LayTheLine

Interesting article in the NY Times that dissects the structure with 3D models of what went wrong, how, and where in the structure:
 
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/12/us/oakland-warehouse-ghost-ship-fire.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=1
 

A couple of points:
1) This was actually a 2nd alarm, hence the amount of equipment.
 
1st Alarm: Scarsdale E54, E55, E56, L28, C2432
Working Fire: Hartsdale E170, Greenville L4, Eastchester E31, TL17
2nd Alarm: White Plains E66, Fairview L1
Total Response: 6 Engines, 4 Ladders
 
2) There were 2 engines & 2 ladders brought in to cover Scarsdale.
New Rochelle E23 & Larchmont TL7 to Scarsdale HQ.
Yonkers E314, L75, Battalion 2 to Scarsdale Sta. 2
 
3) I went on Google Maps and measured the house and it is/was 70 x 50 so it was a good size. If you look at the picture just below the picture of the Scarsdale ambulance, you'll see that the garage was turned into a living space and it appears to be a split level to begin with. So I'm guessing that there were 3 levels in the house to deal with. The windows don't match up going across the front.
 
**** You are right PHIL78, E23 to the scene and there's even a picture to prove it! ****

Here are a couple of shots from the Scarsdale fire yesterday.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 
Actually New Rochelle responded to the scene with E23 and MSU 3.

BFD389RET - What exactly is your point? I couldn't follow your thought process at all - you're all over the place. ????

BFD389RET - What exactly is your point? I couldn't follow your thought process at all - you're all over the place. ????

I agree that some very good points were brought up on what they could have done. Rope to pull the wire back, Inside hose lines at the window, apply water at the eaves and let it wash down the side, etc.  It would be interesting to know the full story. Here's a similar story that happened to me when I was a rookie. I don't remember all the particulars because I was just trying not to get myself killed!
 
Rainy night, high winds. Service wire to the house broke off and landed in the aluminum gutter, Arcing and sparking. Electric company was requested. We entered the house to search and check for extension. As everyone was doing their job, a couple people said they were getting static type shocks.  Someone (a lot smarter than me) realized that all the metal surfaces (refrigerator, stove, washer, dryer, screen door) were charged with a low level of electricity. In essence, the whole house had electricity running through it, including the aluminum siding. The chief ordered everyone out of the building and to stand clear. The electric company was  again requested - stat. The fire started smoldering under the roof shingles and smoke began coming from the eaves. The power company showed up and killed the power. We went back in and a crew was sent to the roof. We were able to extinguish the fire with minimal damage to the house. I never saw anything like that before and I've never seen it happen since.
 
In retrospect, the chief probably could have ordered someone to throw a rope over the dangling line and stand back 50 feet and pull it out of the gutter. If I recall, he didn't want to put anyone in jeopardy by pulling the line down and then having it dance around on the wet ground and zapping someone. We probably could have extended the ladder to the peak of the roof and squirt water onto the peak and let it run down over the shingles. But with the high winds, the rain, and the electrically charged house, the chief was taking no chances whatsoever and backed everyone away. The owners weren't happy when the smoke began coming from the roof line, but the chief wasn't budging. I have never experienced the "burden of command", but he was holding his ground. He probably would have rather explained to the owners why their house burned down than to go to a firefighters house and tell the firefighter's spouse that he had been killed.
 
With everything to be considered I would have to side with the (now retired) chief that night; but was there a Plan B available to us that we should have used? A tough call....

Yes, I agree if done in a constructive and nice way. Asking WTF? or is this amateur hour? is not constructive or nice. Using decency and respect should be paramount when talking to or about other firefighters & their actions. To do otherwise makes us look like a bunch of lunkheads. 

We all get Monday morning quarterbacked to death. I prefer the standard answer of, "I don't know happened, I wasn't there. It's not place to criticize." 

Just throwing in my two cents here. Many people have already made points that I was considering. I, too, went online to find out the population, square mileage, apparatus, etc.
 
Going back to my fire science college days (many moons ago) I recall something about taking your biggest building in the district and figuring out what you should have for GPM's and that's what you should shoot for. I believe that has something to do with your ISO rating but my memory is vague. Would eliminating the ladder drop their GPM's below an acceptable amount? Here's my idea:
 
They appear to be in a non-hydrant area. If they sell the ladder truck, I believe it would be prudent to replace it with a tanker. The tanker could have a 1,000 GPM pump on it and it could serve as a reserve engine as well if one of their primary pieces went out-of-service long term. If they bought a tanker with 2,000 gallons on board they should be able to mount it on a single rear axle and hence, make it easier to drive and more people may be willing to drive it. The positives at the fire scene are obvious as they would roll-in to the scene with 1,750 + 1,000 + 2,000 = 4,750 gallons of water on board. If they are going to save a structure, the 4,750 should give them the fire power to knock down a fire in a savable structure. Another added benefit is that with the lack of manpower, you're probably not going to get 4 people for the ladder. But if they got a driver for the tanker, it could respond and the driver could stretch a supply line up to the working pumper and then become a firefighter. The pump operator would have to be on his game, but if they park the pieces close enough, there's no reason a pump operator couldn't handle both pumps until help arrives. If you've got limited manpower it's better than nothing and that one extra set of hands may make a difference in advancing a hoseline or performing outside ventilation.
 
I know of one department in a rural area that had a ladder truck and a tanker. The ladder got little use and they had limited drivers for it. When it came time to replace the ladder, they decided to sell it and buy another tanker. Now they have two tankers in the station and both tankers get a heck of a lot more work than the ladder ever did.
 
There are pros and cons to every decision, but in my opinion the selling of the ladder and addition of a tanker would seem like a smart move to me.

Just throwing in my two cents here. Many people have already made points that I was considering. I, too, went online to find out the population, square mileage, apparatus, etc.
 
Going back to my fire science college days (many moons ago) I recall something about taking your biggest building in the district and figuring out what you should have for GPM's and that's what you should shoot for. I believe that has something to do with your ISO rating but my memory is vague. Would eliminating the ladder drop their GPM's below an acceptable amount? Here's my idea:
 
They appear to be in a non-hydrant area. If they sell the ladder truck, I believe it would be prudent to replace it with a tanker. The tanker could have a 1,000 GPM pump on it and it could serve as a reserve engine as well if one of their primary pieces went out-of-service long term. If they bought a tanker with 2,000 gallons on board they should be able to mount it on a single rear axle and hence, make it easier to drive and more people may be willing to drive it. The positives at the fire scene are obvious as they would roll-in to the scene with 1,750 + 1,000 + 2,000 = 4,750 gallons of water on board. If they are going to save a structure, the 4,750 should give them the fire power to knock down a fire in a savable structure. Another added benefit is that with the lack of manpower, you're probably not going to get 4 people for the ladder. But if they got a driver for the tanker, it could respond and the driver could stretch a supply line up to the working pumper and then become a firefighter. The pump operator would have to be on his game, but if they park the pieces close enough, there's no reason a pump operator couldn't handle both pumps until help arrives. If you've got limited manpower it's better than nothing and that one extra set of hands may make a difference in advancing a hoseline or performing outside ventilation.
 
I know of one department in a rural area that had a ladder truck and a tanker. The ladder got little use and they had limited drivers for it. When it came time to replace the ladder, they decided to sell it and buy another tanker. Now they have two tankers in the station and both tankers get a heck of a lot more work than the ladder ever did.
 
There are pros and cons to every decision, but in my opinion the selling of the ladder and addition of a tanker would seem like a smart move to me.

Just throwing in my two cents here. Many people have already made points that I was considering. I, too, went online to find out the population, square mileage, apparatus, etc.
 
Going back to my fire science college days (many moons ago) I recall something about taking your biggest building in the district and figuring out what you should have for GPM's and that's what you should shoot for. I believe that has something to do with your ISO rating but my memory is vague. Would eliminating the ladder drop their GPM's below an acceptable amount? Here's my idea:
 
They appear to be in a non-hydrant area. If they sell the ladder truck, I believe it would be prudent to replace it with a tanker. The tanker could have a 1,000 GPM pump on it and it could serve as a reserve engine as well if one of their primary pieces went out-of-service long term. If they bought a tanker with 2,000 gallons on board they should be able to mount it on a single rear axle and hence, make it easier to drive and more people may be willing to drive it. The positives at the fire scene are obvious as they would roll-in to the scene with 1,750 + 1,000 + 2,000 = 4,750 gallons of water on board. If they are going to save a structure, the 4,750 should give them the fire power to knock down a fire in a savable structure. Another added benefit is that with the lack of manpower, you're probably not going to get 4 people for the ladder. But if they got a driver for the tanker, it could respond and the driver could stretch a supply line up to the working pumper and then become a firefighter. The pump operator would have to be on his game, but if they park the pieces close enough, there's no reason a pump operator couldn't handle both pumps until help arrives. If you've got limited manpower it's better than nothing and that one extra set of hands may make a difference in advancing a hoseline or performing outside ventilation.
 
I know of one department in a rural area that had a ladder truck and a tanker. The ladder got little use and they had limited drivers for it. When it came time to replace the ladder, they decided to sell it and buy another tanker. Now they have two tankers in the station and both tankers get a heck of a lot more work than the ladder ever did.
 
There are pros and cons to every decision, but in my opinion the selling of the ladder and addition of a tanker would seem like a smart move to me.

Just throwing in my two cents here. Many people have already made points that I was considering. I, too, went online to find out the population, square mileage, apparatus, etc.
 
Going back to my fire science college days (many moons ago) I recall something about taking your biggest building in the district and figuring out what you should have for GPM's and that's what you should shoot for. I believe that has something to do with your ISO rating but my memory is vague. Would eliminating the ladder drop their GPM's below an acceptable amount? Here's my idea:
 
They appear to be in a non-hydrant area. If they sell the ladder truck, I believe it would be prudent to replace it with a tanker. The tanker could have a 1,000 GPM pump on it and it could serve as a reserve engine as well if one of their primary pieces went out-of-service long term. If they bought a tanker with 2,000 gallons on board they should be able to mount it on a single rear axle and hence, make it easier to drive and more people may be willing to drive it. The positives at the fire scene are obvious as they would roll-in to the scene with 1,750 + 1,000 + 2,000 = 4,750 gallons of water on board. If they are going to save a structure, the 4,750 should give them the fire power to knock down a fire in a savable structure. Another added benefit is that with the lack of manpower, you're probably not going to get 4 people for the ladder. But if they got a driver for the tanker, it could respond and the driver could stretch a supply line up to the working pumper and then become a firefighter. The pump operator would have to be on his game, but if they park the pieces close enough, there's no reason a pump operator couldn't handle both pumps until help arrives. If you've got limited manpower it's better than nothing and that one extra set of hands may make a difference in advancing a hoseline or performing outside ventilation.
 
I know of one department in a rural area that had a ladder truck and a tanker. The ladder got little use and they had limited drivers for it. When it came time to replace the ladder, they decided to sell it and buy another tanker. Now they have two tankers in the station and both tankers get a heck of a lot more work than the ladder ever did.
 
There are pros and cons to every decision, but in my opinion the selling of the ladder and addition of a tanker would seem like a smart move to me.

I think this leads up to many additional questions. A check of this town's total population shows in 2010 they had 4,247 people.
 
1) With a small community population such as this, "would there really be a need for this ladder truck"
 
2) What additional ladder trucks are available through a mutual aid system.
 
3) What types and sizes of buildings are in this town ?
 
4) How many members are certified to operate this piece of apparatus. More importantly how many are able to respond in a moments notice.
 
Based on a picture that was sent to me of the 4th alarm fire today (11/21), this building appears to be a 1 1/2 story frame, perhaps 20 x 60 from what I can see. At the time this picture was taken, it is totally involved.

 
A quick look at their apparatus shows that their only other fire suppression units are "engine tankers" by their designation, 1000 and 1750 gal. This would make me think that a sizable portion of their district has no or un-reliable water sources. Running a "quint" with only 300 gallons of water would be un-arguably a horrible decision if that is the case. If you are only going to maintain two pieces, then the second must have a considerable water capacity as well. It appears they consolidated a medium duty rescue and pumper into the 2013 replacement as well. 
 
Maybe these gentlemen are just ahead of their time in acknowledging they have no true need for a tower ladder and that a 3/4 of a million dollar ladder truck sitting around is not a good investment. 

The video is very well put together and easy to follow. I agree with the first two points about manning, but not the third. To dispatch 43 personnel to a reported fire in any building above 7 stories is just not realistic. If a call comes in for a fire in Room 802 in a 12 story hotel, or a call comes in for a fire in the laundry room on the 7th floor of the same hotel, it is unrealistic to expect to dispatch 43 firefighters. It may be scientifically the best thing to do, but think about how many career departments could roll 43 firefighters out the door on the report of a structure fire? In the tri-state area I would venture to say that only a handful of departments have 43 people on a shift. Just think about it, if an average city has 7 engines with 4 on a piece, 3 ladders with 4 on a piece, 1 rescue with 4 and 1 chief with 2,  it would mean you would need to dispatch 6 engines, 3 ladders, 1 rescue and the chief to that reported fire. (and they'd still be 1 person short!). Basically you would leave 1 engine to cover the city. If there was a CO call going on along with a medical assist call, you wouldn't have the manpower to respond to the fire and you would have nothing left to cover the city.
 
There are many cities, take New Rochelle, White Plains, or Mt. Vernon that don't even have 43 on a shift. If a report of a fire came in at a high rise in White Plains, they would have to dispatch the whole on-duty shift and call for an automatic response of 2 or 3 outside departments with an engine. Is that realistic?
 
FDNY sends 3 & 2 with a battalion on a reported fire. If they receive multiple calls they may "load up the box" and send 4 & 2, rescue, squad and the battalion, which adds up to 46 personnel. They are probably one of the only departments in the area that can supply that manpower without totally stripping their city of fire protection and without having to call the neighboring department(s) to start an engine along.
 
Can you imagine a fire chief trying to justify this response based on one call? If multiple reports are received and people are trapped, then by all means transmit the 2nd alarm while en route. I think the NFPA does great work, but a video like this does nothing but portray the fire service as unrealistic to the city fathers and puts in the mind of many firefighters that they are asked to respond to calls severely under-manned (which is true in many cases). So why recommend a standard that many cities, with only 3 on a piece, cannot even come close to meeting? It becomes a document that is destined to collect dust on a shelf.  

The video is very well put together and easy to follow. I agree with the first two points about manning, but not the third. To dispatch 43 personnel to a reported fire in any building above 7 stories is just not realistic. If a call comes in for a fire in Room 802 in a 12 story hotel, or a call comes in for a fire in the laundry room on the 7th floor of the same hotel, it is unrealistic to expect to dispatch 43 firefighters. It may be scientifically the best thing to do, but think about how many career departments could roll 43 firefighters out the door on the report of a structure fire? In the tri-state area I would venture to say that only a handful of departments have 43 people on a shift. Just think about it, if an average city has 7 engines with 4 on a piece, 3 ladders with 4 on a piece, 1 rescue with 4 and 1 chief with 2,  it would mean you would need to dispatch 6 engines, 3 ladders, 1 rescue and the chief to that reported fire. (and they'd still be 1 person short!). Basically you would leave 1 engine to cover the city. If there was a CO call going on along with a medical assist call, you wouldn't have the manpower to respond to the fire and you would have nothing left to cover the city.
 
There are many cities, take New Rochelle, White Plains, or Mt. Vernon that don't even have 43 on a shift. If a report of a fire came in at a high rise in White Plains, they would have to dispatch the whole on-duty shift and call for an automatic response of 2 or 3 outside departments with an engine. Is that realistic?
 
FDNY sends 3 & 2 with a battalion on a reported fire. If they receive multiple calls they may "load up the box" and send 4 & 2, rescue, squad and the battalion, which adds up to 46 personnel. They are probably one of the only departments in the area that can supply that manpower without totally stripping their city of fire protection and without having to call the neighboring department(s) to start an engine along.
 
Can you imagine a fire chief trying to justify this response based on one call? If multiple reports are received and people are trapped, then by all means transmit the 2nd alarm while en route. I think the NFPA does great work, but a video like this does nothing but portray the fire service as unrealistic to the city fathers and puts in the mind of many firefighters that they are asked to respond to calls severely under-manned (which is true in many cases). So why recommend a standard that many cities, with only 3 on a piece, cannot even come close to meeting? It becomes a document that is destined to collect dust on a shelf.  

Nfd2004, I am in agreement with you about the standard for both of the first two scenarios, but perhaps I didn't clearly state my point: They are suggesting sending 43 out the door on the initial call - period. I think the type and quantity of calls should be taken into account. I don't know how Bridgeport runs, but I'm guessing they don't send 6 engines, 3 ladders, the rescue & a chief to every reported structure fire in a building over 7 stories. That would leave 2 engines to cover the city. I understand how mutual aid works and if fire dispatch starts receiving additional calls then by all means transmit a 2nd or 3rd alarm for that call in order to get your 43 firefighters. I believe NFPA should include that qualifier in there. I would also doubt that cities around Bridgeport roll apparatus to help cover the city on 1 report of a high rise fire because Bridgeport is sending 6/3/1 right out the door. If I am wrong, please correct me.
 
FireMedic049 - as to your expanding on my line of thinking, the majority of career fire deparments send 1 engine or 2 & 1 at best to residential AFA's and that doesn't meet the 15 person standard. That doesn't mean your not going to need 15 when there is a fire. Again, reasonableness is the key. If a 2nd source comes in for the AFA then upgrade the assigment to a structural response. So does sending 10 FF's to a residential AFA seem reasonable based on what we know about frequency of fires through AFA's? I would think so. At the same time, does responding 43 FF's to single report of a fire in a building ovet 7 stories seem reasonable - even if it means starting along 2 other departments? In my opinion it is not. If additional reports start coming in that the whole floor is on fire then strike however many alarms you need to to get to 43. That's what runcards are for. Heck strike a 4th alarm if you know that is the minimum to get your 43. That can be pre-determined by knowing which each alarm brings.

The video is very well put together and easy to follow. I agree with the first two points about manning, but not the third. To dispatch 43 personnel to a reported fire in any building above 7 stories is just not realistic. If a call comes in for a fire in Room 802 in a 12 story hotel, or a call comes in for a fire in the laundry room on the 7th floor of the same hotel, it is unrealistic to expect to dispatch 43 firefighters. It may be scientifically the best thing to do, but think about how many career departments could roll 43 firefighters out the door on the report of a structure fire? In the tri-state area I would venture to say that only a handful of departments have 43 people on a shift. Just think about it, if an average city has 7 engines with 4 on a piece, 3 ladders with 4 on a piece, 1 rescue with 4 and 1 chief with 2,  it would mean you would need to dispatch 6 engines, 3 ladders, 1 rescue and the chief to that reported fire. (and they'd still be 1 person short!). Basically you would leave 1 engine to cover the city. If there was a CO call going on along with a medical assist call, you wouldn't have the manpower to respond to the fire and you would have nothing left to cover the city.
 
There are many cities, take New Rochelle, White Plains, or Mt. Vernon that don't even have 43 on a shift. If a report of a fire came in at a high rise in White Plains, they would have to dispatch the whole on-duty shift and call for an automatic response of 2 or 3 outside departments with an engine. Is that realistic?
 
FDNY sends 3 & 2 with a battalion on a reported fire. If they receive multiple calls they may "load up the box" and send 4 & 2, rescue, squad and the battalion, which adds up to 46 personnel. They are probably one of the only departments in the area that can supply that manpower without totally stripping their city of fire protection and without having to call the neighboring department(s) to start an engine along.
 
Can you imagine a fire chief trying to justify this response based on one call? If multiple reports are received and people are trapped, then by all means transmit the 2nd alarm while en route. I think the NFPA does great work, but a video like this does nothing but portray the fire service as unrealistic to the city fathers and puts in the mind of many firefighters that they are asked to respond to calls severely under-manned (which is true in many cases). So why recommend a standard that many cities, with only 3 on a piece, cannot even come close to meeting? It becomes a document that is destined to collect dust on a shelf.  

About a month ago, Detroit was being pounded by heavy rains. I put them on Broadcastify to listen in. They were running trees down, wires down and cars stuck in the flooding underpasses. I looked on the Internet for Detroit Fire to get an idea of what they run. What I found is astounding. Detroit is the arson capital of the world! It's almost like "The Bronx is Burning" back in the '70's & 80's. In a nutshell they have about 5,000 Working Fires or greater each year (that's about 13 a day). That's more than FDNY!! I couldn't believe it. Granted many of their fires are already burned buildings, but I've been listening the last month and they get their share of occupied structure fires & commercial fires. I am not exaggerating when I say that if turn on Broadcastify and listen in, there is either a Working Fire in progress, just ending, or one being dispatched. It's continuous. If this interests you, then read on.
 
The city has 28 Engines, 13 Ladders, 6 Squads, and 8 Battalion Chiefs. Within the city limits the cities of Hamtramck & Highland Park reside. These are two very small cities, both surrounded by Detroit and each is only about 2 square miles. Each city runs an engine and a ladder. They work in conjunction with Detroit and are even dispatched by Detroit. So adding in those two cities, Detroit is covered by 30 Engines, 15 Ladders, 6 Squads & 8 Battalions. I have NO idea how they have so many fires with such a relatively small department. In addition to the structure fires they have daily car fires, dumpster fires and also run first responder on medical calls. I am not sure what their mutual aid agreement is with surrounding cities. The firefighters in Detroit must go to work and expect to be working their whole shift on a daily basis. I'm just guessing but I assume they must rotate people from the quieter companies to the busier companies to keep them fresh. It sounds like everyday would be the equivalent of playing a football game. Again, only a guess, but the average Detroit firefighter probably lasts 20 years and then is completely broken-down and has to retire.
 
I like what they have for radio communications. They have fire dispatch on one frequency and then 8 fireground channels. They assign them by which chief is assigned first due to the box. If Battalion 4 is assigned, they assign Fireground 4. If there is another fire in Battalion 4's area, they just assign a fireground channel to whichever chief is coming in. "Companies responding to Main & Elm switch to Fireground 8 for Battalion 8."  In just a month I've heard numerous Working Fires going on at the same time.
 
There response, from what I can figure out is as follows:
Box Alarm 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion
Commercial Box Alarm: 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Squads, 2 Battalions
2nd Alarm: 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion (If it came is as a Box Alarm and they go to a 2nd it sounds like they round out the Commercial Box assignment along with the 2nd Alarm assignment.)
 
Their manning appears to be 4 on an Engine, Ladder, and Squad; however, all those units will drop to 3. So on any given shift Squad 1 may have 4 and Squad 2 may have 3. When they sign on location they'll declared their PAR. "Engine 9 on location, PAR 4." Here's what I don't understand, about 50 percent of the time a unit will sign off and say PAR 3 plus 1 or PAR 2 plus 1 or it may just be PAR 3 or PAR 4. So I don't think it's the number of firefighters plus the officer. All I can think of is that it must be Probies on the rig, which means about 20% of the department must be probies. The whole thing is just mind-boggling and I really can't wrap my brain around it. At busy times they must have 3 or 4 Workers at a time!
 
I'm sure many have heard about Devil's Night in Detroit (Oct. 30th). At one point they were averaging 80 structure fires on that night. I believe last year it was cut down to about 40. Well, Devil's Night is fast approaching and I will be sure to listen in. God Bless the Detroit firefighters and stay safe!

 
Patterson (Putnam County)  is deciding whether they want to establish a town-wide ambulance service. Interesting document to read that explores multiple different options available to them.  The vote is tonight.
 
REPORT: http://www.pattersonny.org/PDFs/EMS_Final_Report_101216.pdf

About a month ago, Detroit was being pounded by heavy rains. I put them on Broadcastify to listen in. They were running trees down, wires down and cars stuck in the flooding underpasses. I looked on the Internet for Detroit Fire to get an idea of what they run. What I found is astounding. Detroit is the arson capital of the world! It's almost like "The Bronx is Burning" back in the '70's & 80's. In a nutshell they have about 5,000 Working Fires or greater each year (that's about 13 a day). That's more than FDNY!! I couldn't believe it. Granted many of their fires are already burned buildings, but I've been listening the last month and they get their share of occupied structure fires & commercial fires. I am not exaggerating when I say that if turn on Broadcastify and listen in, there is either a Working Fire in progress, just ending, or one being dispatched. It's continuous. If this interests you, then read on.
 
The city has 28 Engines, 13 Ladders, 6 Squads, and 8 Battalion Chiefs. Within the city limits the cities of Hamtramck & Highland Park reside. These are two very small cities, both surrounded by Detroit and each is only about 2 square miles. Each city runs an engine and a ladder. They work in conjunction with Detroit and are even dispatched by Detroit. So adding in those two cities, Detroit is covered by 30 Engines, 15 Ladders, 6 Squads & 8 Battalions. I have NO idea how they have so many fires with such a relatively small department. In addition to the structure fires they have daily car fires, dumpster fires and also run first responder on medical calls. I am not sure what their mutual aid agreement is with surrounding cities. The firefighters in Detroit must go to work and expect to be working their whole shift on a daily basis. I'm just guessing but I assume they must rotate people from the quieter companies to the busier companies to keep them fresh. It sounds like everyday would be the equivalent of playing a football game. Again, only a guess, but the average Detroit firefighter probably lasts 20 years and then is completely broken-down and has to retire.
 
I like what they have for radio communications. They have fire dispatch on one frequency and then 8 fireground channels. They assign them by which chief is assigned first due to the box. If Battalion 4 is assigned, they assign Fireground 4. If there is another fire in Battalion 4's area, they just assign a fireground channel to whichever chief is coming in. "Companies responding to Main & Elm switch to Fireground 8 for Battalion 8."  In just a month I've heard numerous Working Fires going on at the same time.
 
There response, from what I can figure out is as follows:
Box Alarm 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion
Commercial Box Alarm: 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Squads, 2 Battalions
2nd Alarm: 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion (If it came is as a Box Alarm and they go to a 2nd it sounds like they round out the Commercial Box assignment along with the 2nd Alarm assignment.)
 
Their manning appears to be 4 on an Engine, Ladder, and Squad; however, all those units will drop to 3. So on any given shift Squad 1 may have 4 and Squad 2 may have 3. When they sign on location they'll declared their PAR. "Engine 9 on location, PAR 4." Here's what I don't understand, about 50 percent of the time a unit will sign off and say PAR 3 plus 1 or PAR 2 plus 1 or it may just be PAR 3 or PAR 4. So I don't think it's the number of firefighters plus the officer. All I can think of is that it must be Probies on the rig, which means about 20% of the department must be probies. The whole thing is just mind-boggling and I really can't wrap my brain around it. At busy times they must have 3 or 4 Workers at a time!
 
I'm sure many have heard about Devil's Night in Detroit (Oct. 30th). At one point they were averaging 80 structure fires on that night. I believe last year it was cut down to about 40. Well, Devil's Night is fast approaching and I will be sure to listen in. God Bless the Detroit firefighters and stay safe!

About a month ago, Detroit was being pounded by heavy rains. I put them on Broadcastify to listen in. They were running trees down, wires down and cars stuck in the flooding underpasses. I looked on the Internet for Detroit Fire to get an idea of what they run. What I found is astounding. Detroit is the arson capital of the world! It's almost like "The Bronx is Burning" back in the '70's & 80's. In a nutshell they have about 5,000 Working Fires or greater each year (that's about 13 a day). That's more than FDNY!! I couldn't believe it. Granted many of their fires are already burned buildings, but I've been listening the last month and they get their share of occupied structure fires & commercial fires. I am not exaggerating when I say that if turn on Broadcastify and listen in, there is either a Working Fire in progress, just ending, or one being dispatched. It's continuous. If this interests you, then read on.
 
The city has 28 Engines, 13 Ladders, 6 Squads, and 8 Battalion Chiefs. Within the city limits the cities of Hamtramck & Highland Park reside. These are two very small cities, both surrounded by Detroit and each is only about 2 square miles. Each city runs an engine and a ladder. They work in conjunction with Detroit and are even dispatched by Detroit. So adding in those two cities, Detroit is covered by 30 Engines, 15 Ladders, 6 Squads & 8 Battalions. I have NO idea how they have so many fires with such a relatively small department. In addition to the structure fires they have daily car fires, dumpster fires and also run first responder on medical calls. I am not sure what their mutual aid agreement is with surrounding cities. The firefighters in Detroit must go to work and expect to be working their whole shift on a daily basis. I'm just guessing but I assume they must rotate people from the quieter companies to the busier companies to keep them fresh. It sounds like everyday would be the equivalent of playing a football game. Again, only a guess, but the average Detroit firefighter probably lasts 20 years and then is completely broken-down and has to retire.
 
I like what they have for radio communications. They have fire dispatch on one frequency and then 8 fireground channels. They assign them by which chief is assigned first due to the box. If Battalion 4 is assigned, they assign Fireground 4. If there is another fire in Battalion 4's area, they just assign a fireground channel to whichever chief is coming in. "Companies responding to Main & Elm switch to Fireground 8 for Battalion 8."  In just a month I've heard numerous Working Fires going on at the same time.
 
There response, from what I can figure out is as follows:
Box Alarm 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion
Commercial Box Alarm: 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Squads, 2 Battalions
2nd Alarm: 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion (If it came is as a Box Alarm and they go to a 2nd it sounds like they round out the Commercial Box assignment along with the 2nd Alarm assignment.)
 
Their manning appears to be 4 on an Engine, Ladder, and Squad; however, all those units will drop to 3. So on any given shift Squad 1 may have 4 and Squad 2 may have 3. When they sign on location they'll declared their PAR. "Engine 9 on location, PAR 4." Here's what I don't understand, about 50 percent of the time a unit will sign off and say PAR 3 plus 1 or PAR 2 plus 1 or it may just be PAR 3 or PAR 4. So I don't think it's the number of firefighters plus the officer. All I can think of is that it must be Probies on the rig, which means about 20% of the department must be probies. The whole thing is just mind-boggling and I really can't wrap my brain around it. At busy times they must have 3 or 4 Workers at a time!
 
I'm sure many have heard about Devil's Night in Detroit (Oct. 30th). At one point they were averaging 80 structure fires on that night. I believe last year it was cut down to about 40. Well, Devil's Night is fast approaching and I will be sure to listen in. God Bless the Detroit firefighters and stay safe!

About a month ago, Detroit was being pounded by heavy rains. I put them on Broadcastify to listen in. They were running trees down, wires down and cars stuck in the flooding underpasses. I looked on the Internet for Detroit Fire to get an idea of what they run. What I found is astounding. Detroit is the arson capital of the world! It's almost like "The Bronx is Burning" back in the '70's & 80's. In a nutshell they have about 5,000 Working Fires or greater each year (that's about 13 a day). That's more than FDNY!! I couldn't believe it. Granted many of their fires are already burned buildings, but I've been listening the last month and they get their share of occupied structure fires & commercial fires. I am not exaggerating when I say that if turn on Broadcastify and listen in, there is either a Working Fire in progress, just ending, or one being dispatched. It's continuous. If this interests you, then read on.
 
The city has 28 Engines, 13 Ladders, 6 Squads, and 8 Battalion Chiefs. Within the city limits the cities of Hamtramck & Highland Park reside. These are two very small cities, both surrounded by Detroit and each is only about 2 square miles. Each city runs an engine and a ladder. They work in conjunction with Detroit and are even dispatched by Detroit. So adding in those two cities, Detroit is covered by 30 Engines, 15 Ladders, 6 Squads & 8 Battalions. I have NO idea how they have so many fires with such a relatively small department. In addition to the structure fires they have daily car fires, dumpster fires and also run first responder on medical calls. I am not sure what their mutual aid agreement is with surrounding cities. The firefighters in Detroit must go to work and expect to be working their whole shift on a daily basis. I'm just guessing but I assume they must rotate people from the quieter companies to the busier companies to keep them fresh. It sounds like everyday would be the equivalent of playing a football game. Again, only a guess, but the average Detroit firefighter probably lasts 20 years and then is completely broken-down and has to retire.
 
I like what they have for radio communications. They have fire dispatch on one frequency and then 8 fireground channels. They assign them by which chief is assigned first due to the box. If Battalion 4 is assigned, they assign Fireground 4. If there is another fire in Battalion 4's area, they just assign a fireground channel to whichever chief is coming in. "Companies responding to Main & Elm switch to Fireground 8 for Battalion 8."  In just a month I've heard numerous Working Fires going on at the same time.
 
There response, from what I can figure out is as follows:
Box Alarm 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion
Commercial Box Alarm: 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Squads, 2 Battalions
2nd Alarm: 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion (If it came is as a Box Alarm and they go to a 2nd it sounds like they round out the Commercial Box assignment along with the 2nd Alarm assignment.)
 
Their manning appears to be 4 on an Engine, Ladder, and Squad; however, all those units will drop to 3. So on any given shift Squad 1 may have 4 and Squad 2 may have 3. When they sign on location they'll declared their PAR. "Engine 9 on location, PAR 4." Here's what I don't understand, about 50 percent of the time a unit will sign off and say PAR 3 plus 1 or PAR 2 plus 1 or it may just be PAR 3 or PAR 4. So I don't think it's the number of firefighters plus the officer. All I can think of is that it must be Probies on the rig, which means about 20% of the department must be probies. The whole thing is just mind-boggling and I really can't wrap my brain around it. At busy times they must have 3 or 4 Workers at a time!
 
I'm sure many have heard about Devil's Night in Detroit (Oct. 30th). At one point they were averaging 80 structure fires on that night. I believe last year it was cut down to about 40. Well, Devil's Night is fast approaching and I will be sure to listen in. God Bless the Detroit firefighters and stay safe!

About a month ago, Detroit was being pounded by heavy rains. I put them on Broadcastify to listen in. They were running trees down, wires down and cars stuck in the flooding underpasses. I looked on the Internet for Detroit Fire to get an idea of what they run. What I found is astounding. Detroit is the arson capital of the world! It's almost like "The Bronx is Burning" back in the '70's & 80's. In a nutshell they have about 5,000 Working Fires or greater each year (that's about 13 a day). That's more than FDNY!! I couldn't believe it. Granted many of their fires are already burned buildings, but I've been listening the last month and they get their share of occupied structure fires & commercial fires. I am not exaggerating when I say that if turn on Broadcastify and listen in, there is either a Working Fire in progress, just ending, or one being dispatched. It's continuous. If this interests you, then read on.
 
The city has 28 Engines, 13 Ladders, 6 Squads, and 8 Battalion Chiefs. Within the city limits the cities of Hamtramck & Highland Park reside. These are two very small cities, both surrounded by Detroit and each is only about 2 square miles. Each city runs an engine and a ladder. They work in conjunction with Detroit and are even dispatched by Detroit. So adding in those two cities, Detroit is covered by 30 Engines, 15 Ladders, 6 Squads & 8 Battalions. I have NO idea how they have so many fires with such a relatively small department. In addition to the structure fires they have daily car fires, dumpster fires and also run first responder on medical calls. I am not sure what their mutual aid agreement is with surrounding cities. The firefighters in Detroit must go to work and expect to be working their whole shift on a daily basis. I'm just guessing but I assume they must rotate people from the quieter companies to the busier companies to keep them fresh. It sounds like everyday would be the equivalent of playing a football game. Again, only a guess, but the average Detroit firefighter probably lasts 20 years and then is completely broken-down and has to retire.
 
I like what they have for radio communications. They have fire dispatch on one frequency and then 8 fireground channels. They assign them by which chief is assigned first due to the box. If Battalion 4 is assigned, they assign Fireground 4. If there is another fire in Battalion 4's area, they just assign a fireground channel to whichever chief is coming in. "Companies responding to Main & Elm switch to Fireground 8 for Battalion 8."  In just a month I've heard numerous Working Fires going on at the same time.
 
There response, from what I can figure out is as follows:
Box Alarm 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion
Commercial Box Alarm: 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Squads, 2 Battalions
2nd Alarm: 3 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Squad, 1 Battalion (If it came is as a Box Alarm and they go to a 2nd it sounds like they round out the Commercial Box assignment along with the 2nd Alarm assignment.)
 
Their manning appears to be 4 on an Engine, Ladder, and Squad; however, all those units will drop to 3. So on any given shift Squad 1 may have 4 and Squad 2 may have 3. When they sign on location they'll declared their PAR. "Engine 9 on location, PAR 4." Here's what I don't understand, about 50 percent of the time a unit will sign off and say PAR 3 plus 1 or PAR 2 plus 1 or it may just be PAR 3 or PAR 4. So I don't think it's the number of firefighters plus the officer. All I can think of is that it must be Probies on the rig, which means about 20% of the department must be probies. The whole thing is just mind-boggling and I really can't wrap my brain around it. At busy times they must have 3 or 4 Workers at a time!
 
I'm sure many have heard about Devil's Night in Detroit (Oct. 30th). At one point they were averaging 80 structure fires on that night. I believe last year it was cut down to about 40. Well, Devil's Night is fast approaching and I will be sure to listen in. God Bless the Detroit firefighters and stay safe!