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In December 2008, I had the opportunity to assist in a live burn of a MCD's. The live burn was jointly conducted by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and the Engineering Department of the University of North Carolina. The structure was constructed in the 1980's and had a wood truss roof. Heat measuring thermocouples were placed in the building and the entire structure was fully documented with sketches, measurements,video and photographs.The purpose for the live burn was to collect data on how these structures hold up under fire conditions. The results of the burn are to be part of a future NIST Report. The fire was started using ordinary combustibles in a garbage can in the managers office. This room was located in the center of the structure.
Its my estimation that the roof held up for approximately 15-20 minutes from the inception of the fire. I quite frankly expected the truss roof to fail earlier in the fire since the roof components were unprotected.
Attached are the photographs from my position on a roof top across the street from the MCD's.

131 Washington St Assenza's Deli
All photos property of JETPHOTO

Date: 03-25-10
Time: 0730hrs
Location: Trenton St.
Departments:
Description: Heavy fire, through the roof, in a large 2.5-frame P/D.
Writer: Truck4
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/03/lawrence_firefi_1.html

An accountability as a system, whoever's system you are using is not perfect. However, accountability as an ATTITUDE should be as close to perfect as humanly possible. What I mean by an attitude is this: you call yourselves brothers. You came to the incident with that brother. It's your duty as his brother to watch out for him and know where he is all the time. and he is suppposed to do the same.
No tags, IC boards, signup sheets, or federal labor law will ever be as close to perfect as that bond between brothers.
That's accountability.

GREAT post - THANK YOU!

Well this is a topic that can't be adequetely covered in a couple hundred words on here. Here are some things that come off the top of my head.
1. Risk Management-The whole thing will depend on if the place is opened or closed. If it's open some sort of interior attack will probably be necessary to attempt a primary search. After the joint has closed the only life hazard becomes us and any advanced fire the risk may very well outweight the benifit of interior attack.
2. Water supply- Lay in (don't count on somebody else to do it for you). 2 1/2 with a smooth bore is an excellent choice in commercial for a number of reasons. Great reach, absorbs lots of btu's, and is powerful so that is blows those ceiling tiles apart and penetrates to the fire.
3. Thermal Imaging Camera- The TIC is always important but at a commercial building where you have high ceilings it may be your first warning of heat build up above your head. A good tactic is to lift up a ceiling tile on entry and check the plenum for fire before you venture in too far below it. The TIC will help you stay orientated, find victims, keep track of your crew, and locating the fire).
4. In many cases we will be dealing with truss roofs so roof ops is out.
5. Consider using the search rope if you are entering without a handline.
6. A middle of the night fire in one of these buildings is a good canidate for a backdraft.
Most of the fires you will encounter in these buildings are duct fires which have different tactics. Lastly here is the link to a LODD report about a fire in a McDonald's in Houston Texas that occured in 2000. This tragic fire took the lives of two firefighters.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200013.html

Many departments have a fast food joint in their response area, but how many are REALLY familiar with the building? I don't mean how often do you eat there - I mean how well do you KNOW the building? Construction? How will it react in a case of a working fire in it? What chemicals and hazard are in it?
I have often heard these building referred to as "disposable structures"; poorly built, fast fire spread, heavy load on the roof, etc.
I have never fought a fire in one, but have several in my first due; McDonald's...Subway...etc.
Looking for your tips, tactics, experience, and knowledge.....

Companies ride with fog nozzle attached to be used primarily for exposure protection - for cockloft operations they switched to the solid stream as they did here later on.

Thanks Chris. Exellent points. Just for clarification our additional alarms are normally 2 Engines and 1 Truck so that would be only 12 people total (all companies are staffed by 1 Officer and 3 Firefighters). The remaining Battalion Chief with his Aide (there are two on duty at all times) and the on call Deputy (no aide) come with the second alarm so the second alarm would actually have 15 members and all additional alarms would have 12 members.
We call mutual aide once we go below 3 Engines and 2 Ladders in the City and we do try to get them back to their municipality as soon as possible by freeing up in service companies as well as recalling off duty members to man spare apparatus which are normally equipped and ready to go. We also call in an off duty Battalion Chief with Aide to man a spare Battalion car and cover the city once we go to a third alarm. One thing we are lacking which we have been fighting for years for is 24 / 7 Fire Department supervision of the civilain Fire Dispatchers which would really help in situations like last night. There was a lot of scrambling behind the scenes to keep the city adequately covered, as well as get our off duty members in and out the door on the spares, send the mutual aid back, rotate fresh crews to the fire scene, transport injured or exhausted members etc. while at the same time maintaining accountability of everyone and everything....thanks to the mutual aid departments who came in as well as cooperation from union leaders, off duty members, etc. this was all handled pretty well last night.
Although you point out the benefits of certain aspects of our manning and organization, I would state that we are actually at a bare minimum right now and I couldn't imagine what would happen if we were forced to operate with less companies, less manning on the companies, or less staffing on the administrative side.

Almost 30 years ago, around 98 or 100 Elliot Ave- Thomas Wanstall Photo from yfd.org.. and yesterday

We utilized 3 spare engines and 1 spare ladder which gave us 3 and 2 at which point we released the mutual aid. We didn't wind up manning the other spare ladder.

Ok, all I did was ask a question. I really didnt mean to start a huge thread or a big pissing match. I was just wondering what the reasoning beyond it was. I was a simple question. And as for this whole reputation ranking thing on the site, I am just curious why I am at negative now for asking a question? I guess I now know my lesson and that is to not ask questions and your rep will never be impacted up or down. I do want to say thanks to the Chief from Highland for answering the question. He didnt have to but he did and I appreciate it.

One of the main reasons why Hughsonville was set up as mutual aid was because the old captain orignally was good friends with people over there, due to why it stands im not honestly too sure but it is all for good cause. I do agree with you between loosing resources and also have a department from further away when there are plenty closer ones but across the river thier resources are limited.

I was just learnig ebonics and now they throw youngbonics and texting at me.

Why would the name continue to have "Volunteer" in it? It is deceptive and an insult to actual volunteer agencies......

Why would the name continue to have "Volunteer" in it? It is deceptive and an insult to actual volunteer agencies......

Why would the name continue to have "Volunteer" in it? It is deceptive and an insult to actual volunteer agencies......

heard something about a file 12 or something like that this afternoon over city pd

Don't worry chief it takes more than a bunch of caps to offend me (lol). If an elevator can actually snap a haligan, probably not, but this is what was told to us by the mechanic who knows alot more than I do about elevators. At least I hope he does.
I am very familiar with the counterweight pulley system. Stuck occupied elevators calls are daily in Yonkers. As the chief has stated when the brakes are released the car moves upwards slowly.
Thanks for the info on the switch Mike, that is good to know. If you are trying to learn about elevator rescue and there is a free course available, it sounds like a no brainer. Mike any info on when the course will be offered again? Good luck with training all and stay safe.....

.firehouse traditions.....
I like leather helmets...
I like Gamewell Systems...
I like rubber pull up boots....
I like doing what it takes to get the job done, even if it isnt "by the book"....
I like old brick firehouses...
I like orange Fireball gloves....
I like booster hoses....even more if they are on reels.....
I like veritcal ventilation, but not as an afterthought...
I like "progression", but not at the expense of tradtion.
Too many traditions are lost in this day and age..

State Fire administrator has authority to create additional teams
NYC = NYTF-1
Capital District Team = NYTF-2
They have not designated any additional teams because they claim they do not have the resources ($$$$$)to validate any others at this time.
The Career Chief's have a template which utililzes over 9 dept's - The Yonkers team as well as the Squads from other career dep'ts.
Yonkers recently deployed over 50 personnel with a squad from Greenville (for a total of just under 60) to the Buffalo area for operation Vigiant Guard for a 4 day exercise. Outside of the 2 teams mentioned above there were no other NY resources there that were even close to our capabiltiy.
Why do I point this out - it is becasue of the politics on the County and state level of pandering to every little group out there that wants to be a State team. The state knows if they acknowledge any additional groups it would create a "me too" effect and they would not want to stir up that hornets nest state wide.
The career depts in Westchester have trained, have a "real" track record and the resources to be designated a state team - It has always been my contention that these other teams are a drain on the system and create unneccessary duplication and competion for the limited resources available ($$$$$)
All the nice tales of training twice a month and having been activated (????) all sound nice but we all know the the truth - but no one wants to hear it or say it
But it all boils down to they don't want to hurt any ones feelings by telling them they are not needed or especially never going to be capable of measuring up to what they say they can be.
"The Emperor has no clothes", Don't upset the apple cart - that is the underlying message
Maybe the new C/E Rob Astorino if he is really concerned about cutting ($$$$$$) will realize that the County Hazmat & Tech Rescue team would be nice to have but are really a waste of resources that are already provided through other dept's - they all want to talk about sharing resources but they certainly don't want to offend anybody. Especially all of of the volunteer (aka voters) team members and fire fighters.
So go ahead and bang my post with the negative rep points - the more attention that is brought to it maybe the truth will finally surface - and that is all I have to say about that!

No REP for Mods....?

Someone said it earlier in one of the post. We as fire service organizations need to define what an alarm is. With technology what it is today there is no reason why any of us should not know the buildings we are going to. How many of us have heard a neighboring fire department get called out for a house fire and then go and look the address up on Google Earth. In Sullivan County's E-911 Systems a picture of the structure along with other relative life hazard and water source information comes up on the computer screen. It is then relayed to the responding units. Information like this changes how we as responders evaluate, look, and act at our alarms. The definition of a 1st alarm in a city is very different than one in a rural setting. With this information we can better determine what a 1st alarm is going to be in different areas.
When it come to the topic of relocating or even responding with an engine or truck. What we need is the fire service leaders to give us their expectations of what they want from mutual aid. If as a consensus the various emergency services leaders say, "I want XYZ when I call for ABC.", than we have a guideline to respond to incidents with that everyone can agree on. I'm not sure if a county could place such a policy into a mutual aid plan, such as a minimum manning clause. I.E. A manned fire engine or ladder truck will consist of 1 driver and 3 interior firefighters. If Engine ABC1 is requested for mutual aid perhaps they should call out with the personnel on the engine. "Engine ABC1 is responding manned with 3." or "Engine ABC1 is responding undermanned with 2". For the fire chiefs out there how would knowing the manning levels of incoming mutual aid you as the IC?

Our district already has one elevator, and is soon to be gaining another one via new construction right in the village. This one is going to be used a lot more than the current one, but regardless I would like to brush up and learn more on the ins and outs of getting a person or persons removed from an elevator that will not operate, and any other incidents that may occur involving one.
My experience is limited so I know this is the place to come to to help me, thanks to everyone who responds and takes the time to put together their knowledge.
How do you train or how would you train? Any evolutions or is it simply a verbal discourse on the subject with perhaps a Power Point slide to back it up?

you are absolutly right but what about the time it takes for people to get to the fire house to responed with the fire apparatus. What do you think is the problem with some dept. not getting out.