791075

In a city the size and make up of New Rochelle there is plenty of POLICE work for cops to do supposedly, maybe they should stick to that since it is what the taxpayers are paying for. If they are looking to help at a fire scene, concentrate on clearing all the illegally parked cars out of the way so we can place our rigs where they belong. They can also assist with crowd control and helping the people that self evacuated since they have been thru a pretty traumatic experience. It would be a terrible thing for a P.O. to suffer any injury acting outside of his scope, and they dont need to breathe that crap in, they have enough hazards doing their job.

Shoot...ready...aim!

Where's the one about why Trucks are dispatched to the highway with the Engine? We are there to block the road for the Engine, just like traffic cones we are dispensable.
Who closes the door when you leave on another EMS call? Who finishes the meal when you go out for a tummy ache? The truck has been taking care of the engine since horses pooped in firehouses!!!

Sorry Brother but I have to take exception to this post. While covering both Engine and Truck Companies for close to 30yrs I must say "Truckies" truly are nothing but a Fireman's Helper. Your still Loved though! I'm always concerned for my Brother "Ladderman" about the inside stream striking them on the outside when they're taking windows! No seriously you Truckies are awesome you always have fresh cold bottles of water for us Engine Grunts when we come out for a "Blow" and a spare bottle waiting for us. "Tally Ho" Bro!

In a city the size and make up of New Rochelle there is plenty of POLICE work for cops to do supposedly, maybe they should stick to that since it is what the taxpayers are paying for. If they are looking to help at a fire scene, concentrate on clearing all the illegally parked cars out of the way so we can place our rigs where they belong. They can also assist with crowd control and helping the people that self evacuated since they have been thru a pretty traumatic experience. It would be a terrible thing for a P.O. to suffer any injury acting outside of his scope, and they dont need to breathe that crap in, they have enough hazards doing their job.

In a city the size and make up of New Rochelle there is plenty of POLICE work for cops to do supposedly, maybe they should stick to that since it is what the taxpayers are paying for. If they are looking to help at a fire scene, concentrate on clearing all the illegally parked cars out of the way so we can place our rigs where they belong. They can also assist with crowd control and helping the people that self evacuated since they have been thru a pretty traumatic experience. It would be a terrible thing for a P.O. to suffer any injury acting outside of his scope, and they dont need to breathe that crap in, they have enough hazards doing their job.

If your info is correct then you would have been walking down those hallways in elementary school when I was crawling down the ones on fire. Sorry for the mistake

A 99 year old explorer! Gotta love the dedication.

Your killing me here Moose! I said I was done and you pulled me back in!Your second sentence says it all. I like to think that most of the topics I post will and should be thought about and deciphered. Almost like the 24 hour rule replying to some touchy email received. Step back, read, re-read and think. It just amazes me that one person who is in a supervisory role here thinks that (A) I along with all FD members dislike cops. Absurd and totally out of line. ( B ) it is ok to be DISPATCHED to a call that you are not trained or suited for. I too am in a supervisory role and have had plenty of discussions with my superiors over calls I do not feel my men were prepared for. I know when I accepted the promotion that I also accepted the fact that I will do what it takes to return my Brothers home the next morning the same way they showed up the morning before.
Our Job as well as I would say the majority of FD's have written SOP's for all calls we respond to. Why do we have written SOP's? The FD works as a team to mitigate any and all calls we respond to. Wether you are first due truck ( forcible entry, fire floor and OV ) to second truck ( forcible entry, floor above and coordinated ventilation for the engines ) first engine ( line placement ) second engine ( water source, backup first line ) third engine ( second handline to back up ) and so on down the line.
What could a PD SOP dictate for the first due officer to a job? Do they even have an SOP or are they flying by the seat of their pants? I mean really? Do you honestly believe we are "attacking " the law enforcement community here?

First off I can't believe you would rate my content and knowledge based on what my affiliation title says. How about almost 20 years in the second busiest FD in Westchester. 6 years as a fire officer. Assigned to all 3 truck companies in my city where the real men do work over the last 18 years. ( sorry engine brothers ) I was probably crawling down hallways while you were walking down hallways in junior high school.
It also says I'm 99 years old, do you think that is real?

I have no "vile" towords any police officer, and if there is a situation that a LEO deserves accolades Im one of the people doing it. You seem to be missing one point yourself...we are concerned for the welfare of ANY first responder that takes it upon themselves to enter an IDLH atmosphere without any information (such as the CO incident). With all of the talk about "chemical assisted suicides", and drug labs with deadly gasses...WHAT would make someone with no airway protection enter in to a situation like that? Regardless of known life hazards?? You could instantly drop dead of exposure if you tried to run into a chemical suicide or drug lab gone bad situation. There was a situation in NY not too long ago where EMS were dispatched to a "Man Down" call. When they arrived the wife was just outside the closed front door saying her husband is on the floor just inside the door and she doesnt know any other way in to get to him...wait, you live there, and dont know any other way in??? That should have stopped EMS there but they forced the door/victim open enough to get to him and 2 medics dropped dead from fumes coming from an illegal drug lab in the living room. The wife knew this and thats why she was not trying to get to her husband.
Point in case- we dont know what is going on inside the house in situations like this; could be just CO, could be a mass chemical suicide, could be a group of druggies fallen victim to their own drug lab, could be ANYTHING.
Police have vests, guns, tazers and other things to handle perps.
Firefighters have gear, air packs, and other tools to fight fires and make rescues.
A TRAINED police officer should be able to look at all the info, the area they are responding to, and have enough sense to say "Ok, I will give FD a few minutes to get here and see where I am at at that point". Just like if I roll up to my bank, look throught he window and see a masked man holding a gun to the tellers head, I will have enough sense to say "Ok, Im going to hold all these people out of the bank and call PD and wait for them to charge in there."
There are situations where it is necessary for us to make split second decisions, like Seth mentioned about the PD arriving on scene of a house fire, kids trapped and FD 15 minutes out...If it were me I would most certainly run in and ATTEMPT to make a rescue any way I could, I am human, all training and uniforms and job titles asside...if I am on scene and other humans are in trouble I will want to help.
No one here hates cops. I believe everyone here was confused over your initial post and what your intent was exactly. I myself saw this post when no one had answered yet and I waited for others to respond to see if they knew what you were asking, or wanted to discuss. Just sayin.

This is all I see here so this will be my last post. See you on the fire floor or the floor above where the real men work!!!

Are we not trained in risk vs reward? If a cop is dispatched to a rural part of the county and knows FD is quite a distance away then he/she must decide the risk vs reward. If a cop is dispatched to a job in a city jurisdiction and knows full well that FD is right behind them then that too is a risk vs reward decision. At the end of the day it is up to our training which includes risk vs reward and not just fire ops or police ops to base our decisions. I know my company and the Brothers who I work with will get the best decision I can make at that moment and that's all I can promise.

Do you really think the dispatch should sound like this? Sector 9 Sector 11 respond to a reported structure fire at 234 maryjane lane FD has been notified. We all know PD will respond to a call much faster than FD. Fact of life and non disputable. Yes we are all in it to help. I would also think that those of us who have made a legit rescue ( i do have a class 2 from my job ) don't consider themselves a hero. As a matter of fact at the job i was awarded the medal from I avoided the press like the plague. Thats not why I do it and I would like to think it's not why 95% of this forum does it. Do you really want to put yourself in a position to which you are not trained and be remembered as a hero? Do we really need to pull up to a job and have to pull 2 cops out first before the people that occupied the home. You can bet your last paycheck it will be the cop I'm grabbing before the civilian. We can't do it all and the uniform comes first. I just can't believe that professional people on this forum have their heads buried this deep in the sand. They did not drive past this call, they were dispatched to it.

Wow have you guys clearly misunderstood the intentions of the story. I for one have no personal problem with any law enforcement agency or specific law enforcement officer. I have countless friends who are cops in just about every agency in our local area. When you guys jump all over the "FD hates PD " bandwagon it is time to look in the mirror and ask yourself WT heck. The bottom line of my posting was to have the people who put themselves and others in harms way when they are not suited to maybe step back a little and think. I really don't give a rats behind about the ones who defend these types of actions. There will never be any type of incident that will change their minds. It must be the capes that are handed out at graduation. It's the ones I will never read about that the message sunk in. Just because the public hates cops does not mean that fire personel does as well. Pathetic!!!!

Any responder (PD, FD, EMS....) who does not have training to understand if they are being helpful or not because of there actions is not helping.
Not understanding if busting open doors or windows will improve smoke conditions or cause a back draft or flashover might save a victim or doom a victim.
A number of years ago I ended up on a scene where a police officer vented a window while his partner was inside searching. It caused either a backdraft or a flashover (dont know didnt get there till a few minutes after that). The officer was a close friend of my partner and before I intubated him he asked my partner to tell his wife and kids goodbye andhe loved them. The next day my partner quit as a medic.
Good intentions are great, but why do we do all kinds of training and have rules, and SOP's if the moment the scene turns bad we just rush in and ignore everything we learned (or did we fail to train our personnel and have sop's)?

So new Rochelle catches a job in the projects last night and this is the outcome. Just found this on another site and copied and pasted it. I can tell you for sure that when my company responds to a EDP or suicide attempt or some other dangerous call and PD advises to wait until scene is secure before entry I do just that. I have also been on location first before the arrival of PD and stood fast and waited. I do not know if the person I am responding to is injured or dead and I really don't care at that point. I do know that my guys won't end up injured or dead by my stupid decision to enter a scene I can't control. Do FD's really need to get on the air to advise PD to stand by until scene is safe or should they be grown ups and realize it's out of their hands? Do these officers really need to be on the fire floor? Maybe we should wait for the bagpipes to decide.
Two New Rochelle Police Officers Injured In Fire
By James O'Toole on Mon, 06/24/2013 - 04:41
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A Sunday evening fire at 590 Fifth avenue sent two New Rochelle Police officers to Sound Shore Medical center for treatment.There injuries are not serious according to fire department radio reports.
The fire broke out in a fifth floor apartment that was not occupied at the time of the fire.The fire was contained to one apartment. Some other apartments got smoke damage and water damage.Most people returned to there apartments after the fire department gave the all clear

Date:6/23/13
Time:2147 hrs
Location:590 5th ave Macleay apts.
Units:E23,21,22,24, L13,TL11,2301,2302,2306,30a 2

Description:Units dispatched to the above address at approx 2147 for a reported apt. fire.
60 recieving additional calls 2302 adds the 4th Engine (E24).
2302 calling 10 75 for fire on the 5th floor apt 5J with heavy smoke on the upper floors.
Stanpipes were made and fire was contained to one apartment using 2 lines
All searches negative,building vented and fire U/C approx 2300.
E25 and L12 sat this one out at St.3 covering the city.

Police officers are extensivly trained and equipped to make traffic stops. While they may or may not be "more dangerious" they can and do make a size-up that is intended to keep them safe. If they are not trained and equipped to handle a toxic & potentially flammable environment they can not make a size up and while it may occur less often the CO incident is more dangerious. Again apples to oranges?
You are intitled to your opinion, but based on your statements you just failed almost every station of your NYS EMT-P exam:
My scenario for your Patient Assessment station:
Neighbors report a man down in a house.
You and your partner arrive 1st to this medical emergency
The 1st critical fail on the states check list is....................................IS THE SCENE SAFE?
If you asked the question (as required to become/continue as an EMT or Medic) and I answered their is a car running in the attached garage and the neighbors are yelling "HURRY I THINK HE STOPPED BREATHING"
What do you do?
In the real world your answer affects your life, but here in the classroom it affects your ability to become or stay an EMT or paramedic.
Never said they are useless. In fact they are required by code. So along with promoting them, we should be teaching about running cars and grills in the house.

I am not bashing the Police Officers involved. I think what they did just proves how most put service above self. But in the 2-3 minutes from the time PD arrived to the time the FD arrived, I truly don't think it would have a major affect on the victims.
With that said, this incident highlights why we should be considering CO detectors for EMS and PD personnel. Way too often, both of these agencies respond to medical calls or welfare checks, only to find the problem to be a Carbon Monoxide incident. They're fairly inexpensive, small enough to put almost anywhere and are almost idiot-proof.
We have to look out for ourselves, who else is going to?

What about the 4 firefighters that are on duty that would have been first due to this call?

Personally I can tell you I have never gone in when arriving first ahead of FD on a FD job. especially CO call. Not my job to go in. Yes people could be in danger or down but it's not my job. I leave it to FD and standby outside. If they need me for something they can let me know. My thinking is why go in if someone is ready down they are already in a bad situation and overcome. Ill just be another person down and creating more problems. FD is around for a reason. Just my 2 cents

No it does not and you know it. Apples vs. Oranges.....big difference between a toxic gas and an ambush
Sorry, but its generally not the cops job to go into an IDLH atmosphere and it is also not his job to get killed at work.
No, there is no excuse for that.
How about telling people not to have their cars running over night in the garage.

1) if you can't anylyze it as part of your SIZE-UP, then you need to get another line of work.
It's easy to anylyze an incidents afterwards, but when you're in the moment, you do what you are trained to do.
2) I am sure they were never trained to do what they did.
I wont go into details or rehash it. But in one incident the law was violated when responders entered an IDLH atmosphere and in the other incident the law was violated when responders entered an IDLH atmosphere. The difference is in this case the responders were lucky.
Yes 3 are alive, but the FD could have pulled up and had 5 down and that would have doomed the 3 original victims, as they would have most likely goneafter the down officers 1st.

So lets forget all our training and just run in?
A traffic vest is a big difference from an SCBA
You are correct we don't know what info they got. If it was off duty FF's we would be saying the exact same thing.
So lets get ride of all PPE and training.We could just risk it to save someone.
As a supervisor, I have a responsability to my personnel to send them home at the end of the shift (or call). If we can save someone after evaluating and minimizing the risks (thru PPE) then lets do it otherwise we are not providing a service to the community.
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