FFPCogs

3 hours ago, Bnechis said:

Yes the community must decide, but they must also be given information that is truthful. We just witnessed in Portchester the mayor and chief swear they had 150 interior volunteers, when the records show less than 60. They said, don't worry, the dept. didn't need career personnel, but in two months time their are now mounting complaints that the response times are noticeably worst. If the dept. lies to itself and the public, how can the public make a proper judgement?

 

you are correct that this attitude exists, but in far to many VFD the real threat to the members is, declining membership, failing to respond in a timely manner and lack of training.

To your last point here, you'll get no argument from me, but those members that are left often have the mentality that "their" VFD is done for if career FFs are hired. The fact that the membership has dwindled and newer members are becoming harder and harder to come by has little to do with this reaction.

On your first point, absolutely. Many VFDs stretch the truth to the breaking point and beyond to show adequate personnel and thus give the residents a false sense of security. Some of this I suspect goes to the "us" vs "them" mentality as discussed earlier, while a good deal more has to do with wanting to maintain the status quo and perks (material and otherwise) that come with it. 

In the end what we all should be striving for is a balance. Adequate personnel to respond effectively 24/7 while keeping costs in check, standardized training and certification requirements to help ensure at least a minimum standard of competency and an environment where ALL firefighters can flourish if they are so inclined regardless of pay status so that those served are served well. 

51 minutes ago, fdalumnus said:

 

I recently spoke to an old friend of mine whose is a career ff in one municipality while being a fire commissioner and and volunteer in the town he resides in. Told me his vfd has trouble just getting a rig out the door. I suggested it may be time to hire. His response was his taxes were close to 20k a year, how much more can the citizens afford. I told him whre I worked (combo dept w/ 3 around the clock} the average homeowner paid about three hundred dollars a year in fire taxes. Of course the people with the mansions paid lots more, but they were happy to pay, they wanted service. Conversation ended. 

 

 

In some communities people are willing to pay an increase for paid firefighters, in others they are not, no matter how small that increase might be. That is their choice and it is they that have to live with that decision.  Now I don't know anything about this town from the video, nor will I comment on their operations here...I wasn't there, and video or not, there are factors which I may not know that may have impacted this particular fire. If I lived in this (or any) community and the VFD always ended up with the same or similar results, than you bet your a$$ I'd be asking some questions and demanding some answers. 

From my own experience, one of the major factors that comes up when the idea of adding some career staffing is tossed about, beyond the money, is a resistance on the part of many volunteers. This resistance stems from fairly common belief among vollys that this step is the beginning of the end for their VFDs. It may not be right, prudent, proper, logical or whatever, but the feeling that once the door opens the days of the volunteers are numbered is very real...and it does influence decisions. And quite frankly it is not without at least a modicum of supporting evidence that this is true in some cases. This brings me back to my earlier post. While we all should be thinking about those we serve first, we often don't and we justify that with any number of reasons, including a fear of being eliminated over time. The animosity and "us" against "them" mentality which so permeates the fire service today has created this environment and the negative results that stem from it. No matter how "right" an argument may be the simple reality is all the stakeholders have to be on board so that those who are served are served in THEIR best interest. It is a travesty that this is so often overlooked in the pursuit of this or that agenda. There is much that binds us all as firefighters, and nothing more so than our common mission of protecting life and property, but we have let so much interfere with that truth and become so entrenched on our "side" of the divide that it sometimes seems impossible to bridge the gap. But that gap can be bridged with a little effort...and more importantly, a little courage to do what best for our citizens instead of ourselves.. 

On 8/8/2016 at 0:35 PM, AFS1970 said:

 

20 hours ago, AFS1970 said:

As for the scales being weighted to the union, yes they are. However I don't blame the union for this. The VFD's over the years created a system where non response became the rule not the example. There were many factors that contributed to this, too many to list here. Some are systemic and not specific to Stamford by a long shot. The fact of the matter is that adapting back to a response norm is proving difficult. I think the saving grace will be new members who did not know the old system, because the dinosaurs are just sitting in their tar pits waiting to become fossils.

I don't blame the union either, nor do I think they are a scapegoat, the leadership of 786  is just doing what they should be doing...and that is looking out for their membership and expanding it if possible. No, while I might have issue with some of the tactics employed over the years, I in no way blame them for the problems with Stamford's VFDs, that fault lies squarely with the VFD leaderships. If there is one complaint it is that in many instances the union seemed unwilling to negotiate a solution, but here again that is a tactical decision on their part and quite frankly a good one at that. I said earlier (and Alan you sat in more than a few BFD meetings where it was plainly stated), the solution for the VFDs is to meet the issues cited by the union head on and accept them as fact. Yeah I know the standard argument...for everything a VFD does to meet a standard, the union will only demand the standards be changed and more difficult to attain. Been hearing that one for years and I'll say now what I said then...that's a bullsh!t excuse. Let's be realistic here, had we done even half of what was proposed on numerous occasions, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Why? Because the VFDs would be responding, they would be trained to a standard and accountable for that training, their officers would be able to show a quantifiable level of competency, apparatus fleets would have been reduced, and a staffing matrix developed and in place utilizing all volunteers collectively to ensure if not 100% station coverage than at least evenings and weekends. It's all here in these 70 odd pages. Nothing was unattainable except the willingness and courage to put the residents first, face the challenges head on and do something about them.

Leaders lead...ours unfortunately, living in their fantasy of a bygone age where politicians and citizens alike favored them, were incapable of doing so. They simply were not up to the task. They refused to see the writing on the wall, despite all of the pleas by some of us to do so before it was too late. In their arrogance they seemed to think they could somehow turn back the clock, ignoring all of the evidence that was right before their eyes to the contrary. Such was their folly, the results of which are now starting to hit home..

You mention that the next generation, not knowing the  old system, will be a saving grace. Well in some respects I think that's may be true, but I think they will find a landscape far different than the one you and I inhabited in terms of what they can and cannot do. In my crystal ball I see a future Stamford volunteer fire service that is nothing more than a "farm team" of bottle changers and hose packers dutifully servicing their career counterparts while awaiting their "turn" to get hired...which by the way most of them won't.

6 hours ago, AFS1970 said:

This letter is only one of two times I ever say all five departments actually agree on something in writing. So if there is a silver lining maybe that is it.

 

That being said, I read the letter and got a totally different feeling from it. I got a feeling of frustration with the city. This is something that the union knows all too well. The VFD's were told certain things and many of them have not been realized yet. I think that to some extent they feel that settling the union contract, regardless of specific language, while not really working at the integration plan is a slap in the face. I don't agree with that but I can understand it. I can also see how they are upset at having a command structure become part of labor negotiation, because while it is certainly a work rule issue, it will effect the VFD's and they see it as a deal between the city and the union with no input from them, despite being told they are stakeholders. As we saw with the Springdale agreement the city has no problem promising the union one thing and the VFD's something else, and letting the courts sort out which contract is more important. The bottom line is that the city is the one dragging its heels on this. There could have been an integration plan in place quite a while ago. That plan could have involved participation from all involved, but it has not happened. To some extent I thin the union has become a convenient scapegoat for the volunteers because of years of animosity.

Alan there is no integration plan because no one wants one, it really is as simple as that. Each "side" in this debacle bears responsibility for the impasse and neither 'side" is willing to give in order to make a plan...no, all would rather take lest they have to give up something. Speaking strictly for myself and how I see things there are two major factors that have created this ongoing drama:

1) The union leadership wants Stamford's volunteers gone, adios, bye bye. Volunteers are an impediment to a unified fire service in their eyes...and I suspect an impediment to increased staffing and union dues

2) The volunteer leaderships are under the extremely misguided impression they have a say in their own destiny any longer. They don't, they forfeited that "right" when the Charter was changed...a change by the way which could have been different or maybe even prevented had those leaderships actually led rather than sat on decades old laurels from their heydays.

Right now there are two diametrically opposed forces at work and the scales are tipped to the floor in favor of the union, if for no other reason than Stamford's career firefighters actually respond to calls each and every time. As you know Alan that cannot be said of all of the VFDs and it was this simple yet undeniable fact that led to the Charter being changed.  

The letter in question is nothing more than a waste of the paper it was printed on.

56 minutes ago, x152 said:

I find it interesting that Stamford volunteers that can't find common ground for issues such as joint-training, accountability, staffing, radio procedures, etc; but always seemed to form a concrete bond and unite whenever the City, Union, or City Fire Department can be attacked.

 

Volunteer firefighters wiring a letter against a tentative agreement after it has been reached in good faith between the City and the Union....

 

The same volunteers then go on to create a telephone campaign to City Representatives to spread more fear and lies about this agreement????

 

I have often read here how volunteers are often unfairly attacked by the big bad IAFF or how the IAFF has these (special pamphlets) that encourage hostility toward volunteers (ALL BS).

 

Yet, here is a glaring and very tangible example of another case were a handful of pathetic volunteer Fire Chiefs have attempted to affect the livelihoods of more than 280 union firefighters. Much like Port Chester, jealousy appears to be the number one value being promoted by some of these organizations. 

 

I can think of no more clear example of why the term "RIVAL ORGANIZATION" exists.

 

Regardless of what action occurs from the Stamford Board of Representatives, the damage done by these 5 clowns will assure an epic fissure will exist between career and volunteers in Stamford. For these 5 ninnies have managed to instantly erode any chance for cohesion within the system. Something that I suspect they knew full well when concocting their letter.

 

 

 

 

Cap, it really does pain me to have to say this...but I agree with you on just about every point

As Alan said studies like these are always going to show the results in the client's favor...those results are bought and paid for by the client so it can be no other way. With that said almost universally volunteers are going to cost less...and that is just a simple mathematical fact. Don't think so, then riddle me this:, Where does the vast majority of the money go in a career FD's budget? Salaries and benefits of the employees, aka career firefighters...that's where. No salaries= a significant reduction in cost. So let's not try to pretend that an all paid service is going to be cheaper...it won't case closed. On the flip side of that coin though is the quality of service provided for the money spent and in this the level of service provided by a paid department is almost universally going to be better than that provided by volunteers, for all of the reason so often cited here...case closed there too. So where does that leave us? After spending tens of thousands of dollars to get the study results you want and then touting those results as fact what has been accomplished? Not much really...wanna know why? Because for all the dollars thrown at the issue of which type of fire protection is better, in the end we don't decide the matter, the citizens do. And that my friends is just as it should be, after all it's their tax dollars and their lives is it not? And since it is, the type of fire protection they get is THEIR choice to make not ours. Point being don't waste your money on studies everybody knows are skewed anyway, they don't rally matter to Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public. Fact is that money could be far better spent dealing with the real issue...

And what is that real issue? That's a gimme boys, ...the real issue is the adversarial relationship that has grown ever more ingrained and vicious between paid and volunteer firefighters in recent times. Well guess what fellas, paid or volunteer, we all do the same job...protect lives and property. Do some do it "better"? sure they do. Do some do it "cheaper"? you bet, but the fact is, we all do it...period  Now you can thump your chest and stomp your feet...why you can even take that study you paid for in hand and go yell your point from the rooftops. Sure get out there and let everyone know how much better trained you are, or how much cheaper you are or any one of a hundred other BS arguments, but in the end, for all of our bombast, that's all it is, bullsh!t...no matter how many studies you pay for to "prove" otherwise. Here's the deal, our self imposed divisions serve no one and have done nothing to better OUR fire service and each and every one of us should be ashamed that we've let it degenerate this far. Worst of all though is that the biggest losers from all of our bullsh!t are those we are all supposed to be here to protect and serve, our citizens ...anybody remember them in all this?

The best thing we as a service could do is to start trying to find ways to work together for the greater good of everyone...firefighters and our citizens alike. Now sure there are many things which divide us, some valid some not, some real some imagined, but there is one thing which unites us all as firefighters and that is our common mission...protecting those in need. High time that came first. High time THEY came first.

I will leave you with this: Many moons ago when I joined my first VFD, standing on the firehouse apron one evening, I was told by a old weathered veteran member, "Remember kid you're not here for you....you're here for them" as he pointed out to the neighborhood around us. In my 36+ years I've never forgotten that piece of advice. So tomorrow morning, as you look in that mirror, let those words ring in your ears as you start your day serving your community. With that as the basis for our actions we will find the common ground we all know is there to make OUR fire service better today than it was yesterday...And that my friends is a win/win no matter what side of the coin you're on.

15 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

  Wouldn't it be better to have Eng 8 operating out of TOR Firehouse and Eng 9 operating out of that other volunteer firehouse. That way EVERYBODY would know when the call came in and respond together.

 

  That's just common sense. Just close down those mobile trailer/firehouses and move those two companies into those Volly houses. The only real problem with that is if there is a problem with the career guys, they can be disciplined. But what can be done if there's a problem with the Volunteer guys.

 

  They move into the same firehouse and close down those mobile trailers.

 

  Training is another question I had. Is EVERYBODY really trained to the same level. Yes Firefighter basic level but didn't most of those Stamford guys have to attend some kind of recruit school ?

I think a little clarification is in order here.. E-9 now operates out of ToR station 2 and has been for a number of months now. This arrangement works because, save a few, ToR members rarely even go to that firehouse anymore. E-8 on the other hand is another matter. While the rig is housed in the firehouse, career members still sleep/live in the trailer. While it is true that there is a level of intransigence on both sides, as I understand it, this has more to do with the union not wanting to share facilities such as the bunk room, day room, offices ect. Last I heard they demanded separate sleeping quarters and a "quiet room" for the career member's use exclusively. Since ToR did not acquiesce to these demands the trailer stays. Depending on the group working, there is a varying degree of interaction between the paid and volunteer staff...some groups have no problem others basically exile themselves. In both Glenbrook and Springdale a similar living arrangement exists between the personnel, although this was agreed upon by all parties when career personnel moved in. Ultimately though and regardless of the fire department involved, this situation is not conducive to building a solid and productive  unified department.  

The bottom line in all this is that NO ONE is free from blame for the conditions that exist. For their part the union has been difficult at best to work with on a number of issues. The volunteer leaderships though do bear the lion's share of the burden in fixing the system. I have always been of the belief that the best way to solve the problem for the volunteer "side" was to accept that every complaint the union levied was true...even if it wasn't. Why? Because by addressing them the volunteers would:

1) enhance the level of service provided to the community

and  

2) remove each argument by the union in turn and thus take away their validity

I will give you one example. Back when Chief Conti was still in office, a Capt of the BFD and myself (also a Capt there at the time) approached him and asked him to give us the same promotional exam given to his career Captains. Of course we would have to be afforded the same list of study materials and time to prepare. We did discuss this a few times to get the process rolling, both with Chief Conti and our Chief and were on the path to making it happen. When asked why did we want to take the exam, our answer was very simple... we had been consistently questioned about our suitability and qualification to be Captains. After a little thought we realized the best way to deal this dilemma was take action, and that action was to take the same promotional exam and hence prove ourselves. I guess you could call it a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Had we been given that opportunity and passed (which I can assure you we would have) we would have put to rest the question of our competence and eliminated one of the major charges so often levied against volunteers in general and us in particular.  We would also have had the ammunition to bring to our volunteer colleagues to get them on board with the idea of standardizing qualifications through testing for rank across the board...an idea we had been promoting for some time at that point.  Unfortunately in the interim Chief Conti resigned and the idea went with him. Any further mention of it thereafter met with stiff resistance from both "sides" of the divide and the idea has unfortunately since faded away into obscurity. Of course I have my suspicions as to why that is so, but they are just my opinions so they mean nothing. 

As of now it seems to me that the volunteers in Stamford will slowly and agonizingly fade out over coming years as more and more will be required of them. With each new requirement more and more volunteers will either rebel and refuse to comply or, for most I suspect,  just throw their hands up and leave. As I said earlier it is sad (and quite frankly infuriating) to watch what so many before us worked so hard to build crumble, especially when so many opportunities to prevent it were squandered. 

1 hour ago, Quickness said:

http://www.local786.org/8-1-16 Vol Letter to BOR.pdf

As I read that letter I could only shake my head in disbelief. I guess all I can say to these chiefs is, you're pissing in the wind boys, the contract's been signed. You had your chance and because of your own arrogance, egos and pettiness you blew it...repeatedly. I really hate to say I told you so, but....if the shoe fits wear it.

It is truly sad to watch 108 years of service by volunteers wither and die when all of it could have been prevented with just a little forethought, humility and support. Some of us tried, and tried like Hell, only to be rebuffed by each of you at every turn...well now you Chiefs can enjoy the fruits of your self serving labors. You have no one to blame here but yourselves boys...but know this, in the process you screwed not only yourselves, but your memberships and most important of all, the people you were supposed to serve.

4 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

 

 Even those cold winter nights ? Those back tailboards were even covered in ice. Ice all over the place. The tailboard your standing on, the cross bar your holding on to, in addition to a human body wearing firefighting gear covered in ice. After spending a few hours following water, at least to me nothing sounded better than riding back inside of a heated cab of a fire truck. And sometimes that wasn't even the case with an open cab.

 

  Well, honestly, I know of one guy that won't be buying one or two of those T-shirts. I'd much rather see my money put to good use in such things as the firefighter cancer fund. You could also send your money to that as well, for a somewhat different purpose. In case anybody wants to do that instead it's www.ffcancer.org .

Yeah Willy even those cold winter nights. Just something about being on that step with the wind (and rain and snow and dirt and dust) in your face. We used to get geared up on that back step too. One guy holding on to the cross bar, arms spread wide, while the other stood in between his arms donning his turnouts, and then they switched...and thoise turnouts btw were handed down to the backsteppers by another guy up in the hosebed....all while in motion.  Ahhh yeah the good ole days of being young.  My God the safety Nazis would have a stroke if they ever saw it....  Honestly though like just about everything else in our business, barring the unexpected and things beyond our control, if you did what you were taught you'd be just fine...as all of us were. I guess it's more nostalgia than anything else, FFs are much better off today in term of road safety and rehab, but it still was one hell of a ride and I'm glad I got to partake in it.

Got to agree with your second point here...money would be put to better use donating to ffcancer.org or another FF aid charity.

First off I loved riding the back step and would do it again anytime. That said, it's a T-shirt,  a simple T-shirt...it means absolutely nothing unless you're a whacker.  People are free to do as they please no matter how ridiculous they'll look or what it may seem to others. Bottom line... if you don't like it...don't buy it. 

39 minutes ago, nfd2004 said:

I can only add this relating to this topic. Either a group of people learn exactly what this fire service thing is all about OR when the time comes. somebody just might be forced to learn it the hard way.

 

This does not only pertain to fires either. If some soul is pinned behind his steering wheel screaming he can't breath while he waits for a fire dept to show up, rather than a some on duty staffed one much closer, that might be considered as well.

 

So its not just the guy chocking on some super heated toxic smoke, gasping for air either.  

I take it even a step further in that besides serving the public when they need us,  be that need great or small, we need to remember to serve each other too. The fire service is a WE thing not a ME thing and when we forget that in our firehouses it not a far stretch until we forget it about those who rely on us out in the streets. Egos and agendas are all about "me" and it seems to me that those things now take precedence over our common mission...and that corrosion of our core values and tradition starts in each firehouse. It starts when we allow the us against them mentality to guide our decisions. It starts when we show favoritism. It starts when we turn our backs on our fellow firefighters because they're not "popular". It starts when the whims and wants of the few become more important than the needs of the many within an organization (paid or volly). Changes in society play a big part in this, but a bigger part is played by each of us allowing the "outside" world's standards to apply to us on the "inside". The oaths some take, the mission statements we all have, the traditions we share are more than just words...or at least they should be, and the only way can only show our commitment to them is through our deeds and actions. 

Maybe I'm a dinosaur or a misguided fool or both, but I honestly believe and do my best to uphold all of those things not only in word but in deed. So if it's a fool I am, living in some archaic fantasy so be it, I would rather be a fool who believes in our finest traditions and values than a self serving prick who turned my back on them.

1 hour ago, nfd2004 said:

" The fire service is not designed to serve of our own self serving egos for our own satisfaction. But for every single person out there who depends on each of us to be there for them in their desperate time of need.

Sadly Willy I think this lesson is lost on more and more people coming in, paid and volunteer alike. Like the rest of society it seems like many now feel that it's all about "me" and what the fire service will do for "me", not the other way around. It is up too us to remind our newer brethren (and the older ones who still don't get it) that regardless of what goes on "out there" they are now a part of something greater where service to others is the PRIME objective. Maybe it can be best summed up like this:

To take a few liberties with a famous quote by JFK..."Ask not what the fire service can do for you, but what you can do for the fire service"

Just wanted to send my kudos to my boys back at the Belltown FD in Stamford for their tribute to the Dallas 5. They've added a blue with black border stripe to the rigs.

Good job boys!!

10 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

Just to explain a little better and follow up on the above comment about the FAST Co.

 

Why didn't the Occum FD originally call for the Norwich FD (Staffed), rather than the Yantic FD (Volunteer) for the FAST CO when they were both equal distance or LESS than six miles away ?

 

That is a good question that most of us in the Fire Service today can NOT really understand. Whether it be for a FAST Co response or to become actually involved in the incident, it is hard for me to remember the last time that career dept was called into any of those fire districts.

 

  It is my hope to spread the word way beyond the local city limits or this part of Connecticut, to show the world through that newspaper article and through the use of some fire dept web sites, just how foolish these decisions appear as they are viewed from the "outside world". Perhaps, before some innocent people suffer at the hands of these Fire Commanders, they will come to their senses through the embarrassment of their own decisions.

 

  Let me suggest as I did earlier, your concern and your help could may be just the right words to make these people reconsider. I'm sure you can do that through their web sites. You don't even have to tell your name. Just that your read what is going on and that change is way overdue. With your RIGHT WORDS telling them of these foolish, very outdated decisions, just perhaps, YOU may indirectly save a life that might not have happened otherwise.  

Willy what I'm about to say I say with the utmost respect for you. 

That you want to help improve your city's fire service is admirable and I'm sure changes are long overdue. That said seeking help from members of this forum or just about any other will lead nowhere. You are alone in your fight and as the messenger it is you who will face the slings and arrows. Others will sit by as you rail against the obvious shortcomings and let you take the brunt of the battle so that the doors will be opened and then they can step forward. Now before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, there's nothing wrong with that....it is how things change. Someone has to lead the charge and clear a path through the minefield so others can follow. My point here Willy is that you have chosen to take on this boondoggle and you will have a long lonely road ahead. And besides that most members here have their own problems and can't or won't involve themselves in a debacle outside of their own areas and not of their own making...and maybe that's for the best. This is a Norwich problem and the solution to it lies in Norwich, with each and every FF, fire officer and citizen in that city, including you. Now the sad truth is you have stood up and brought attention to the situation and that is commendable, but like the proverbial blade of grass that stands above the rest you are now a target for the lawnmower of public and fire service opinion. And you can be sure scorn, derision and ostracism will follow. Such is the lot of the bearer of bad news no matter how true it may be.  

Just one last thing, as I read your posts I am struck by, for lack of better terms, the vitriol and animosity they contain. I'm sure some of your colleagues both career and volly up there read these forums and the newspapers and take to heart what they read. While you may feel strongly that some or all of the leaders should be held accountable, it is hard to begin any kind of substantive dialogue when the pall of recriminations hang over any attempts. How do I know this as fact, because I and many other lived it just a very short time ago on the other end of the State. Take a look back through this forum to that other thread about Stamford and you will see what I mean. The specifics may be different but I see you all headed down that same futile road unless you can step above what we were so mired in. 

If I have offended you please accept my sincere apologies, that is certainly not my intent, I only wish others to learn for my and our (Stamford's) mistakes so they can succeed where we did not.

Good luck as you step into the abyss, may your journey through it be swift and successful for the citizens of Norwich.

Stay safe

Willy has anyone there in a leadership capacity, volunteer or career, made any overtures in getting everyone in the same room to take a look at modernizing the system there? Now by this I don't mean ordering people to attend and then dictating to them that "this is how it's going to be from now on". Been there done that...it doesn't work. What I do mean is a true round table where the good, the bad and the ugly can be freely expressed so that true productive changes can be mapped out. 

I fully understand the forces at work in these situations, but I would bet that most involved know what the problems are just as well as you do. It's not that they don't want improvements, it's just that egos and traditions make it hard for any of them to make the first step. God knows no one wants to show weakness or be labeled a "turncoat" or "sellout". But for the fire service in Norwich to make the changes necessary to provide the best possible protection to the residents, it's the fire service leadership, (career and volunteer) in Norwich that has to take the steps to make it happen...someone has to take that step and once they do other will follow.

The other alternative is to try the Stamford model and change the City Charter. Many thought that would be the magic wand that would "fix" everything. Well I can tell you it hasn't. Things most definitely didn't work out the way the proponents of that move thought they would. Politicians won't...can't..fix our problems, at least not in the ways that will actually make us better, only WE can do that. I hope that you can convince your colleagues to leave all their BS at the door and step up to work together to make changes, otherwise you are absolutely right, it will take a tragedy and lawsuits to force the issue...and if that happens I would bet my bottom dollar that no one there will like the results.

Willy I have no doubt that you have the resolve to see this through and it is my most sincere wish that things there will change for the better. That said, true productive change can only come about when the considerations of all of the players are given equal voice. There may be many faults with some or all of the departments involved, but each has a horse in the race and needs to be treated as such. Hopefully ALL of the firefighters there will remember that they are firefighters first and try to lessen the divide rather than increase it to promote their own wants. I'm certain that things will change, maybe quickly maybe slowly, but they will change. I can only hope that the needs of the citizens drive those changes and not the whims of politicians or the self serving agendas of the players....otherwise all involved will be losers one way or another

Anyway, good luck on the road ahead. May your cause be just, your battle brief and the results a benefit to all.

Having lived through a debacle much like the one in Norwich I can only offer this. Once the can of worms has been opened there is no closing the lid again. I say this neither to condone or condemn opening the can, but only to advise that once the genie is unleashed these things take on a life of their own. In that other CT city that faced a mountain of volunteer/career issues which were ultimately "resolved" by a charter revision it is without reservation that I can say no one is happy with the outcome. Some thought the volunteers would be "put in their place"...they weren't, while others thought the career staff would be forced to accept more volunteer involvement...they haven't. In truth there has been a marked improvement in some areas and these are to be applauded. There is continued stagnation in others which is not surprising. In the end when these types of situations arise it is inevitable that, no matter how well intentioned, the messenger always becomes the target and no one gets what they wanted or expected. If Stamford is any example the rift will widen much further before it begins to close so all involved need to buckle up for the ride.

5 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

 

 Now Pete, aka "FFPCogs", if only you and I can put our heads together up here where I'm at and "TRY" to straighten out this DISEASTER where I am.

 

   I have been working with a local newspaper reporter over the last few months to try and explain how a wall can be torn down dividing East and West Berlin back in 1989 (?) creating a Free Country. But somehow, they still can't seem to be able to tear down a wall that divides one city in half. And how one of those halves, are actually divided more in 5 totally separate pieces.

 

  All within the same city that has One Police Dept., One Public Works Dept, and one single Board of Education Dept. Somebody has suggested those city departments I mention also be divided into the same separate pieces as the fire department. All broken up to cover a place of about 40,000 people. So what are our thoughts on that ? Should this city create five more police depts. etc., rather than have just the one ?

 

  It doesn't matter who's lives are involved either, civilians, career firefighters or volunteer firefighters. Or whether it's a major ammonia Haz Mat incident in a large food storage warehouse, with the commander requesting a Haz Mat team from 15 miles away. Rather than the Haz Mat team about 4 miles away. Not even knowing if anybody is lying down in that building sucking in those vapors.

 

  Or how about an occupied building fire that gets help from an Unstaffed firehouse 8 miles away, while a Staffed firehouse less than 2 miles away never responds.

 

  These are just two examples of the kind of things that a local newspaper article is supposed to talk about in an upcoming story very soon. Of course there are always two sides to every story and I've only told mine. Hopefully we'll get some good reasons on why the fire commanders of these, and a few other incidents called for the type of fire response I tried to explain here.

 

 Once that newspaper article comes out, if it explains the story the way I tried to, personally, I think that city will be "forced to make some changes". If not and somebody happens to drop the ball, then it will be: "Oh Lord, why didn't we make some changes for the right reasons rather than let a few guys hold onto their self centered egos.

 

  As soon as that newspaper article comes out, I'll do my best to post it here. I won't consider myself the "winner" or the "looser" of however things turnout. Actually the real winners or loosers will be the people affected by this. 

Sometimes Willy we are left with no other recourse other than to open that can of worms. Such a move is sure to make us unpopular in some (or many) circles, but every so often speaking out can make a difference. I hope that your input can be a catalyst for your City and one that will bring everyone to the table ready to move forward as allies and not enemies. A big step I know, and one not likely to be taken without some hostility, but maybe you can all succeed where so many of us have not. 

Although you and I often disagree on the how, we have far more often than not agreed on the what..and that what is making our fire service worthy of those we are here to serve. Good luck to you and to your tangled web of a fire service....you're probably going to need it..

16 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

 

 Great post Pete. I certainly agree with every point you say.

 

 I bet you'd never see that happen !!!! But it just did....

Will wonders never cease... 

23 hours ago, gamewell45 said:

And it's unlikely to change anytime soon; you want a career department that's fine, but it comes with a cost attached to it and the taxpayers don't want to pay the costs; they'd rather roll the dice. 

 

The biggest problem with volunteer departments is getting the apparatus out in a timely fashion; most departments resist having bunk-in's at the fire stations which would cut response time dramatically instead relying on the volunteers to get out of bed and respond to the firehouse for apparatus. Until the mindset changes, nothing will change.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is the culture within many VFDs that has to change and adapt to the modern realities. What worked years ago doesn't in most cases anymore. An all career dept is not the one size fits all solution either since many towns and cities simply can't afford the expense. That said there are a number of departments that have accepted the facts and made changes. Now to be fair some have done so and made dramatic improvements while other have only begun to move forward, but the point is moving forward they are. Sadly for every one that is moving forward there are 10 that are stagnant or worse still, moving backwards. 

Ultimately the most practical solution is a combination system where staffing is distributed effectively to provide the most coverage in a timely manner with a reasonable cost...on paper that is. We all know it isn't that simple. To the outsider looking in at the fire service, it must seem that we, as a group, are either completely insane or downright stupid or both. That there are so many things which get in the way of providing a decent level of service to those we are all here to protect is a travesty of monumental proportions..and quite frankly it defies reason.

Until ALL firefighters decide to live up to OUR core values and put those we serve first there is little hope for progress. The simple truth is that we have all let something other than those we serve become our primary concern. It doesn't matter if it's a fiefdom, a contract, a grudge or ambition, everything that stands in the way of us serving our communities in THEIR best interest is the problem. And it is OUR problem

You know it isn't always the other guy, in fact it almost never is. We might all do well to remember that "I'm a part of the problem" and work on fixing ourselves before we go lambasting "the other guy". That admission would do more to change the fire service for the better that any debate, battle or scheme in our collective history. We are all a product of the culture we are a part of, but we are also the only ones who, right now today, can begin to change that culture. 

As was told to me and as I pass along to every new FF that passes through the door..."NEVER forget that you are not here for you, you are here for those we SERVE"!! Somewhere along the line it seems many have forgotten that fact.

11 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

Pete does that system you mention involve a Career Firefighter being given orders to by a Volunteer Lt ? If so, just by the nature of the accountability issue, there might be a problem trying to implement that. For that career firefighter, he comes under a semi military form of discipline, with plenty to loose if he disobeys an order.

 

Now lets reverse it. A career Capt gives that Volunteer Lt an order. That Vol Lt doesn't follow the order. "What type of disciplinary action can be applied to him ?

 

Yes, that volunteer Lt took and passed the same test as those career Lts., but it will never really be equal.

 

Just as I mentioned the story earlier of the topless lady photos taken in a firehouse. There were two totally different standards applied. Those career firefighters faced some serious charges if they had done it. While the volunteer firefighters, who actually committed the incident, had no action taken against them. The reality is, "nothing could be done against them".

 

Just by virtue of passing the same test, does not make things equal.

 

Here's an example. As a new officer, I was once called into the chiefs office for a personal issue. One of the firefighters got in a little trouble. I wasn't even there when it happened. As I headed to the office both the Union President and Vice President met me in the hallway. I was surprised to see them, so I asked what was going on ? The union president then said to me; "Willy do you want us to go in there with you" ? I asked "for what". They then told me the charges of what I was accused of and said, "he wants you suspended for 30 days". I couldn't believe that. Of course as it turned out, I was completely innocent and after serving four days of my 30 day suspension, I got my job back and also the four days back pay I lost.

 

 First of all, sometimes it's no fun being an officer. In the career dept you are held accountable for everything that goes on. But my real point here is the kind of standards that career officers are held too.

 

  Here's another example which happened within the last year or two. A career Lt is inside a building fighting a fire on the line with his members. Outside, the pump operator was NOT wearing his helmet. I believe he had been told to do so earlier on. The pump operator got suspended and the Lt was written up for not disciplining his men. He had no idea this guy wasn't wearing his helmet.  

 

 Both true stories. Now can a Volunteer Lt be held to such standards ?

 

 

Willy it is true that career members tend to have a greater base of knowledge in most cases, by the very nature of that fact that it is their job. But that doesn't mean that all career members are equal either. There are good and bad among them as well. The LT of career E-1 is the best damn LT to every wear the bars, while the LT of career E-2 is far less knowledgeable, experienced and competent. Both passed the same exam and both got promoted and both now command a crew. The promotional exam they both took and passed says they are equal, when in fact they are far from it, yet both hold the rank. In many ways the same applies to career/volunteer. Some volunteer officers shine brighter than any career officer, some don't. The length of service and testing requirements would give a baseline from which to work and would ensure that at least some kind of minimum equal standard exists to warrant someone being promoted.

As far as discipline goes there is absolutely no doubt that how that discipline is meted out would be different. Simply put career members are paid while volunteers are not in any meaningful sense so that leverage would be greater over the career staff. And while maintaining discipline and structure are of great importance, no FD worth it's salt is run solely by the threat of disciplinary action. Successful and well run departments are that way because the membership (paid or volunteer) want it to be that way. They take pride in their departments and the job they do, they don't need to coerced into doing the right thing...it comes naturally as a part of the culture of the organization.

Of course there will always be infractions to be dealt with and in these cases the leverage of pay will potentially make a difference. Yes a career member can be suspended without pay while a volunteer cannot. But the volunteer has much to lose as well. Both career and volunteer officers gain a sense of accomplishment and pride when promoted. Both gain new responsibilities, authority and shiny new epaulets for their uniforms. Both don't want to lose these things. But the career members also sees a rise in his pay while the volunteer does not and this added leverage does put the career member at a disadvantage in a sense. So what then can the volunteer lose? Well whatever it was that motivated that person to seek promotion and drives him can be taken away. He didn't look to be promoted for money, so money cannot be used to leverage "proper" behavior, only those things which the volunteer values in his position can be. Now that might seem a poor comparison, but it isn't in most cases. Volunteer officers "do the right thing" not because they have to for their pay but because they have to to maintain their responsibilities, status, and the other perks of officership they enjoy.  Hard as it may be to believe for many volunteer officers these factors are just a potent a motivator as pay in keeping them flying straight.

So to come back full circle as I said earlier, a successful combination department can only be achieved when both sides have a vested interest in that success. When ALL of the members want a good , well run, aggressive, competent department. And pay or not that desire can only come from within each and every member to make it so. 

Willy my solution is the same as it always has been. Same standards across the board and with that, no more of the career can only be led by career nonsense. The same length of service requirement for all members seeking promotion followed by EARNING that promotion by successfully passing the SAME promotional exams regardless of pay status.  A FF is a FF paid or not, a Lieut a Lieut paid or not, a Capt a Capt paid or not, a Battalion Chief a Battalion Chief paid or not and so on. What members put in (i.e. EARN), is what they'll get out. No jobs lost, no egos bruised and a population better served by an FD more concerned with serving them competently than their petty internal career vs volly rivalries.

Bottom line: a combination systems can only work when both "sides" have a vested interest in it's success and far more often than not that vested interest requires a level of EARNED equality seldom seen in our neck of the woods. For a variety of deep seated (and at times fully justified) reasons on both the career and volunteer sides of the divide there is little desire to make the kind of concessions necessary to build a truly successful combination system. Sadly this being the case, I hold little hope of a truly successful combination system taking root in the region any time soon.

2 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

Personally I hope for a positive outcome for those eight firefighters. I also hope for a positive and improving relationship between career and volunteer firefighters in Port Chester, NY. 

I too share your hopes for a positive outcome for all involved Willy, but that hope is tempered by my own experiences regarding the overall career/volunteer relationship. Over my 36 years in the fire service I have witnessed that relationship deteriorate to a point where animosity is now the norm in just about every jurisdiction where the two jointly provide services. And worse still, with each new divisive word or deed said or done,  intentional or not, be it by politicians, volunteers or career members, that already severely damaged relationship takes another hit and sinks even lower into the morass. We should as firemen be standing side by side and not toe to toe, but alas it may be too late to ever pull out of the pit we've all dug ourselves into. Sadly and with a heavy heart I must admit that when looking at the overall career/volunteer picture, I see only increased tension down the road and the utter destruction of whatever semblance of brotherhood may still exist between the two "sides" of our fire service.

This is definitely one of those times I hope I'm proven wrong, for nothing would make me happier than to see a real resurgence of camaraderie and true brotherhood among us. 

12 hours ago, frost025 said:

 But the only thing I can say is the career firefighters turned in  4300 signatures to the village to force a referendum , let the citizens decide and the board and the chiefs can shove it where the sun doesn't shine.....

While I have every confidence these men will get their jobs back, voters can be fickle and it may turn out that it won't be the Chief's having something shoved where the sun doesn't shine. Like all things fire...hope for the best, plan for the worst

1 hour ago, fdalumnus said:

 

LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE !!!!

 

This is about the only post thus far that I agree with 100%. It's their homes, their tax dollars and their lives so let the people decide. And which ever way it goes that's the end of the matter, for the people will have spoken.