CFFD117

Wow, never heard such a uproar about a somewhat posititive article. I agree, the main point of the article was not to higlight the "whining firefighters" but to propose a solution to solve the problem. I don't care who you are, there's nothing good about false alarms. From the responses, it woud appear that no one here is thinking big picture and that folks just want to knee jerk and call names. Try thinking about big the big picture. Responding is dangerous, no one wants to get hurt only to find out the call was bogus and from a place you keep going back to. It takes resources to respond, whether no matter what type of dept....people mentioned tough times, guess what that includes municipal services. No one is saying don't respond but an unecessary response can be avoided, everyone wins. As for the manpower issue, perhaps morale is a bad word to use, but the issue is real. How many false calls can someone go on before they really upset their boss? How many times can the same address pop up before anyone gets burned out? I don't think the article mentioned punishing those have a false alarm, but those who are continually having false alarm and have been educated on how to alleviate the problem. If the fines allow the staff to continue doing what they do and help their community, why is that bad thing? The decision is about protecting and helping those who serve the community so they can continue to do so.

Pre-sited for WMC

When (not if) the rig is involved in a crash, I want a solid bumper infront. Their is no way that this bumper is atttached to the frame structure so that its crash worthy.
Also willing to bet, that a very minor tap or even a minor contact with the ground (as when pulling into a steep driveway) will fold this bumper right up into the front of the rig.
And if you need to tow it or pull it out you better not secure to it.

Okay this kind of faux pas really gets under my panties! First thing, they took way too much of a risk smoking up, or possibly muddying those gorgeous gowns!
Second thing, hopefully they also had their nails done properly. Simply picking up a ho-ho(hose) could do irreparable damage to a very fine manicure and paint jaaahhb!
WHAT were they thiiinkiing??
So fiiiine...I'll give them credit for the EFFORRRT, but honestly they took very unnecessary risks on their EXTREMELY fine preparation and wardrobe. If they would have had hair extensions and put THOSE at risk as well, I would have confiscated this video as evidence and send it to the Fashion Police.
Think I'm kidding? Talk to the hand honeeeey...

AS soon as this shooting came out in the news I was sure that the family involved would follow the " skell shot by police " handbook.
These guidelines include :
1. no matter what you thought about the victim, go to the hospital, wait until you see someone with a news camera and then flop on the floor like a fish crying like the victim was your best friend.
2. Make threats toward the police that you will get them for shooting your friend, etc...
3. call for a special prosecutor
4. get t- shirts made with the perps face on it and some catchy slogan like " rest in peace my dude, see you when i get there."
5. no matter how old the perp was, release his communion photo or the picture from his first day of 1st grade to the media and tell them how he was a good person and was ABOUT to get his life back together and go back to school etc... oh i almost forgot, and tell them that he was an aspiring rapper that was about to be signed
6. get a 40 oz. beer box, cut it in half, light candles , put them in the box, put half full 40 oz. beers on the sidewalk around the box for effect.
7. No matter how much of a criminal your family member was, deny it even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
8. when the grand jury returns a decision of No True Bill against the police officers and they are cleared of any wrong doing, repeat flopping on the floor like a fish, then hire some slick attorney that will tell the media that you knew from the begining that you couldn't get a fair and impartial investigation.
9. file a lawsuit against the officers and the city of newburgh.
If I missed any please feel free to add to this list.
This list is obviously an attempt to make a little light of my frustration with the situation. I'm frustrated wih the fact that everything cops do is wrong to society, WE CAN'T WIN. I'm tired of nobody standing up to these families and saying " It was your family membes fault that this happened not the cops, end of story." God Bless my brothers from the Newburgh P.D. They did what they had to do the other night in the face of a deadly threat. The fault for this shooting lies completely with the perp, he shouldn't have committed a crime in the first place, second if he had a warrant ( that he obviously knew about because he ran) then he should have turned himself in. Third, if a team of cops approach you, don't run and fourth, when you are cornered by the cops, don't produce a knife and charge at them. Those are 4 ways this perp could have saved his own life but instead of looking at it rationally, his family would rather blame the cops. I watched that side show that was supposed to be a press conference. Having a public press conference was a mistake, if the chief wanted to give info to the media then you do that, not invite all of liberty street. If he wanted to meet with the family then he should have done it privatly not in a public forum.
Sorry for the long post guys, some things just get to me.

I would have to agree with OoO. I joined the FD at 16, and the VAC at 17. I think that what is expected, and what may be encountered needs to be discussed with prospective junior members, and their parent/guardian. Let both know that EMS members have the possibility of seeing blood, dead human bodies, broken bones, performing CPR and other things not normally seen. Also let them know there is no shame/embarrassment if they think they can not handle the sight of such things. After approval for membership the EMT in charge has the final say. If you see the junior member is having a hard time with something on a call, put them in the front of the bus, in the fly car, or get PD to take them back to the station if possible. My current department is having this discussion now, as we have two CFR's under the age of 18 who want to ride the ambulance, but current policy says no. The EMS LT is against it, "as they may see something they shouldn't", and it gets more personal than the FD side of operations. I can see her point, but I have worked at many extrication jobs as junior FD member having to bring cribbing, tools, etc up to the car and seeing patients in the vehicles. It can be plenty personal setting up cribbing while hearing a patient pinned in a car asking about the passenger next to them, who is now deceased. I have also seen plenty of "adult" members freeze on calls at things they have seen while junior members still function. Even on my job as a police officer, some cops can't handle seeing blood, and other nasty injuries the human body can sustain when involved in a car accident, hit by a train, stabbing, etc. To others, like myself, can handle a man under (person run over by a train) and then go out to breakfast and get an egg and cheese on a roll with salt pepper and ketchup. There is a reason why militaries recruit younger members, they think they are invincible, and will do things without thinking it will effect them.

There are plenty of vacants in every township and city across the US...and in most urban areas, they account for a large portion of work for fire and police....
With the current economic crisis, the proliferation of buildings of all styles and sizes becoming vacant is astounding...and many are in severe disrepair. That will not be changing anytime soon sadly, so we must adapt to it - we meaning suburban and more rural departments...as you urban fireman have been dealing with these for..well, forever.
In a class, the slide show had some vacant buildings on it, and I found some of the remarks and responses to be concerning...
One pic showed a vacant with windows and doors covered in plywood...fire had good control of the attic and there were guys on the roof near the dormers..."Why? It's just an abandoned building". Why indeed.
Looking at the pic, I pointed out how the boards on 2 of the 3 basment windows were removed. I stated "That's where the squatters are getting in. The guys by the dormers just VES'ed."
No, I don't have three heads...but the looks said otherwise.
But that cant happen here in the sticks...this isnt the Big City....right?
What about the hardowrking guy who works all of his life to pay a mortgage and loses his job due to the economy..the house is forclosed on, but his proud, stubborn, self "breaks back into" his own house for a plce to stay...(I know if I were in that situation, I WOULD!)NO heat or elctric, he does what he needs to for warmth...a fire starts.
What about the local teens who break into a vacant house in the neighborhood to partake in the latest craze....heroin..(it's the new weed around here sadly!)..they may overdose or nod off for a while..smokign materials fall to the trash laden floor...a fire starts.
What about the group of "undocumented immigrants" that seem to take over areas...they work for peanuts, and spend those peanuts on beer...so maybe they take up residency in a local vacant...a late night of partying, they pass out..a fire starts.
What about the scrappers...they break into a vacant to steal any metal they can...cutting out pipes with a torch...a fire starts.
Far fetched in suburbia? You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think a vacant is 100 percent vacant 100 percent of the time. Food for thought.
While I respect the opinions of the guys involved in that class, I just want to point out that it CAN happen around here...to expect it..to prepare for it. Will it happen? I hope not...just keep your mind open.
Am I advocating rushing into and on every vacant building on fire? Hell no, I dont want to die for a vacant...I don't want to get hurt on a vacant. But if there is even a slight indication that there is a life inside that building, we need to be prepared to fight that fire aggressivly..like any other house fire.

Time exposure photo taken by New City Fire Chief Ken Flynn of the fire as viewed from Iona Island.

Not to hijack this thread or anything but I think Mexico has made great progress in reclaiming their land and then some. Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Mount Kisco, Brewster, Port Chester, Spring Valley, and all the other places overrun with illegal Mexican and Central/South American aliens.

It's pretty apparent that with your vast life and work experience you've never been part of a strong union or worked in a place that having a strong union..or in any case a union period to have 1 voice with a lot backing stops some utterly ridiculous, sometimes close to criminal actions from taking place. Just like the old EF Hutton commericial used to say when EF Hutton calls...people listen. For many of us when our union leadership calls...people listen and take action or through appropriate processes take action. Not sure what union you were exposed to, but I don't know what "power" you think is so important to them. They push membership because there is power in numbers to gain good for the greater..not individuals. By your comments that you loathe unions based on gaining more numbers, I'm going to assume then that you are not a volunteer or never have been. If there is one group that is into gaining numbers so they can retain, gain and have more control and increased power, its volunteer organizations. And to further educate you, anyone can cross a "picket line." In fact anyone in emergency services has to, to "punch in" as its illegal for us to strike under the Taylor Law. But I'm willing to put money down from reading some of your posts over the past weeks that you're one of the first ones to whine or complain about something. How do you think those things will get accomplished? Well if you have a union you have a group of people who should have access to management and things well above them to force action if its an unfair and/or unsafe condition. So while the union won't pay my bills, they will damn well make sure I'm able to pay my bills to get paid a fair wage, fight for fair raises, swim through the political BS of crying no money that is often said, and ensure I have protections and other fair employment practices for all. Do yourself a favor..stop watching TV and read about the advances that unions have made over the history of their existance and what they still do everyday for thousands of people. Your quest and constant banter about "starting pay" is exactly one reason why EMS has a hard time gaining a foothold or strong unions as many of you pay shop and float to many companies..which by the way their bottom line is to make money...so good luck ever making what the rest of us in the other emergency services branches make.
I mean this as no offense, but to be honest some unions I have to giggle and shake my head at and even more so, some of their members who talk union shop and then in turn volunteer where there are union firefighters. I've seen "pro union" people standing at a picket line in the same city or fire district area they volunteer in when its a combination department. This is why I for one had a very difficult time giving full support to the Verizon strikers. I know some great people in Empress, but they have several members who volunteer in areas where their own people work under contracts and where there are union firefighters. This may get some of you panties in a bunch...and that's fine I really don't care, but facts are facts and truths are truths. I'm IAFF and I'm damn proud of it..and I for one do not do work that other unions do, nor will I ever volunteer where other firefighters are working.
As far as the starting pay...how about telling us some other contractual items that are present. Contracts come down to at times compromise and common sense. And common sense tells me that starting pay is what it is and if you're negotiating a contract...you don't negotiate pay for those who are not even here. I remember an old saying when I came on the job at a very low starting pay..."sorry kid, civil service and unions eat their young and we don't negotiate for those not on the job yet." All that other stuff you brought up is great..now find it in writing where it has to stay that way. If it was union and in contract..then it is so until the agreement expires and new contract is drafted.

Thanks all for the input thus far.
SECTMB has answered the questions almost verbatim to my own views. Thats said I think there are variables here that expand the situation from the political to the geopolitical. Both Russia and China have vested interests in Iran, not the least of which being weapons sales. Added to that is the fact that both Russia and China have become more bellicose in their dealing with us recently. Now of course the risk to China in terms of losing it's primary trading partner are enormous, but as in times past a costly war in terms of lives and money can bring new powers to the forefront....think the U.S. after WW I as the European empires started to crumble or go bankrupt. And of course the vast majority of the products we rely on now come from China thanks to those who sold out our manufacturing base to line their own pockets. When push comes to shove the risks may be viewed as acceptable if it causes a retreat of American influence and power around the world, leaving a vacuum that both China and Russia would be more than happy to fill. So much so that they may view direct involvement as in their best interest. But far more likely I think would be either Russia, China or both using Iran as a proxy to drag us into a long, costly war unlike anything we've seen since WW2 opening the door for them to pursue their own geopolitical aims without our interference.
Then of course there is the spectre of jihad that would undoubtedly be called as the major supporter and sponsor of Islamic fundamentalist groups comes under attack by the "Great Satan" or our "lackey" Israel. It is almost assured that whether Israel is directly involved or not they will be a target just as they were in the first Gulf war. Except this time the enemy is far larger than Iraq and has it's tentacles firmly pulling the puppet strings of the myriad of terrorist groups operating in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria and Lebanon...all of whom want to see Israel wiped from the face of the earth. This also leads to my question about a 9/11 type attack here at home. It may not be the Iranians themselves, but more likely their proxies that plan and try to carry out massive terrorist acts on our soil to help their benefactor.
What we must also remember is that as far as Iran is concerned a de facto state of war already exists between us. They may soon find themselve more alienated and going broke and thus becoming more desperate and reckless as their options dwindle. As a student of history I can see that although very different this situation does bear more than a passing similarity to the state of the our relations with Japan prior to Pearl Harbor...and it was oil then too that was the catalyst for war.
I do not advocate war as the first means to resolve the crisis, but I do support entering into it to protect ourselves or prevent attacks against us. Should Iran aquire nuclear weapons, how long do you think it would be before a terror group got hold of a bomb, put it on small boat and eradicated southern Manhattan? IMO a nuclear armed regime in Iran that has called for the extermination of Israel, denies the Holocaust, and is a sponsor of worldwide terrorist activities, of which we are the main target, is an unacceptable alternative....even if that means war.
Cogs

Governor Chris Christie is giving a known drug abuser the honor of the American Flag being flown at half staff. He should continue this honor with an eternal flame in Whitney's honor.

What was Whitney Houston's worst hit? ..... The one that killed her.
She does not need this attention and praise. Completely pathetic.

That would be a maple tree.

Since most depts. do more EMS calls than Fire calls, I suspect this dept. runs about 500 calls per year. If they are keeping an engine for 25 years thats a total of 12,500 calls if it covered all of them without a flycar. Engines used in big citys are designed to handle that in 4-5 years and tend to be dead in 10-12. That means one could double the life of this engine to 50 years. Are we really saving money?
We need to buy the flycar and equip it, insure it, maintain it, fuel it and house it.
Is it cheaper than the engine yes, but the argument appears to be that it will make the engine last longer. Can we keep a rig longer than 25 years and still meet NFPA? Is it safe?
Is it good maintenance practice to run your engine so little? They are designed to get out on the road.
Does it make operations sense? Sometimes, depending on the dept.

I refer you to.... Beaching The Front Lawn

A couple of observations:
Coggs says he's glad he's not the victim in the British system. By choosing to run out of air inside a burning building doesn't he become a victim in the Cowboy system?
How 'flexible' should a fireground be? When 'flexible' works you're an innovator, when it fails it's called freelancing. I think long term, patients and fellow firefighters may be best served if we are all working with the same set of rules and stick to them. 20 guys at a fire scene with nothing more than the command to 'do the right thing' scares me. The best team I ever worked with was my high angle rescue team. We knew exactly where we had flexibility and where we did not. Breaking any rules just was not tolerated because lives hung in the balance. I do not recall that having to play by rules ever limited us... and when things got tough we all knew what each other would be doing, even out of radio contact. That was a huge positive.
We have high capacity tanks, gauges, alarms. All of this is intended to get us out of buildings while we still have air. Just past agressive is reckless. Knowing where that line is means knowing what your limits are. Here is a proposal. Anyone who thinks he's going to grow a mustache and then breathe through it as a back up plan needs to have done it in a drill. Why don't departments do the drill? Do your firefighers who think they've got what it takes to make their own rules actually have what it takes? Now is the time to find out.
I like ALSfirefighters suggestion that if a rule is to be broken, split the team and get word out that there's an emergency. That said, I'm not sure of the advantage of leaving someone behind.
The observation that depending on the scenario, 4 fresh rescuers might do the victim more good than 2 tired ones with no air is well taken. To give a better answer to the original question, I think I'd drag a victim as far as I can until the alarm says get out and then I get out.
Excellent topic, thanks Coggs.

BNechis, I respect your experience and seemingly endless knowledge regarding policies, procedures, and emergency service operations, so this is absolutely nothing personal on my part, plus you weren't the only one to questionably comment his actions, but...
I agree with your statement that this forum is an educational "tool", and I have always been a big advocate of EMTBravo being an invaluable resource to learn from others. But you're initial post was not educational per-se, it was basically defamatory, full of statements that questioned this officers actions. Where is the educational value in asking rhetorical questions? It's one thing to give the officer his kudos for getting the job done, without any injury to himself, as well as further injury to the aided, and then educating the rest of us on some of the safety measures we should ensure we take at these incidents. That's educational. Ignoring the good job that was done, and posing several "well did he do this" and "did he do that" questions does not come across as educational. Maybe in the future, we can ensure that news reporters ask the first responder if the bus was put in park first and emergency brake applied before so we can further evaluate if a proper hazard analysis was conducted.
Emergency service courses teach lots of techniques, with a major emphasis on safety, and rightfully so. And based on certain situations, while the textbook scenario is ideally what we should follow, sometimes we, as first responders, make concessions after doing a risk vs. benefit analysis and do things at times that the textbook doesn't advocate. See, I didn't see you question, for educational value of course, when an off-duty FDNY firefighter ran into an structure fire to conduct a rescue of an occupant without the proper PPE. No one questioned it; we simply commended him on a job well done, and rightfully so. But I did see you start posting questions and comments when a similiar topic was posted here regarding a police officer who did the exact same thing, with the exact same positive outcome. What about the rope rescue FDNY conducted back in 1991 in Times Square where a firefighter was lowered with a rescue rope that was anchored off to other firefighters and violated numerous safety measures. Should we sit here and point out everything that was done questionably for eduational value, or commend them for a job well done in the face of the dangers that they faced? I am not in any way knocking the FDNY member who conducted this rescue, I think what he did was amazing, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for his actions that day. The list goes on and on of incidents where emergency service providers have taken part in rescues that did not necessarily follow the textbook. When we can follow the textbook, we definitely should. Safety guidelines are meant to protect our victims, and more importantly, to protect us. But, unless something was done that was so egregious, so unnecessary, so stupid as to endanger our other first responders, our victim, or ourselves, let's give credit where credit is due for doing a good job, while also educating the rest of us on how the textbook says we should do it.
In regards to awareness level training for Police Officers and EMS providers related to technical rescue and hazardous materials... there pretty much is none. I'm a big advocate for training, especially awareness level training for front line responders so they can adequately identify and potentially mitigate certain hazards at such incidents, but for whatever reason, this type of training is simply not conducted in this area. Part of the problem is a lack of interest from these groups to receive the training, and part of the problem is the fact that PD and EMS are typically "shut-out" from any type of training related to technical rescue and/or hazardous materials.

While I think the "get the job done first, safety second" statement is absolutely ludicrous, I think what's even more ludicrous is how individuals on here have to nitpick this officers actions as if he did something so egregiously dangerous, instead of applauding him for his actions on a job well done.

Thanks SFRD18 for giving my my 1,000th Rep point. I am particularly pleased that it occured in:
"New Rochelle Avoids Firefighter Layoffs"
It could not have been in a better catagory
Seth I demand a raise.....At least 25%
Thank you to the others who have also contributed.

I honestly read this as "How do we get rid of Eggo's in the fire service"... (I need to get out of my office more often.)
Simple, don't shop in the frozen food aisle.

A quick story that I can now tell because the captain that this happened to is long retired. After weeks of coming to roll call and giving roll call training about securing your R/C at a scene or on a traffic stop one afternoon this captain is in an unmarked yet very "police" looking impala on a traffic stop in front of FD headquarters on new school street. There happened to be a gentleman walking by the R/C who in his drug induced haze couldn't see that it had strobes flashing and a uniformed officer standing only a few feet away. This fine citizen proceeded to get in the car and start to drive away.
On the radio you hear the victim captain advising headquarters that "someone just stole my radio car." The offender now realizing what he was hearing on the radio in the car was refering to him, abruptly stopped the car and began to run south on palisade avenue toward getty square. I was in uniform in those day so upon hearing the radio transmission, the 5 of us that were standing under the clock in getty square began to run north on palisade Avenue and lo and behold the suspect then ran into a wall of blue.
It was not a good day for the perp but it turned out to be a good day for the cops, except the captain who should have taken a little of his own roll call training advice.

What is also embarrassing is someone commenting when apparently they didn't read my post, aren't familiar with any number of my posts, self interpreted my post and either doesn't know my background based on prior posts comments or word of mouth. If you'd like to know by all means go back and read some there are 3800+ so there's plenty to see that I'm not part of the kinder, gentler fire, eat cake and wear blinders fire service. Quote one sentence in my post where I hinted at one excuse at what happened. By all means please do. And then once you continue to try to slant something to fit your mindset...I want you to then find one where I took the auspice off the person (again, didn't say firefighter). Someone called that individual an idiot. Anyone with experience, particularly supervisory experience in the fire service can watch that video objectively and look at the situation and break down the other actions going on around. You can even see the body language of the person who fell that he wanted to pop right up and not take any verbal abuse from the crowd to maintain whatever standing he did. Mob mentality...read about it.
The bottom line is this....how do you know he is a firefighter when the video was taken? I mean hell..my son wore turnout gear for halloween in 2010...does that make him a firefighter? He could have just been voted in that month got a physical and was handed gear. The responsibility on him is very minimal if from what I remember about discussions about it that he was very new when this was made. So your argument that he is a "firefighter" is weak. For all we know he wasn't even issued a bailout system at that point, was given one to "try" or wasn't properly trained on it. And whether you want to think so or not, I know many young people that aren't all that mature when it comes to wanting to fit in with a crowd..particularly one you find to be the "cool" click in the firehouse. The desire to fit in for some can be immense and the majority of the responsibility falls on the members on the ground, especially the ones who have been around long enough to know and if there is an officer on that ground. Then they are done. The most that new member would have gotten from me was a verbal. Call me crazy but I've been around enough firehouses as a member of several different departments in my life to see how things roll.
Izzy....as a firefighter..and your brother...didn't shoot me in the foot...those are the best videos when you can actually see a name in it. For everyone of those idiots..there are those that strive to do things that right way...by the accepted practice way....not the "we do it different here" way...or the "that's the state way" bailout for those inexperienced talkers who talk game..but have no game.

I gotta say....I'm a little disappointed to read some of the comments that are written here. Why are we so excited to see this movement broken up? You don't have to agree with everything they're saying or rallying for down there. You also don't have to like the people who are doing it, BUT it's nice to see a little activism. It's nice to see people pushing back against the establishment because it's our constitutional right. The basis of this action is very similar to the founding of this country. Lets not be so quick to get excited that they're being "shut down".
I don't like a bunch of leaches and do nothings, but I also don't like some CEO's salary increasing 23% while his company sheds 10,000 jobs or the bank he runs won't lend money to the honest working man. The balance of power and wealth in this country is more lopsided than it's ever been.
Remember, if you're a civil servant (as I am)or any other Union worker, these protesters are your friend! They like you. They want you to make more money and be taxed less. The people that they're rallying against want to reduce your pension because it's too lucrative. They want to close firehouses because they'll never need you. They want to ship jobs to India because it'll leave them more money to pay themselves.
Look, it's probably about time they shut down this camp-site and cleaned up the park which must be a disaster. However, lets not be so quick to jump for joy at the end of a protest that has the working man's ideals in mind.

Oh sorry. I read the title and thought this was a thread about Ibo's chili that he used to make for us at headquarters......