antiquefirelt

You can not make turns in a private dwelling with a 2.5 try it you don't even need to flow water. And this fire was manageable before numb nuts decided to leave the front door open.

Since I'm from away, can someone point to the actual limitations Christie signed into? Not that any of us like this type of restriction, but sometimes when you dig into it, it's all fluff with no real substance. I'd like to know just how bad the limitations are?

You'd also be pretty upset when an ambulance doesn't show up at your emergency...

Maybe they have better mental health programs and less reality TV shows?

If it was only about guns and gun control, then how does one explain Switzerland?
The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations; Switzerland thus has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world.
The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers).
Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus).
When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment.[citation needed] However, keeping the weapon after end of service requires a license.
The sale of ammunition – including Gw Pat.90 rounds for army-issue assault rifles – is subsidized by the Swiss government and made available at the many shooting ranges patronized by both private citizens and members of the militia. There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there
a 2001 BBC article reported that in Switzerland "the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept." Over the last 5 years they have averaged 18.4 gun homicides per year. Maybe they treat patients who require psychiatric care and they do not glorify the lone gunman who wants notoriety.

While I'm pretty anti-gun control, it's really only because I think any measure will be a first step for some people (Bloomberg and his ilk). Nonetheless, with regard to "a well regulated militia" the SCOTUS has already indicated that this means any citizens that are armed and not prevented from lawful ownership that may come together in a future time of need to form a group. It's not up to individual interpretation, it's been clarified in at least two rulings.
Banning the firearms in any manner or further restricting the rights of law abiding American citizens will not solve the issue. Ensuring that firearms do not fall into the hands that don't meet the "law-abiding American" test, is part of the solution. But again, my support is only when they can guarantee this won't be a stepping stone toward further restrictions on lawful owners.
As for the door secure posted? I think they're a great idea, I know I sure don't have better answer than ensuring teachers have anything they want/need to buy time or secure their classrooms. No offense to our Law Enforcement brethren, but the collective experience on this kind of school shooting doesn't lead to tried and true practices, so awaiting an LEO approved/suggested solution may not result in an immediate decrease int he number of victims. Suggesting people outside the "biz" have nothing to offer is very shortsighted. We all to often see everything through the same set of eyes with the same view as yesterday, that rarely leads to the best solutions.

Saying that gun control alone will solve any of this is fairly nearsighted. It ignores all of the other factors at play, such as mental illness and social media providing these loons with notoriety. Guns have been in the hands of ordinary citizens since the inception of this country, we need to examine what in the last twenty years has led to the proliferation of these types of incidents, the guns aren't a new factor, so we must examine these other new factors that have come into the picture. Sure I believe there should be gun controls, background checks, psychological tests, registering of certain weapons, but that's not going to stop these people. They are already willing to break the law and MURDER people, more laws aren't going to stop people already breaking the number one rule to not kill others! They will find a way to carry out their attacks, whether it be illegal guns, homemade bombs, or as we have seen in some instances a knife. We need to address the ever hushed problem of mental illness in this country, and the pandering of the media to these psychopaths. Why not pass a bill that you may not print pictures of the victims of such crimes nor the perpetrator, take away their spotlight. It will take away some of their sick motivation.

The MOS who refused this detail is well known as an extremely dedicated firefighter and trusted source of training knowledge. Outgoing Chief Ellerbe only details E30/T17 and E10/T13 to these assignments. These are some of the busiest companies in the country let alone the District and it would appear that he has an axe to grind with them. I've heard these referenced as the "retaliation companies". This guy can't leave town fast enough.

Honestly I don't see the problem with this, it's not like they are trying to mitigate the situation or take down the gunman. Sure doors can be breached, but most gunman aren't carrying around forcible entry tools with them just multiple weapons and ammo. These sickos are trying to inflict maximum damage in minimal time because they know sooner than later there will be armed response, something like this that slows them down could make them move on to try and find another target or buy precious time while law enforcement is en route in order to save lives. It's not like these people think they have found a solution to school shootings. Plenty of times in these instances you hear about teachers and students barricading themselves inside classrooms, this is just another method to accomplish just that. Why bash it if it could save lives? If your child was stuck in that room would you prefer if the teacher was just trying to hold the door shut from the inside or if they actually had a device like this to better accomplish the same task?
On top of all this, when is the national news media going to stop plastering these killers faces all over the place granting them their fifteen minutes of fame? It only further emboldens others to commit similar acts. Knowing they will achieve some infamy and exposure as they escape their own perceived notions of insignificance is a lot of what drives these lunatics. The media is more concerned with selling papers than they are with common sense and the safety of the public.

Many excellent points in David Rhodes blog. This is well worth the time to review his short messages. Thanks Cogs.

I'm interested in what the combination offers that you prefer it for room and contents or "smaller" fires? While I don't think fog nozzles are necessarily inferior (with proper training and use), I'm genuinely interested in the decision-making process people use when selecting hose/nozzle combinations.

because it is easier to operate! My 2cents I hate the give me more give me less pressure sh*t. The pump operator should know what he is pumping so that when the inside team asks for more pressure, the pump operator should know right away there is a problem somewhere between the pump and the nozzle, kink, burst length, clog, etc. jacking up the pressure till the wheels are bouncing off the ground is not gonna solve that problem. Driving is more that waving to the crowd. I am going back to my cave now.

While I personally favor the smoothbore, I have found that some combination nozzle proponents have fairly strong evidence to support their use in structural firefighting as well. When properly adjusted all the way to the right (right is right, left for lobster) the straight stream when flowed at the same gpm easily matches the reach and penetration in most interior fires. Many very experienced FD's use combo nozzles every day quite successfully. Our guys are split between using the Vindicator or the 15/16" tip, with the fog nozzles rarely stretched. With proper training (it took many years to erase the 30 degree fog lessons) the combination nozzle when flowed at adequate gpm work just fine. I'm not sure I'd select one when operating off a standpipe but, still many do, the key as always is proper application and use. I can say I doubt we'll ever buy another 100psi combo tip, but a 75 psi fog likely has a place on a well appointed engine.
As for TFT's and many of the other new gimmicks, I'd agree their just new ways to liberate dollars from unsuspecting customers.

Finally!
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/06/kenneth-ellerbe-d-c-fire-chief-will-step-down-next-month-103812.html
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/5/embattled-dc-fire-chief-announces-retirement/
No doubt there are many smiles today at the DCFEMS DCFD!!

While I personally favor the smoothbore, I have found that some combination nozzle proponents have fairly strong evidence to support their use in structural firefighting as well. When properly adjusted all the way to the right (right is right, left for lobster) the straight stream when flowed at the same gpm easily matches the reach and penetration in most interior fires. Many very experienced FD's use combo nozzles every day quite successfully. Our guys are split between using the Vindicator or the 15/16" tip, with the fog nozzles rarely stretched. With proper training (it took many years to erase the 30 degree fog lessons) the combination nozzle when flowed at adequate gpm work just fine. I'm not sure I'd select one when operating off a standpipe but, still many do, the key as always is proper application and use. I can say I doubt we'll ever buy another 100psi combo tip, but a 75 psi fog likely has a place on a well appointed engine.
As for TFT's and many of the other new gimmicks, I'd agree their just new ways to liberate dollars from unsuspecting customers.

What should be taught to everyone regardless of experience is the need for something to be done. Not meaning do something if you are just standing there, but make sure everything that should be done is being completed.
Adequate line like this story exposed.
Adequate egress.
Adequate manpower for relief.
Adequate monitoring of members levels of exhaustion.
I still to this day can not figure out some things that are different between fighting a fire at work and fighting one for free (volunteer). Always a difference even though the only thing you need is water. Ill ask a main pet peeve in another thread now that I think about it.

Many excellent points in David Rhodes blog. This is well worth the time to review his short messages. Thanks Cogs.

Good short and to the point article that reinforces the words of the late Andrew Fredericks:
"If you put the fire out there's no reason to jump out of windows"
http://community.fireengineering.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1219672:BlogPost:596767

Best and worst thing to ever come to the firehouse was WiFi!

EEEEasy, there big fella. That's how things get blown out of proportion. First, let's get that "Heroic" off the marquee. Heroic means that you put yourself in great danger to save a life. That was not the case. Like most rescues the rescuer happens to be at the right place at the right time.
All we did was make a pickup that just involved some maneuvering to get to them. Granted they were on the brink of drowning, but it was just a pickup by a boat with 2 firefighters aboard. We just did what we always do, even on our day off. Not heroic at all.
Let's make some use out of this thread and make it a training session on marine rescue of persons in the water and in distress operating from a private vessel from a private boat.
People who are on the brink of drowning usually do not call for help. They are silent with a look of panic. If they show these signs, they are going down very soon.
SOP
1. Call Mayday... get help on way
2. Never lose sight of victim. Point your arm in vic.s direction for your boat's driver to aim
3 When close enough throw PFD's or anything that floats DO NOT enter the water
4 Throw rope if needed DO NOT enter the water
5 Once vic is alongside ensure motor is off so there are no prop injuries
6 Haul vic at the lowest point , usually it's the stern. DO NOT ENTER WATER
7 DO NOT ENTER WATER (Are you getting the point?)
"Heroic" is a pretty heavy word. Don't use it lightly

It is far too easy to use hindsight to explain the "just get in there" train of thought. Our not knowing the layout of the structure, the location of the building, the conditions on arrival (true observed conditions) and how quickly incoming companies would be arriving I find it hard to support the actions you propose. On the other hand, had the chief made the grab, there would likely be a reversal of some of this thinking.
Conditions dictate actions, maybe some of you are privy to far more insight than is accessible to the rest of us in web-world. Had the trapped occupant been halfway out the rear window awaiting a ladder or laying at the foot of the rear wall, how would one justify missing the 360 to make an unsupported search? Does the Chief carry SCBA? Were the conditions such to allow him a probe without one? How large is the structure? How detailed is the report of the victim? Too many variables for me to advocate always diving in head first.

A couple of thoughts here.
I really have no knowledge of how the HFD operates aside from what I read here. What it sounds like is the Chief turns out first since he doesn't dress and gets there first and does the 360 as the other apparatus is entering the block. So he or she isn't really a viable option for running in and making a grab. In the FDNY everywhere I have ever been the Chief lets the companies out and closes the doors for everyone and then trails all the apparatus. In fact if we are responding and come upon the chief 9 times out of 10 they pull over and let us by.
As for the conundrum of what to do when faced with a known life hazard upon arrival with limited staffing I see no hard fast answer. Our procedures are quite clear that an engine should not abandon stretching a line to address life hazards aside from extreme conditions. Now this was one of those things I used to fight in my mind when I would first read it but along with many others I now come to realize the genius of those sharp lads who wrote this stuff back in the day. The reality is if there's a fire bad enough to trap someone the situation is probably getting worse by the second. If we forgo stretching the line the fire will get bigger. That's not to say that in some situations you may need to go for the life hazard but it's one of the ultimate judgement calls. Putting out the fire makes lots of problems go away while letting the fire grow makes new problems by the second.
As for the 360 if you're not doing it you should start right now. Do it on everything to make it second nature (CO, Gas, AFAs). The amount of information that you can gain with it is immense. In that private dwelling fire a major part of it is ruling out the basement fire which is critical and not always apparent-think balloon frame. If you look back at a lot of LODD country wide over the last 20 years you see plenty of incidents where something that could easily have been determined by the 360 killed members.

It is far too easy to use hindsight to explain the "just get in there" train of thought. Our not knowing the layout of the structure, the location of the building, the conditions on arrival (true observed conditions) and how quickly incoming companies would be arriving I find it hard to support the actions you propose. On the other hand, had the chief made the grab, there would likely be a reversal of some of this thinking.
Conditions dictate actions, maybe some of you are privy to far more insight than is accessible to the rest of us in web-world. Had the trapped occupant been halfway out the rear window awaiting a ladder or laying at the foot of the rear wall, how would one justify missing the 360 to make an unsupported search? Does the Chief carry SCBA? Were the conditions such to allow him a probe without one? How large is the structure? How detailed is the report of the victim? Too many variables for me to advocate always diving in head first.

It is far too easy to use hindsight to explain the "just get in there" train of thought. Our not knowing the layout of the structure, the location of the building, the conditions on arrival (true observed conditions) and how quickly incoming companies would be arriving I find it hard to support the actions you propose. On the other hand, had the chief made the grab, there would likely be a reversal of some of this thinking.
Conditions dictate actions, maybe some of you are privy to far more insight than is accessible to the rest of us in web-world. Had the trapped occupant been halfway out the rear window awaiting a ladder or laying at the foot of the rear wall, how would one justify missing the 360 to make an unsupported search? Does the Chief carry SCBA? Were the conditions such to allow him a probe without one? How large is the structure? How detailed is the report of the victim? Too many variables for me to advocate always diving in head first.

An initial 360 is a critical step and mandatory in most of the country. Most people would consider that action by the first arriving IC with the first alarm right behind them spot on.
The members were confronted with a KNOWN life hazard. So individual searches were both permitted and called for in this situation. Looks like the HFD did a bang up job based on what they were confronted with and their limited staffing.
Would you like the IC to drive like a nut half dress and sprint into the front door as the companies arrive to make the grab???
The search team to hold hands or tether themselves to the hose while a victims fights for every last breath?
Many times in this form we are critical of highly risky tactics when they were not warranted. In this case it seems the members did exactly what they should have. The Chief should be understandably proud of his men. Nice work HFD.