sueg

Good morning Brothers,
Interesting replies. Like it or not, the moderation team HAS kept this site, for NINE years from becoming a P.O.S. I can give you plenty of examples of sites that are "THEE" worst. You want to go there because of who the people on these sites purportedly are. They come from big city jobs, and those guys opinions let's face it, are probably some of the most sought after pieces to read.
I want to know what these guys think. They work within systems that are the biggest, with the most complicated action plans, and cultures that we, as brother emergency services people from smaller career jobs, many volunteer departments, would emulate given the chance. Perfect example is how a "10-75" NYC code for working fire has become nearly a standard for many parts of the northern counties.
Job innovations have traditionally come out of the cities. My ego is of such, that I freely admit to the curiosity of what my brothers from the cities New York, New Rochelle, Yonkers, Mt. Vernon and all cities beyond, KNOW. Yes I'd like to hear what their experiences have led them to learn.
But I go to a couple of sites, and I see high-school styled bullying and bashing. What a disappointment. I hope Seth is okay with my giving a shout out to NYCFire.net. THE best NYC site on the web in my opinion. There's a civility and professionalism there that is quite organized.
A great thing about EMTBravo is that our city brothers have joined and participate on a Westchester and northern counties website. Valuable. Cool. Nice of them.
And then we have a colorful amalgam of career emergency services and volunteer. We all know from time to time younger members will come in here and it's almost sad to watch. You can read their anger right into their posts. Without the moderation that has taken place, these kids would have never stopped, and the quality of the site would have declined long ago.
Over moderation? I had no idea this was a festering issue behind the scenes. Maybe some of the brothers who have felt so strongly about this issue would consider what I have stated above.
The photo thing? In my opinion that goes to "EMTCity" website problem that occurred a few years ago. Now when I looked early on with the new software package and saw the 9/11 Remembrance Wall had been removed, I had to admit, certainly I had used images gleaned from searches as backgrounds for collages that I created to respect the 343. With that gone, I could stamp my feet about how long it took to create some of those posts, rather I'm just going to have to admit it had to come down because of these copyright issues; regardless if the thread was about a Remembrance, and certainly wasn't about making money or anything. At the time, I had NO IDEA about these infringement issues.
These guys had to deal with a serious issue just like that when somebody gleaned something off another site recently. Thankfully the other site is made of up good decent people. but the photographer apparently got upset. So that's that.
In the future, I think this site needs to seriously consider changing the NAME of the site to something that connects better with a national base of readers. EMTbravo has spread, initially by word of mouth (thinking about the night a brother came into my office and told me about EMTBravo back in the dark ages of the internet) and reputation. So keep the URL and change the name to Westchester Emergency Services or whatever. Just my opinion, but I think you could expand the base and certainly would get more search hits.
Yeah so it's an old familiar place this site. Today I live on a corral reef in between Florida Bay and the Atlantic. But this site, ah hell it's as familiar and comfortable as my old cardigan sweater that I can't wear anymore where I live. lol
Good luck everybody. Just go for it. Like Joe said, make the site what you want, just stay within the rules of civility. I've posted at times loaded with curses, and been removed. Later you admit to yourself it wasn't appropriate, and you go on. We're all emergency services or used to be's. We all make mistakes every day in spite of our quest for perfection in every thing we do. After all we're just human beings.
Here's my Edit: When I say guys and brothers, I want the sisters who are members here to know, it always includes them.

I learn a substantial amount from this site that I take to the kitchen table every week with both my Career and Volunteer Depts. Whether it be ideas for our next apparatus, or storage of equipment, even ideas on training. I learn something new everyday. Which can be difficult in a career where forgetting more then what is learned in the first place is fairly common.
Stay safe brothers and sisters.
This site wouldn't have existed without Seth, so lets give him a shout.
Have a good week.

No problem, Asst. Chief O'Toole can probably give you the details if he pops on again, but the spec prints are here:
http://www.nfvfd.org/6161/
The "eyebrow" lights are nice if you're pulling up to an MVA on one of the narrow backroads in town or up one of the long driveways we have so many of. Engine 6 that New Fairfield Company A took delivery of a few years back has them as well, and they've had success with them. One thing you can never have too much of is scene lighting.
It will also be great for Ball Pond to have the 8 man cab as well, we end up filling the 2-man Engine and 2-man Tanker we currently have alot of the time and have to leave people behind in quarters. One of those problems that's a good one to have and an even better one to solve.
6-man Engine* Sorry its early.

My views on all regional "rants" or "forums" is that you cant take them to serious. They are what they are. Sometimes you can pick up some good info, other times not. This is not a training site like say... http://www.fireengineering.com/urbanfirefighter.html
But you can pick up some good stuff from time to time. Personally I belong to many sites like this. In the past I have posted questions to various situations on various sites from all over the country about how "others' may do something and have gotten some good feedback and ideas that I brought back to my Dept.. I have also had some good back and forth heated debut on this site. I think I got banned for a short time as well but its all good. This site is actually one of my favorites.
The best thing about sites like this is the networking possibilities. It's never been easier for the average firefighter to gather information about any subject without leaving their home, 24/7! I use Google to research many things as well as using sites like these. You can meet firefighters from all over the world and share info.
Dont expect this site to be a training site. If you want that go to the many training themed sites like the one I posted above, or create your own library of fire service reference books. Most important of all participate in drills and take classes when offered, as many as you can. View it only as news and happenings from your region and another tool to use. Dont like what you see, something offends you... log out and come back in a week. No harm done.

Speaking as just a member, and not a moderator here, just wanted to offer my 2 little cents, for what it's worth....
This site can be a buff site, for those of us who want it to be. If looking at pictures of houses burning down and car accidents is what floats your boat, by all means knock yourself out, no one is stopping you.
For others, this site can be a source of information and education. Personally that's more along the lines of my level of interest, but either way, as Seth said the site is what we make of it.
I've found in my short time as a Moderator, it's a confusing position to be in at times. Sometimes there may be a level of "over-moderation". I don't think it comes from a malicious or bad place, but conversations can spiral out of control VERY quickly, and if a period of hours goes by where no Moderator visits the site, it could turn into the "wild west". To prevent this the staff may take a stronger stance on moderating certain issues, simply because before things spiral out of control, it's easier to "nip it in the bud". It's done to prevent EMTBravo from becoming another rant site full of useless bantering and garbage, but where does the staff draw the line? When is the line crossed between "over-moderating" and protecting the integrity of the site? It's a fine line... and is open to interpretation by each and every one of us.
I don't see any problem with being an opinionated individual. To a certain degree we're all very opinionated and set in our ways. Being opinionated is not the problem. But we should be able to address our opinions like a professional/adult and maintain some level of professional decorum. The childish name-calling and other stuff that goes on at times is extremely counter-productive, and in my eyes does nothing to earn any level of respect from the individuals here who conduct themselves as professionals. Everyone likes to compare EMTBravo to the "firehouse kitchen table"... but it's not. It's a public forum made up of emergency service providers and members of the GENERAL PUBLIC who we serve. Case in point... peterose313.
Peterose, I hope you don't mind me using you as an example, but after reading your post, it reaffirms in my mind that there are people on here who are the everyday "civilian" from the communities that we serve. Peterose happens to be very active in the forums, but I'm sure there are plenty of community members who "run silent, run deep" and just read the content contained in the site. What is said here, from every single one of us, is a reflection of the emergency service community as a whole. How do we continue, as staff and membership, to ensure that the reflection this site leaves on our "guests" from outside the emergency services community is a positive one?

I'll say this. To everyone.
This community is what YOU make of it. You have a choice. Sit back and whine about the site.. Or start fresh, new, interesting topics. Invite people to participate in the forums. Post your photos. Reinvigorate the community. This site is based on member driven content, and you're in the drivers seat.
I don't want to hear the "Nothing good anymore" complaint. Propose a solution or idea. Certain members use every oppurtunity they get to complain about the site is counterproductive.
I also think members realize or appreciate what goes on "behind the scenes". Right now, we're looking at ways to improve the content of the site. We re-doing our moderator system, as well as a whole bunch of other things.
To the people who are still complaining about the upgrade, even after numerous explanations, get over it. We're not going back to the old software, it's obsolete. Move on. There is a thread that you can post the issues you are having, and I will try and figure it out or explain it better to you. I'll also be launching a "Sandbox" section where you can play around with the different features of posting in a live enviroment so that members can get a better feel of the features. I'm also working on some tutorials.
Remember585, I took a lot of heat lifting your ban for the second time. I lifted the latest ban because you have been a long time, positive contributor to this site and have posted many excellent posts and topics. If you remember, you were even a staff member at the begining. Saying "I'll probaly slip up again" is a slap in the face. Flaunting that incident unapologetically and saying you'll probaly do it again is making me re-consider my move. Bans should never be treated as a game. You can be as opinionated as you want, all I ask it that you treat fellow members and staff and the members with respect.
Again, to all members, if you have a question about anything, including moderation issues, contact a staff member

And I really do appreciate that. That was a whole new internet photo sharing thing I missed.Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

I, personally, don't post much very often because I'm not a mos. Occasionally I'll post a thread with a link to a story if I find that it might be interesting to the people on this website or contribute to a thread that's talking about a general event that isn't necessarily from a tactical standpoint. I typically just stick to IA's and photos.
I enjoy reading a vast majority of the posts and from my perspective, am ALWAYS learning things about the different fields in emergency services. There's so much I didn't know prior to joining this group and still so much I don't know but I am always fascinated by the things people are talking about and am constantly learning things.
For me, I'm on here because of pure interest in what's going on in my community and surrounding communities from an emergency services standpoint. It also provides an outlet for me to display my photo work as I dive further into shooting such things as fire apparatus and such. I like everything about this site. However, with that said, I also stick to what I know or at least try to anyways.

If someone wants to expand on their idea they are allowed to, thats why we are in america, you are free to do what you want (within the law). If you guys dont like it, and you are perfectly entitled to your opinions, than you can always leave. Yet here you are, posting on every topic that is made on the forums, complaining about the posts and the members...
Guys...If you like the pictures and the IA's than stick with them, go and have your wet dreams while looking at pictures of fires and trucks, and dont post in the forums. (And I sincerely hope you are reading this post in 'Firehouse Kitchen Table Mode' and not taking it seriously because I respect the both of you and look forward to your posts.) Honestly, this is what upsets me the most...going on to Bravo quick during my lunch break only to see countless bashes about the site, from the SAME people, who are obviously unhappy about the changes to the site and the way things are moderated here. I want to read quality posts that enlighten, expand your mind and leave you thinking about things, or make you want to join the discussion in a positive way.
But with all of these posts about the site, the owner, the moderators, and how its run...it feels like a dam junior high cafeteria instead of the firehouse kitchen table.
Stick with what you like about the site the most and let the rest of us do the same and quit complaining...
(see the smiley faces gang? This was meant to be in fun and make you all hopefully see what you are doing so we can get back to what the site is here for...thank you...have a good day...anyone watch the Ranger/Devils game the other night? )

I know I will get crucified for saying this - but here goes.
As a long-time member of the forums, and as someone who generally doesn't hold back my opinions, I have frequently found myself on the receiving end of what I call "over-moderation."
My recent banishment from here came on the heels of a thread I started, begging people not to hijack the thread or turn it into the all-too-common paid vs. volunteer debate. Almost immediately after starting the topic, some chose to go the route I didn't want it to go, I became irritated (some call it pissed off) and fired off. When I went back and forth with someone openly about this, I got banned (I don't know if he did or not, but that's not the point). I then sent a message to the Moderators both here and on my Facebook page with some choice phrases. I spent a few months banned from here, but as you can see, I am back (for now).
Putting aside my personal opinions of certain people running these forums, I still enjoy them for the most part and honestly feel they are an invaluable tool to all of us - provided we use them the right way. I know I've given Seth my word that I will try harder to brush certain things off and not engage in some of my previous behaviors, but I know I'll probably slip up again. I am a very, VERY opinionated person, passionate about what we do with a fairly decent amount of experience and training to support what I say. I've seen friends and family hurt or worse doing this stuff and can only hope that some of the things we talk about on public forums like these will make all of us smarter and more cognizant of the dangers we face.
Another thing to consider...
As others have said in the past, sometimes we just need to put our "big boy pants" on and develop a thicker skin for the criticisms and advice of others. Nobody is perfect, especially me, and we all make mistakes. As members of the emergency service community we're one big family - like it or not - and even though we may constantly fight about things, we still (usually) can pull together when the chips are down. We go through a lot of bad things together and a lot of good too - but we need to put certain stuff off to the side and keep the forums on track to do what they're meant to do, help us all do our jobs better and safer, and to stick with one another when we need it most.
The fire service is a great part of our country's culture and I am so very glad to be a part of it. I've made countless friends doing it, and even more so from just this forum. I know that we all think our own way of doing things is always better than the other guys, but it isn't always the case and coming to online resources like this with an open mind can (and does) help all of us.
Last thought...
In this month's Fire Engineering there's an article on fire department social media policies. I think every Chief, Commissioner and Officer should take the time to read it and understand it. I know I learned a few things reading it which will change certain feces I occasionally spew from my mouth and on to my keyboard!
Thanks for posting this George!

So what's up people? Just an opinion, since the site has undergone the software change, feels to me like the "environment" has changed as well.
To the career firefighting Brothers: I realize there is immense pressure on the home-front these days, meaning the jobs are under pressure. Nobody can get a contract, morale is suffering, making it harder to do what you do, Yonkers wants to mess with the job again. Regarding a website like this, there is a new awareness that social media can have real world ramifications.
Witness the Miami-Dade fire captain who recently posted a rant on facebook about the George Zimmerman case. That got him demoted to buck private. I guess he's lucky he's still on the job. The rules in Florida for civil servants can be severe, but I guess that's true everywhere. Just more severe in some places.
And I guess that's why a lot of Brothers and Sisters who used to post more frequently have pulled back as of late. Not that they rant, rather they're being hesitant. It's smart to CYA. You gotta.
Once again just an opinion but the direction can change for the positive. The discussions about firefighting, experiences, the posting of photos of apparatus, these types of posts should be expanded upon, so more people will come back in to the discussion boards. I think many are hesitant to post anything, and it's in direct connect to the job now.
We all knew that was coming. Word was out on this site long ago. Remember the "Cameras are everywhere" thread? Take a look at the NY Post this morning. they are attempting to vilify an NYPD Sgt. who was speaking on the street to the local thugeries that only understand street. One little rat videoed him, and bango, front page of the Post. I watched that video. There is nothing surprising or vile in it. The vile is a morality dictate from the "so morally pure" organization that prints it. You know the one with the phone tap scandal going on. Those morally pure folk.
Trying to destroy an Sgt doing the job the way it gets done in some places. Dealing with a subject with a reported 20 arrests. Nice guy. And the paper exploits this dirtbag to denigrate the NYPD. Why?
The point of this post is directed at the career Brothers and the cops, and ems, and volunteer firefighters who make up this online forum/community. There is so much you can still talk/write about. It will lift morale for guys to get back to discussing the stuff we all learn from.
Happy Monday morning. You know what that media saturation of bad news, it hits everybody. We ll need to stay vigilant enough to realize, just take a look around you, and you'll see the American economy is still vibrantly active, sure there are big problems with the GOVT, but Americans mostly yawn and go back to work. the gazzilion stories of the 10 percent who are unemployed struggling is indeed worthy of attention. But take a look around you at the thriving, the commerce, the technology, the defeat of terrorists.
This country is tired and worked out, but it never gives up. And that's why things are going to be okay. That's why eventually the GOVT will figure out what the hell they are doing. Someday things will come back. The dread, the doom, you know what it's just not worth worrying about it. It'll make you sick unless you step up and put it all down, and continue to do what you do.
So how about some more postings? I yearn to read more from just about everybody here. Like the Summerville Brother said, have a great day.

Unfortunately, I do not "do" Facebook, but thanks for the heads up on the major software upgrade possibility. EMTBravo.net has done a great job of keeping its site very user friendly and informative, and an upgrade shortly after I joined made it even better, so we should anticipate great things for the workings of the site and the staff that work so hard to make it so enjoyable and informative. And maybe even more fun/interactive/creatively challenging for all of its contributors who make my visits here a treasure trove of knowledge, sometimes gasps of "Be Nice", and sometimes outright laughs. Cool pictures, articles - who knows what else they can come up with with a software upgrade. Good luck, and thanks.

Sue,
I THINK they are still trying to fight that, but since the legislative session is over I'm not sure what they can do until next session, so until then they are still mandated to have the 1,200-someodd Troopers, even though they've been below that for over 5 years.

I just wanted to say this
Thank You for everything you have done & will do in the future

Never mind, I am blind, the edit tab was hidden right in front of me. . Other than that I find the site very easy to use and Navigate. thanks

I would just like to reiterate that my hands are tied. I had no choice but to upgrade the site, and had to do it when I was able to take several days off work. I waited to the last possible minute to upgrade the site, and I honestly was very hesitant to do so.
I'm doing the best I can do to make this work, and trying to be as responsive as possible to help members adapt. Just like other sites on the internet, we evolve as well.
Personally, I find and have confirmed the new software to be much faster, easier to administrate, and it has many more helpful features for members.
Take some time to explore and take note of the many new features. This new software is very customizable to how YOU want the forum to appear, and what content you want to see and when and how you see it.
And give me time to continue to customize the site further.

Correct. If they are your photos, you can directly upload to the site. Hotlinking creates a host of issues.
On a seperate note, we have created a new Warning system with progressive action levels and clear reasons. For example, today we found out a member was lifting photos. Since we had to find this out from the original photographer who attempted to contact this member several times to remove the photos, this member was warned under our "Photo II", which means that we had to find out from the original photographer. Since this photographer also tried to contact this member several times to ask to remove the photos before contacting us, this member is now suspended for 90 days. This member will also not be allowed to post photos for one year. He was given the oppurtunity to correct his action, has read this thread, and ignored both.

Great Job Guys!

I'd be happier if they just started showing re-runs of Emergency during prime-time in HD!

I would love to see a change and would work with any group collectively to start the ball rolling.
I for one am tired of the argument between agencies...agencies who are supposed to be focused on the same thing, the person calling for help.
Speaking fo myself, I do not, nor have I ever looked upon the career brothers/sisters with disdain. I look UP to them for advice and knowledge.
I definitely do not look at the PD with any disdain either, in fact, its a known fact that when they show up to violent scenes with violent patients threatening the lives of our EMS crew I am the first one to hide behind them and then proceed to kiss their feet...(hey, they have the guns, not me!)
Each one of us are an important link in the emergency services chain and need to band together to be effective; any one part of that chain becomes broken or separate and you get nothing.
At work, I cooperate with the State OFPC and work with them in the field. We trained together and formed some tight bonds, as a result we work together and get the job done, we share info with each other and offer assistance which makes it easier to do our jobs, protecting the Developmentaly Disabled who can not speak for themselves and rely on others to protect them. We screw up and some defensless person(s) perish.
I often wonder the same thing; why can we not band together in emergency services as we have banded together at my job?? Why can we not see the overall picture and try to achieve the same goals instead of trying to improve our images and standing over the others? Kinda feels like junior high all over again but instead of the Jocks, Nerds, and Punks you have Firefighters, EMS, and law enforcement all bullying each other...
Im ready for change.
Great thread and hopefully it doesnt get bumped out of importance by a thread dedicated to "whats in your turnouts?" or "what kind of light bar do you use?"

One thing I've noticed as of late; something I thought had finally been passed over as being antiquated, is the disagreeing that is still occurring between the mighty forces of Emergency Services Unit and Special Operations Command.
Disagreement expressed on these pages could to be a good thing, as it might foster better understanding between those agencies who likely cooperate 98 percent of the time without incident, but disagree occasionally, and it comes off like a competition on those rare events.
But thinking about it, is this situation any different than what occurs in a majority of places, between emergency personnel?
Isn't it true that a contingent of volunteer firefighters still look upon their career counterparts with some sort of disdain?
Aren't there a few career firefighters, who cannot see any gray areas in the fire service and therefore conclude that ALL volunteer services are undermanned shams? (and how many of them were formerly volunteers with the exact opposite views)
Aren't there some cops who will always view the fire department showing up as just another inconvenient blocking of their highway?
Aren't there obstructionists in every branch of emergency services who would rather die or watch as constituents continue to die, than give up one inch of their authority or admit that changes need to be made to operations?
The imperfections of the systems in place in the greater New York area, serve to demoralize ALL who work within the systems. The ability to adapt to simple operational changes, that in many cases wouldn't cost an additional tax-dollar, or donation-buck, and many times would save money overall, are continually looked at with disdain. With inaction. With resistance.
Each individual however can still have an impact on positive change; if they would direct their energies toward the positive improvements and shun the negative energy. None of us alone will change the emergency services world during our careers. Let me repeat that; none of us alone.....
But collectively, smaller positive contributions all add up in the end toward building momentum for inevitable and productive change.
Most of the positive changes that have come about have been those individual contributions. Think about Chief Haligan. He invented a tool. Think about the guy/s gal/s who thought up 2in 2out. The person who invented exhaust extraction systems. Sure, some were collective improvements made by groups of people tasked with inventing that improvement.
But Chief Haligan went back into the shop somewhere at a firehouse and pulled out a length of hardened steel and started thinking about it. Coupled with his experience at defeating doors and locks. So you keep it simple, like he did and the sky is the limit. It's about an idea, more than what you can do in a steel shop. Your contribution might be ideas, gathered on paper; ideas about how to consolidate a bunch of smaller departments into one larger one, that would become a vast improvement in delivery of fire services. Captain Nechis's ideas, analytic thinking is his haligan tool. Whether it get built or not is still in question. Time however will prove he and his counterparts were years ahead of their time with their ideas.
Ideas are empowerment. What can you do individually to improve emergency services? Think about it, you might just be on to something big.

I have heard this happens pretty often, my CBRNE Tech Class at Anniston discussed how sensitive these personal sized detectors are, just never seen an example in the news before. Just sounded like an interesting story.

Even though the call for a lift assist can come in at the worst time it never fails how the guys show how caring they can be. The person who fell off the toilet or out of bed is always embarrassed but very thankful. Some are as easy as two Guys lifting them up after checking for any injuries. Others will need 4 guys and a back board. Then Help get them dressed, find the remote or move whatever made them fall or arrange things around the apartment or house to prevent this from happening again.
At one lift assist we were met in the street by a healthy looking man who said his father had fallen. In the back yard was a elderly male wedged under a picnic table. He was in a wheel chair and was trying to plant tomato plants. Also in the back yard sitting there was his healthy 18yo grandson. One of the guys remarked with a straight face "you must be his Grand daughter" to which the kid who seemed un affected by seeing his grandfather wedged under the table said with a puzzled look "no I'm his grandson!" After getting him up and back in his chair we dug three holes and planted the tomato plants. All the while telling the son and grandson "don't worry we got it" BTW the man who fell out of the wheel chair was a amputee but other than that pretty solid for a 75yo. I think George said it best though!

I think it is disgraceful that people claiming to be emergency service professionals think that lift-assist calls are "nuisance" calls or the people who call 911 seeking assistance for a loved one shouldn't receive the best possible care possible.
99% of the time a lift-assist is a perfect public relations call. You get to be the hero and restore normalcy to someone who is in distress and needs your help. You're also helping taxpayers who are paying for your service? How can you collect tax money from someone and then decide not to help them when they call?
As for "taking a unit out of service" when another call drops, what kind of call volume do most volunteer agencies have? What's the turnaround time on a lift-assist? You can't pick grandma up off the floor and move on to the next job? What the heck are you doing?

I agree, well written post Joe. We didn't look at these calls as nuisance though.
We used to ride around the district and I'd spend a lot of time staring out the window at the neat row after row of little pink houses, block after block, ain't that America. Aided's, lift assists, water conditions, all the service calls gets all of that look behind the doors and locks of the little pink houses. The encounters would soften the hardest cigar chomping brutes of the job. They softened everybody.
There'd be the poor, frail elderly and oft neglected by remaining family or friends, victim; stuck in some torturous position for God knows how many hours, wedged behind a fixture, soiled, humiliate, scared, confused.
And the compassion that flew forth from otherwise stoic members of the services was always warming. Yet the whole scene always enveloped me. The old photos on the wall from when the husband was still alive, from their younger days of love, family, children, photos from later when those kids grew up, got married, moved on...
In the end, this poor compassion-needy person is stuck, helpless on the floor of her bathroom with acid burns from having been unable to relieve herself properly. Each and every single call, heartbreaking in a way. Makes the self-preservation instinct kick in for a lot. Trying to fit humor in some where when picking up.
In a way, Americans are all victims of our collective success, relatively luxurious compared with much of the rest of the world. Yet, here we are, all separated, elderly abandoned and left to their own means. Isolated. Alone. Half of everybody in this country has got some kind of head problem because of how we are all so alone so much even within the hustle and bustle of large populated areas.
Yeah, those lift assists. You've got to construct an iron ring around your heart for the time you do these jobs, because if you let all of that despairing into yours...it leaves scars.