for survivors.

Very few photographs and no interviews exist because he declined them. He wasn't there for the publicity.

In 2003 he also gave a speech at a union rally supporting higher wages for firefighters and to stop fire houses from closing. He got arrested along with other firefighters.

Also not very well known is that in 2012 Brother Buscemi showed up in Breezy Point, NY and quietly assisted in the clean-up efforts of the damage and mass destruction left by Super Storm Sandy.

Once a brother, always a brother!

Just so we're clear… this guy is a Badass !!!

Tip of the helmet Brother Steve!

Jonathan Lusk
Publisher ~ Brotherhood of Fire
Captain ~ Fresno Fire, CA ~ E18C

“Brotherhood Strong”

I've generally used "working" when it relates to a fire that is taking off and on it's way to consuming everything in it's path. I've said "active" when rolling up on a car with just the engine compartment going, or a small semi or mostly contained fire in a building.
Not sure if what I'm transmitting or explaining is right, it's just how I try to decipher what we got.

The brotherhood is still there. However social media outlets where guys can go and cry about mundane immature stuff that should be kept in house and worked out has ruined a lot of it.
And - no disrespect to this website - places like this where everyone climbs on to their high horses and points fingers PUBLICLY instead of manning up and shooting a brother a private message, calling them or dropping in to their firehouse to talk to them man to man has ruined a lot of what we all used to know.
I appreciate the things I have learned here and on other websites. I have made great friends and taken what I picked up here and put it to good use. However, there has been more drama for me and my department because of sites like this, Facebook and Myspace when it was still around. I have been accused of doing things I didn't. My department and members of it have been falsely or inaccurately implicated in things they didn't do. Friendships and professional relationships with neighboring departments have been tested, strained or ruined when someone sees/hears something and reacts to it before knowing the facts.
We live in the information age. Everyone can hide behind a keyboard and be an expert on everything. They can call someone out for something with little to no facts, denouncing them to their easily impressionable audience.
Let this be a lesson to all of you up and coming members of the fire service - WORK YOUR PROBLEMS OUT WITHIN THE CONFINES OF YOUR FIREHOUSE! If you can't say something to someone face to face, DON'T SAY IT!
And to be "politically correct," we're not a brotherhood anymore. Many females have joined our ranks and proven to be exceptional parts of our department families. I like to say that the fire department is a family, and like the families we've been born into, we don't always agree, we don't even always like each other, but at the end of the day - we are (or should be) there for one another when the chips are down.
I'm done. Thanks for listening.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I am not always liked, and often say things that offend people. It comes with a deep sense of pride in what I do and the department I am proud to be a part of. But, at the end of the day, I can sleep knowing I do what is best for my people and what's in the best interest of keeping our department going strong for years to come.

Its not the same outside of NYC. Guy I was carpooling with stopped at firehouse I believe in greenburgh, it was off 119 about a block in on the right side of the street. We asked if it would be ok to leave a car there as we both were driving to work together. What were we told? Ask the chief?! Ask the Chief? We were parking a hyundai or an infiniti not a motorhome 24/7. Ironically, went to Greenburgh PD, were told by a sgt there, NO PROBLEM, if you have any issues come inside. We had a guy who was on his Harley stop at firehouse who rode in from Cali for 9/11. He wanted to obviously go downtown, we insisted he leave bike in quarters as we couldn't guarantee parking or safety of the bike downtown, smaller firehouses etc. He was extremely grateful. I was taught you always treat anyone who isn't assigned to your firehouse as a guest, the mechanic, the radio repairman, even the exterminator all given the offer of coffee something to eat, some heat or ac, anything so when he remembers YOUR firehouse he says those guys are great!

In a comparison of Brotherhood today vs the 70s or 80s here's a story. Maybe this gives an idea of how things have changed.
Last year or so I was invited to visit a firehouse, which actually is one of the busiest in Connecticut. My brother was a career firefighter there during the late 70s and into the 80s. In the kitchen was this very large table. Everybody ate there. Once in awhile he would invite me down to visit. The jokes, laughter, and entertainment was priceless. Everybody joined in except maybe the "probie" who was told to keep his mouth shut until he proves himself.
When I went down to that same firehouse, the guy that invited me showed me the kitchen where I used to join the members. Then he just left me. It was quite different from what I remembered back in those days. Nobody was talking. Either they were on their cell phones texting or talking, or watching a TV. Also, I noticed gone was that big kitchen table that everybody used to share the meal on. Now every individual was sitting by themselves with their own little table in front of them. The only guy that talked to me was the Captain who I had known for years and was good friends with his brother.
I walked in as a retired firefighter from another city in Connecticut. Yeah, I'm an old guy now. No more fires for me and I remember when we didn't go to medical calls. What little hair I have left is all white now and my belly isn't as tight as it should be. I walk a little slower too, but you would think I was some bum off the street. If it wasn't for thaty captain that I knew, I would have left after ten minutes because I felt very uncorfortable there. Nobody even asked about my brother who spent maybe 15 years there and retired as a B/C. (and he did have a good reputation).
A little different story to compare. About two years ago the New London, Ct Fire Dept transported me to the hospital in New London for a medical condition. During the two weeks I was there, guys from the job, who I didn't even know stopped by. Everyday, somebody was there. They would bring me coffees etc. They were concerned for my car where I had to leave it and "they" brought it to the firehouse parking lot where it was much safer. Those guys from New London F.D. treated me great. In this case, I saw that Brotherhood is Alive and Well. And every once in awhile, they invite me to the firehouse, as a Retired Brother, and they are not concerned that maybe my belly isn't as tight as it used to be.
And I have to say, my Brothers always welcome me to the firehouse where I spent a few years on the job there. Most I of them I never worked with, but they treat me good.
I was a volunteer firefighter in a combo dept back in the early 70s. We all got along great, volunteer and paid. When I moved to another part of Connecticut in those 70s, I entered a War Zone. People I didn't even know hated me for the job I did. It still really hasn't changed. Brotherhood doesn't exist. Same today as it was then.
My brother who retired from that very busy dept I mentioned earlier as a Battalion Chief, wanted to join the local volunteer dept when he moved up to this area. He lived about a block away from the firehouse, was able to go to calls 24/7, and always had a mop in his hand to clean up after any event. I thought that this small dept had won the lottery when they got him. He had been a driver and officer on the exact same type of Ladder truck during his career that they had. "His orders were; "Don't you touch that Ladder Truck".
One time at a mutual aid fire they couldn't get the ladder down. Guess who figured out what was wrong and was able to get it down ? On another night that Ladder truck was requested to respond mutual aid to another fire. He was at the firehouse with three other younger members who couldn't operate that truck. The chief had been out plowing snow and told him face to face, "Don't you touch that ladder truck". As a result, that ladder truck NEVER responded to that fire. He was also never allowed to drive any of the other trucks. He stuck it out for about two years. I would have lasted two weeks, maybe !
There are many more stories both good and bad. The term Brotherhood should not even be questioned. It should just be there. When you work together and you survive together, Brotherhood takes on a thing of its own. You work together through good and bad times. If you talk about each other, it was in a joking manner. Today because of society, that's not always possible. In my opinion as a result instead of uniting it has created dividing.
For the younger people out there whether career or volunteer, it may be hard to understand how different and how great it once was. I can only say, just take my word for it.

Brotherhood Test:
Here's how you test a firehouse to see if they are Brothers or not.
Send your daughter to a firehouse at 0200 with a flat tire and explaining that her father is a firefighter and he is working tonight.
If they point to a 24hr towing service down the street or give her the number for AAA, they are not Brothers.
If they tell her to pull around back, change the flat, change the oil, rotate the tires, wash the windshield, and give her a cup of coffee and a piece of cake. Then they are Brothers.

My kids are all grown now, but when they were younger and before cell phones, I always told them that if for any reason they were in trouble and needed help, go the nearest fire station and tell them that their dad is a fireman and they would help them. I would hope that fire fighters today with young kids still have that feeling.

My kids are all grown now, but when they were younger and before cell phones, I always told them that if for any reason they were in trouble and needed help, go the nearest fire station and tell them that their dad is a fireman and they would help them. I would hope that fire fighters today with young kids still have that feeling.

I've been out of the fire service for 18 years now and I know things have changed a lot, but I am from the generation of firefighter that considered each other brothers and now sisters too. When I see someone I don't know wearing a FD shirt, I still will call him brother. When I see an officer even those that are good friends or even relatives I always address them the first time we speak by their rank. I think it's a sign of respect. I remember when just being a member of a fire department brought you a certain amount of respect. I do agree that socializing with members of your department helps to bring members together and make it more of a brotherhood. I wish all my brothers and sisters much success and hope everyone stays safe.

You know this is quite simple when you come right down to it. Brotherhood is really just remembering to follow a few core tenets:
Treat others as you want to be treated.
Remember we're here to serve so put others above yourself
The wants and needs of the many outweigh the wants and needs of the few...or the one.
Everyone has a place to serve and all service is valuable and important even if only in small amounts.
I am who and what I am in the fire service because of those who came before me and those who serve with me.
WE are the fire service, I am only one very small part of it.