firemoose827

AH, but there's a catch. It's a thing called Expectation of Services which is a legal term. It means that if you advertise or imply that you can provide a service, you must then be able to provide that service. If your big truck says Fire Department on the side and the guys that get off it are wearing what appears to be fireman clothes, then the people you responded to have every right to believe that you are fully qualified to do the job of a fireman.
Expectation of Services only comes into play when you screw up. For example, if you are extricating Suzie Q above, and in doing the extrication you cause further injury, the first thing Suzie's lawyer will want to see is your qualification and training

Im fearful of getting any fires in the next few days, our manpower is already thin, with this heat we will drop like flies, (more emphasis on the overweight bunch like myself) but my department doesnt feel the need to have rehab or the ladies bring us refreshments...
Stay safe in this heat gang, watch each other and keep hydrated.

Yes. As an assistant chief, if I call for mutual aid for tankers and manpower...I want that manpower to be ready, able and trained to fight fires. Usually you will get a mix of members; some interior, some exterior, even some who are brand new members that have new turnouts on (but cant use them) and are basically good for "gopher" duties only. And in some cases you get more explorers riding the rig then firefighters.
Same for accident scenes; I shouldnt have to ask if you are trained to extricate someone from a vehicle, if you dont have AVET then you shouldnt be on the rescue truck when it rolls to an MVA.
My bitch for years has been to adopt the same standards as EMT's in our state. They have to go through a certification process involving training (classroom and hands on), and two tests in order to receive your license. Then you have to re-cert every three years. THATS the way it should be for firefighters, but I feel a good re-cert term for us would be five years. Show up, demonstrate you still know the basic skills in the training facility, take a test and your re-certified. Fail...and you have to re-take the training. Lots of people hate the idea, yet they still bitch on these forums that training standards should be taken more seriously state wide for firefighters....I feel this idea is a good option; is it the ultimate cure for the problem? Never. But its a good option that should be considered and revised to suit our needs.
But I agree; same training for every firefighter, paid or volunteer, big city or small rural farm community with one engine and 6 members. Same across the board so every "firefighter" on scene can do every task required of them.

Welcome to New York State

I was going to "reply" to your comment but I think Sage, firecapt32 and Bnechis did a fine job of explaining things better to you.
But I can ask you a few questions to paint a better picture for you; what if a cop grabbed a well intentioned bystander, who "just wanted to help his neighbors", gave him some body armor and an AR 15, and told them to enter a bank filled with hostages and save them? Do you think the outcome will be positive, or messy??
OK, now take a Paramedic at an MCI accident. This medic grabs that same John Q Public guy who realy wants to help and tells him to go start an IV on the two unconcious people in the one car and do a needle chest decompression on them as well...are we getting anywhere yet??
If you want to help your neighbor thats great, I salute you and encourage you, but you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING if you truly want to help someone. Training is essential to the fire service. It must be done, and it must be maintained and refreshed or you will end up killing someone.
Im sorry, but your attitude towards the fire service and how you feel you dont need training to be a firefighter is dangerous, and its how we have so many LODD's to think about.
Just one last thought to leave you with; your the John Q Public guy who realy wants to help, you jump on the shiny fire engine when the siren goes off, because you know, you want to help, right? When you arrive on scene you hear someone yelling for help, theres smoke coming from the structure but no fire, and you run up to the front door with your cape fluttering and your chest puffed out and you open the door..........do we still have viable victims to rescue at this point? Did we know what the signs of impending backdraft were before opening the door? Did we know where the fire was and have it properly vented and hoselines in place? But hey; you just want to help...
Get training, or like everyone else told you already join the red cross or the local church so you can help.

I was going to "reply" to your comment but I think Sage, firecapt32 and Bnechis did a fine job of explaining things better to you.
But I can ask you a few questions to paint a better picture for you; what if a cop grabbed a well intentioned bystander, who "just wanted to help his neighbors", gave him some body armor and an AR 15, and told them to enter a bank filled with hostages and save them? Do you think the outcome will be positive, or messy??
OK, now take a Paramedic at an MCI accident. This medic grabs that same John Q Public guy who realy wants to help and tells him to go start an IV on the two unconcious people in the one car and do a needle chest decompression on them as well...are we getting anywhere yet??
If you want to help your neighbor thats great, I salute you and encourage you, but you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING if you truly want to help someone. Training is essential to the fire service. It must be done, and it must be maintained and refreshed or you will end up killing someone.
Im sorry, but your attitude towards the fire service and how you feel you dont need training to be a firefighter is dangerous, and its how we have so many LODD's to think about.
Just one last thought to leave you with; your the John Q Public guy who realy wants to help, you jump on the shiny fire engine when the siren goes off, because you know, you want to help, right? When you arrive on scene you hear someone yelling for help, theres smoke coming from the structure but no fire, and you run up to the front door with your cape fluttering and your chest puffed out and you open the door..........do we still have viable victims to rescue at this point? Did we know what the signs of impending backdraft were before opening the door? Did we know where the fire was and have it properly vented and hoselines in place? But hey; you just want to help...
Get training, or like everyone else told you already join the red cross or the local church so you can help.

I was going to "reply" to your comment but I think Sage, firecapt32 and Bnechis did a fine job of explaining things better to you.
But I can ask you a few questions to paint a better picture for you; what if a cop grabbed a well intentioned bystander, who "just wanted to help his neighbors", gave him some body armor and an AR 15, and told them to enter a bank filled with hostages and save them? Do you think the outcome will be positive, or messy??
OK, now take a Paramedic at an MCI accident. This medic grabs that same John Q Public guy who realy wants to help and tells him to go start an IV on the two unconcious people in the one car and do a needle chest decompression on them as well...are we getting anywhere yet??
If you want to help your neighbor thats great, I salute you and encourage you, but you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING if you truly want to help someone. Training is essential to the fire service. It must be done, and it must be maintained and refreshed or you will end up killing someone.
Im sorry, but your attitude towards the fire service and how you feel you dont need training to be a firefighter is dangerous, and its how we have so many LODD's to think about.
Just one last thought to leave you with; your the John Q Public guy who realy wants to help, you jump on the shiny fire engine when the siren goes off, because you know, you want to help, right? When you arrive on scene you hear someone yelling for help, theres smoke coming from the structure but no fire, and you run up to the front door with your cape fluttering and your chest puffed out and you open the door..........do we still have viable victims to rescue at this point? Did we know what the signs of impending backdraft were before opening the door? Did we know where the fire was and have it properly vented and hoselines in place? But hey; you just want to help...
Get training, or like everyone else told you already join the red cross or the local church so you can help.

I was going to "reply" to your comment but I think Sage, firecapt32 and Bnechis did a fine job of explaining things better to you.
But I can ask you a few questions to paint a better picture for you; what if a cop grabbed a well intentioned bystander, who "just wanted to help his neighbors", gave him some body armor and an AR 15, and told them to enter a bank filled with hostages and save them? Do you think the outcome will be positive, or messy??
OK, now take a Paramedic at an MCI accident. This medic grabs that same John Q Public guy who realy wants to help and tells him to go start an IV on the two unconcious people in the one car and do a needle chest decompression on them as well...are we getting anywhere yet??
If you want to help your neighbor thats great, I salute you and encourage you, but you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING if you truly want to help someone. Training is essential to the fire service. It must be done, and it must be maintained and refreshed or you will end up killing someone.
Im sorry, but your attitude towards the fire service and how you feel you dont need training to be a firefighter is dangerous, and its how we have so many LODD's to think about.
Just one last thought to leave you with; your the John Q Public guy who realy wants to help, you jump on the shiny fire engine when the siren goes off, because you know, you want to help, right? When you arrive on scene you hear someone yelling for help, theres smoke coming from the structure but no fire, and you run up to the front door with your cape fluttering and your chest puffed out and you open the door..........do we still have viable victims to rescue at this point? Did we know what the signs of impending backdraft were before opening the door? Did we know where the fire was and have it properly vented and hoselines in place? But hey; you just want to help...
Get training, or like everyone else told you already join the red cross or the local church so you can help.

I just wanted to clarify my position here, I wrote this in the FAST topic and quickly saw how many of you could get confused and call me out on this issue, so allow me to clarify;
I believe there can be two forms of membership in the volunteer service; Firefighters, and "Support Personnel". The firefighters need that standard of training for the whole state, to be on the same page as other firefighters and I believe that we should have to get licensed like EMT's and Paramedics have to, so we have to re-certify every 5 years to keep up to date on old and new skills and demonstrate to an official person that we can still PERFORM those skills AND have the knowledge needed to stay alive, that we didnt forget it or that we actually PAYED ATTENTION during classes. Around here I see it too much; young guys go take every class, YET they are in the back row, no note books or pens, joking around with "buddies", not paying attention and there is NO TEST. At the end you go up and get your pretty piece of cardboard with you name on it and some fancy signatures from the fire administrator and fire coordinator (that means absolutely NOTHING without the "Passed Exam" in the upper corner) and go back to your station and start to brag about it...
I feel that by having to pass both a written exam and practical exam, supervised by state officials from the fire service, in order to receive a "Firefighter I" License (Like a NYS EMT Card but for Firefighter I, II, III, Fire Officer I, II,III, and Haz-Mat Tech I, II, III) it would force these younger guys to pay attention and actually learn, and by re-certifying every five years its not just a get the certificate and throw it out and forget it type thing anymore, you need to stay on top of things, read articles, attend other classes so you can pass the re-cert tests. Thats what the volunteer fire service needs.
As far as "Support Personnel", they can be like the old "Fire Patrol" units. They can support exterior ops like hose lays, drafting, ladder positioning, rehab areas, staging areas and then later assist with salvage operations and re-packing the hose and cleaning tools so the exhausted firefighters can take time to re-charge. Or like I mentioned in my quote, assist with shelters and other support functions like fund raisers and fire prevention activities.

I was going to "reply" to your comment but I think Sage, firecapt32 and Bnechis did a fine job of explaining things better to you.
But I can ask you a few questions to paint a better picture for you; what if a cop grabbed a well intentioned bystander, who "just wanted to help his neighbors", gave him some body armor and an AR 15, and told them to enter a bank filled with hostages and save them? Do you think the outcome will be positive, or messy??
OK, now take a Paramedic at an MCI accident. This medic grabs that same John Q Public guy who realy wants to help and tells him to go start an IV on the two unconcious people in the one car and do a needle chest decompression on them as well...are we getting anywhere yet??
If you want to help your neighbor thats great, I salute you and encourage you, but you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING if you truly want to help someone. Training is essential to the fire service. It must be done, and it must be maintained and refreshed or you will end up killing someone.
Im sorry, but your attitude towards the fire service and how you feel you dont need training to be a firefighter is dangerous, and its how we have so many LODD's to think about.
Just one last thought to leave you with; your the John Q Public guy who realy wants to help, you jump on the shiny fire engine when the siren goes off, because you know, you want to help, right? When you arrive on scene you hear someone yelling for help, theres smoke coming from the structure but no fire, and you run up to the front door with your cape fluttering and your chest puffed out and you open the door..........do we still have viable victims to rescue at this point? Did we know what the signs of impending backdraft were before opening the door? Did we know where the fire was and have it properly vented and hoselines in place? But hey; you just want to help...
Get training, or like everyone else told you already join the red cross or the local church so you can help.

A few points, I'm still a VERY new Instructor but they stand true:
1. Firefighter training should be a mix of classroom (cognitive) training and practical (psychomotor) skills, culminating in certification exams that require mastery in both.
2. Naturally you will pick some things up by watching scenes, but you won't understand the science behind WHY people are performing that action, which limits your ability to think critically when it comes to choosing tactics, etc. If you have so many extra interior members that can explain that stuff as it happens to the exterior guys during a structure fire, then guess what, you have the manpower for a FAST.
3. Whose to say the activities you're watching are good practices? Plenty of us have some bad habits (myself included) that you SHOULDN'T be learning.
Finally I'll pass along something my FF2 instructor told us about learning by watching instead or participating. "I've watched Eddie Van Halen play 'Eruption' a couple of times, doesn't mean I can play guitar."

1) my neighbor needs help putting out the garbage and mowing thelawn andthere are many others just like them.
2) I agree with you about the "Label" of firefighter. I have a big problem with a dept claiming to the public it has 100 FIREFIGHTERS, when we start counting and find 20 have retired to Fl. but still make the annual dinner, another 10 are in "skilled nursing facilities" and 40 of them are exterior only ("Support Personnel") That means you only have 30 "Firefighters" and 25 of them work out of the area.
I do not mind if a VFD is honest to itself and the public. But Isee deptslike the one above claiming to the public that they are protecting them...Its great to help your neighbors, if you are actually helping them.

wanna help your neighbor and have don't think you need training--- pick up their garbage bring it to the dump-- volunteer at the library-- join the elks. firefighting is a dangerous profession whether you do it for a salary or not.. ask the 19 that lost their live in a forest fire!!!
Train train train when you think you have had enough train more
again just my thoughts

If you want to help your neighbor without training I suggest you join the Elks Club or the Lions. The stakes are much lower there. "Firefighting is an ultra hazardous occupation" and the neighbors you want to help (as well as your Brother and Sister Firefighters) DESERVE Fire Protection in line with the NATIONAL industry standard.
Hell, even CERT has a minimum national training standard, yet most fire departments rag on CERT members as wannabe's. But they took the time to train to a standard. I suppose they shouldn't have to either, just because they want to help their neighbor?

I just wanted to clarify my position here, I wrote this in the FAST topic and quickly saw how many of you could get confused and call me out on this issue, so allow me to clarify;
I believe there can be two forms of membership in the volunteer service; Firefighters, and "Support Personnel". The firefighters need that standard of training for the whole state, to be on the same page as other firefighters and I believe that we should have to get licensed like EMT's and Paramedics have to, so we have to re-certify every 5 years to keep up to date on old and new skills and demonstrate to an official person that we can still PERFORM those skills AND have the knowledge needed to stay alive, that we didnt forget it or that we actually PAYED ATTENTION during classes. Around here I see it too much; young guys go take every class, YET they are in the back row, no note books or pens, joking around with "buddies", not paying attention and there is NO TEST. At the end you go up and get your pretty piece of cardboard with you name on it and some fancy signatures from the fire administrator and fire coordinator (that means absolutely NOTHING without the "Passed Exam" in the upper corner) and go back to your station and start to brag about it...
I feel that by having to pass both a written exam and practical exam, supervised by state officials from the fire service, in order to receive a "Firefighter I" License (Like a NYS EMT Card but for Firefighter I, II, III, Fire Officer I, II,III, and Haz-Mat Tech I, II, III) it would force these younger guys to pay attention and actually learn, and by re-certifying every five years its not just a get the certificate and throw it out and forget it type thing anymore, you need to stay on top of things, read articles, attend other classes so you can pass the re-cert tests. Thats what the volunteer fire service needs.
As far as "Support Personnel", they can be like the old "Fire Patrol" units. They can support exterior ops like hose lays, drafting, ladder positioning, rehab areas, staging areas and then later assist with salvage operations and re-packing the hose and cleaning tools so the exhausted firefighters can take time to re-charge. Or like I mentioned in my quote, assist with shelters and other support functions like fund raisers and fire prevention activities.

1) To answer your first part simply; its called leadership. If your IC allows these drivers and "exterior" people to lead a rescue there are more issues in your department then you know. IC is set up for a reason, make them do their jobs better and these exterior ops guys wont be charging in the to "rescue".
Before I continue, I agree with you 100% about the training standards needing to be the same across the state, if your title says "Firefighter" then you should have all the necessary training, and the right amount and type of training, to back that up.
In my area it is common to see "exterior support" members (notice I didnt call them firefighters) that take training called "Scene Support Operations". These members are valuable to us as well. They assist the pump operator set up portable ponds, set up drafting operations, stretch and move around hose lines, chase kinks in hose lines, set up ladders on all sides of the building for emergency egress purposes, set up staging areas for tools, set up rehab areas for outcoming firefighters to get water and fresh bottles...it goes on and on. If you have to use interior firefighters to do all of these tasks...whos fighting the fire? Around here due to lack of help it would be nobody, cause they would all be doing these tasks first, THEN packing up and going in. We see them as valuable resources that can still be used to help their communities. During the storms (Irene and Sandy) these exterior support members would head up the shelter relief efforts alongside our ladies aux. units, doing the cooking for shelter workers, setting up the piles and piles of donations that were coming in and sorting them and distributing them (Our station ended up being a shelter for months due to the devastation in my area) and delivering much needed supplies to the hardest hit areas in my county. Some of these members put in hundreds of hours, hundreds of miles on their personal 4WD vehicles (to reach flood victims with food and clothing and cleaning supplies) so that those of us who are firefighters could be available to respond to actual emergency calls and not be tied up with shelter ops. They are usefull to some volunteer agencies, what needs to happen is the ability to think outside the box and realize that some communities are different then others and have different needs. Like the difference between westchester county and my county.
As far as "Firefighters", hands down 100% without-a-doubt agree that we NEED the same training across the board. I would have loved to have taken the career academy when I first started out 24 years ago, but I made due. I took every and all training classes that came to my county, and even traveled to the fire academy in Montaur Falls a dozen times for good training. There are several courses I have taken 2-3 times already, and 1 or 2 that I have taken 4 times or more to refresh. I continue to train as well and will not stop, even though I am assistant chief. Just because I wear a white hat now doesnt mean I wont be needed to stretch and initial attack line, or do the primary search, or vent for the attack team. I will still be ready, and continue to train until I am old a frail, and will have to be forced to stop.

I just wanted to clarify my position here, I wrote this in the FAST topic and quickly saw how many of you could get confused and call me out on this issue, so allow me to clarify;
I believe there can be two forms of membership in the volunteer service; Firefighters, and "Support Personnel". The firefighters need that standard of training for the whole state, to be on the same page as other firefighters and I believe that we should have to get licensed like EMT's and Paramedics have to, so we have to re-certify every 5 years to keep up to date on old and new skills and demonstrate to an official person that we can still PERFORM those skills AND have the knowledge needed to stay alive, that we didnt forget it or that we actually PAYED ATTENTION during classes. Around here I see it too much; young guys go take every class, YET they are in the back row, no note books or pens, joking around with "buddies", not paying attention and there is NO TEST. At the end you go up and get your pretty piece of cardboard with you name on it and some fancy signatures from the fire administrator and fire coordinator (that means absolutely NOTHING without the "Passed Exam" in the upper corner) and go back to your station and start to brag about it...
I feel that by having to pass both a written exam and practical exam, supervised by state officials from the fire service, in order to receive a "Firefighter I" License (Like a NYS EMT Card but for Firefighter I, II, III, Fire Officer I, II,III, and Haz-Mat Tech I, II, III) it would force these younger guys to pay attention and actually learn, and by re-certifying every five years its not just a get the certificate and throw it out and forget it type thing anymore, you need to stay on top of things, read articles, attend other classes so you can pass the re-cert tests. Thats what the volunteer fire service needs.
As far as "Support Personnel", they can be like the old "Fire Patrol" units. They can support exterior ops like hose lays, drafting, ladder positioning, rehab areas, staging areas and then later assist with salvage operations and re-packing the hose and cleaning tools so the exhausted firefighters can take time to re-charge. Or like I mentioned in my quote, assist with shelters and other support functions like fund raisers and fire prevention activities.

Yes. As an assistant chief, if I call for mutual aid for tankers and manpower...I want that manpower to be ready, able and trained to fight fires. Usually you will get a mix of members; some interior, some exterior, even some who are brand new members that have new turnouts on (but cant use them) and are basically good for "gopher" duties only. And in some cases you get more explorers riding the rig then firefighters.
Same for accident scenes; I shouldnt have to ask if you are trained to extricate someone from a vehicle, if you dont have AVET then you shouldnt be on the rescue truck when it rolls to an MVA.
My bitch for years has been to adopt the same standards as EMT's in our state. They have to go through a certification process involving training (classroom and hands on), and two tests in order to receive your license. Then you have to re-cert every three years. THATS the way it should be for firefighters, but I feel a good re-cert term for us would be five years. Show up, demonstrate you still know the basic skills in the training facility, take a test and your re-certified. Fail...and you have to re-take the training. Lots of people hate the idea, yet they still bitch on these forums that training standards should be taken more seriously state wide for firefighters....I feel this idea is a good option; is it the ultimate cure for the problem? Never. But its a good option that should be considered and revised to suit our needs.
But I agree; same training for every firefighter, paid or volunteer, big city or small rural farm community with one engine and 6 members. Same across the board so every "firefighter" on scene can do every task required of them.

Yes. As an assistant chief, if I call for mutual aid for tankers and manpower...I want that manpower to be ready, able and trained to fight fires. Usually you will get a mix of members; some interior, some exterior, even some who are brand new members that have new turnouts on (but cant use them) and are basically good for "gopher" duties only. And in some cases you get more explorers riding the rig then firefighters.
Same for accident scenes; I shouldnt have to ask if you are trained to extricate someone from a vehicle, if you dont have AVET then you shouldnt be on the rescue truck when it rolls to an MVA.
My bitch for years has been to adopt the same standards as EMT's in our state. They have to go through a certification process involving training (classroom and hands on), and two tests in order to receive your license. Then you have to re-cert every three years. THATS the way it should be for firefighters, but I feel a good re-cert term for us would be five years. Show up, demonstrate you still know the basic skills in the training facility, take a test and your re-certified. Fail...and you have to re-take the training. Lots of people hate the idea, yet they still bitch on these forums that training standards should be taken more seriously state wide for firefighters....I feel this idea is a good option; is it the ultimate cure for the problem? Never. But its a good option that should be considered and revised to suit our needs.
But I agree; same training for every firefighter, paid or volunteer, big city or small rural farm community with one engine and 6 members. Same across the board so every "firefighter" on scene can do every task required of them.

1) To answer your first part simply; its called leadership. If your IC allows these drivers and "exterior" people to lead a rescue there are more issues in your department then you know. IC is set up for a reason, make them do their jobs better and these exterior ops guys wont be charging in the to "rescue".
Before I continue, I agree with you 100% about the training standards needing to be the same across the state, if your title says "Firefighter" then you should have all the necessary training, and the right amount and type of training, to back that up.
In my area it is common to see "exterior support" members (notice I didnt call them firefighters) that take training called "Scene Support Operations". These members are valuable to us as well. They assist the pump operator set up portable ponds, set up drafting operations, stretch and move around hose lines, chase kinks in hose lines, set up ladders on all sides of the building for emergency egress purposes, set up staging areas for tools, set up rehab areas for outcoming firefighters to get water and fresh bottles...it goes on and on. If you have to use interior firefighters to do all of these tasks...whos fighting the fire? Around here due to lack of help it would be nobody, cause they would all be doing these tasks first, THEN packing up and going in. We see them as valuable resources that can still be used to help their communities. During the storms (Irene and Sandy) these exterior support members would head up the shelter relief efforts alongside our ladies aux. units, doing the cooking for shelter workers, setting up the piles and piles of donations that were coming in and sorting them and distributing them (Our station ended up being a shelter for months due to the devastation in my area) and delivering much needed supplies to the hardest hit areas in my county. Some of these members put in hundreds of hours, hundreds of miles on their personal 4WD vehicles (to reach flood victims with food and clothing and cleaning supplies) so that those of us who are firefighters could be available to respond to actual emergency calls and not be tied up with shelter ops. They are usefull to some volunteer agencies, what needs to happen is the ability to think outside the box and realize that some communities are different then others and have different needs. Like the difference between westchester county and my county.
As far as "Firefighters", hands down 100% without-a-doubt agree that we NEED the same training across the board. I would have loved to have taken the career academy when I first started out 24 years ago, but I made due. I took every and all training classes that came to my county, and even traveled to the fire academy in Montaur Falls a dozen times for good training. There are several courses I have taken 2-3 times already, and 1 or 2 that I have taken 4 times or more to refresh. I continue to train as well and will not stop, even though I am assistant chief. Just because I wear a white hat now doesnt mean I wont be needed to stretch and initial attack line, or do the primary search, or vent for the attack team. I will still be ready, and continue to train until I am old a frail, and will have to be forced to stop.

Yes. As an assistant chief, if I call for mutual aid for tankers and manpower...I want that manpower to be ready, able and trained to fight fires. Usually you will get a mix of members; some interior, some exterior, even some who are brand new members that have new turnouts on (but cant use them) and are basically good for "gopher" duties only. And in some cases you get more explorers riding the rig then firefighters.
Same for accident scenes; I shouldnt have to ask if you are trained to extricate someone from a vehicle, if you dont have AVET then you shouldnt be on the rescue truck when it rolls to an MVA.
My bitch for years has been to adopt the same standards as EMT's in our state. They have to go through a certification process involving training (classroom and hands on), and two tests in order to receive your license. Then you have to re-cert every three years. THATS the way it should be for firefighters, but I feel a good re-cert term for us would be five years. Show up, demonstrate you still know the basic skills in the training facility, take a test and your re-certified. Fail...and you have to re-take the training. Lots of people hate the idea, yet they still bitch on these forums that training standards should be taken more seriously state wide for firefighters....I feel this idea is a good option; is it the ultimate cure for the problem? Never. But its a good option that should be considered and revised to suit our needs.
But I agree; same training for every firefighter, paid or volunteer, big city or small rural farm community with one engine and 6 members. Same across the board so every "firefighter" on scene can do every task required of them.

NFPA 1001 is the industry standard. Period. That's the legal standard you're going to be held to in court when something happens.
Objective certification testing would eliminate the ability of departments to "fake it."
If NYS can pass a gun control law against the wishes of almost every elected Sheriff in the state, I don't see why they can't pass a law setting NFPA Firefighter 1 as the minimum standard for all Firefighters against the wishes of every elected Fire Chief.

Yes. As an assistant chief, if I call for mutual aid for tankers and manpower...I want that manpower to be ready, able and trained to fight fires. Usually you will get a mix of members; some interior, some exterior, even some who are brand new members that have new turnouts on (but cant use them) and are basically good for "gopher" duties only. And in some cases you get more explorers riding the rig then firefighters.
Same for accident scenes; I shouldnt have to ask if you are trained to extricate someone from a vehicle, if you dont have AVET then you shouldnt be on the rescue truck when it rolls to an MVA.
My bitch for years has been to adopt the same standards as EMT's in our state. They have to go through a certification process involving training (classroom and hands on), and two tests in order to receive your license. Then you have to re-cert every three years. THATS the way it should be for firefighters, but I feel a good re-cert term for us would be five years. Show up, demonstrate you still know the basic skills in the training facility, take a test and your re-certified. Fail...and you have to re-take the training. Lots of people hate the idea, yet they still bitch on these forums that training standards should be taken more seriously state wide for firefighters....I feel this idea is a good option; is it the ultimate cure for the problem? Never. But its a good option that should be considered and revised to suit our needs.
But I agree; same training for every firefighter, paid or volunteer, big city or small rural farm community with one engine and 6 members. Same across the board so every "firefighter" on scene can do every task required of them.

1) To answer your first part simply; its called leadership. If your IC allows these drivers and "exterior" people to lead a rescue there are more issues in your department then you know. IC is set up for a reason, make them do their jobs better and these exterior ops guys wont be charging in the to "rescue".
Before I continue, I agree with you 100% about the training standards needing to be the same across the state, if your title says "Firefighter" then you should have all the necessary training, and the right amount and type of training, to back that up.
In my area it is common to see "exterior support" members (notice I didnt call them firefighters) that take training called "Scene Support Operations". These members are valuable to us as well. They assist the pump operator set up portable ponds, set up drafting operations, stretch and move around hose lines, chase kinks in hose lines, set up ladders on all sides of the building for emergency egress purposes, set up staging areas for tools, set up rehab areas for outcoming firefighters to get water and fresh bottles...it goes on and on. If you have to use interior firefighters to do all of these tasks...whos fighting the fire? Around here due to lack of help it would be nobody, cause they would all be doing these tasks first, THEN packing up and going in. We see them as valuable resources that can still be used to help their communities. During the storms (Irene and Sandy) these exterior support members would head up the shelter relief efforts alongside our ladies aux. units, doing the cooking for shelter workers, setting up the piles and piles of donations that were coming in and sorting them and distributing them (Our station ended up being a shelter for months due to the devastation in my area) and delivering much needed supplies to the hardest hit areas in my county. Some of these members put in hundreds of hours, hundreds of miles on their personal 4WD vehicles (to reach flood victims with food and clothing and cleaning supplies) so that those of us who are firefighters could be available to respond to actual emergency calls and not be tied up with shelter ops. They are usefull to some volunteer agencies, what needs to happen is the ability to think outside the box and realize that some communities are different then others and have different needs. Like the difference between westchester county and my county.
As far as "Firefighters", hands down 100% without-a-doubt agree that we NEED the same training across the board. I would have loved to have taken the career academy when I first started out 24 years ago, but I made due. I took every and all training classes that came to my county, and even traveled to the fire academy in Montaur Falls a dozen times for good training. There are several courses I have taken 2-3 times already, and 1 or 2 that I have taken 4 times or more to refresh. I continue to train as well and will not stop, even though I am assistant chief. Just because I wear a white hat now doesnt mean I wont be needed to stretch and initial attack line, or do the primary search, or vent for the attack team. I will still be ready, and continue to train until I am old a frail, and will have to be forced to stop.

Yes, exterior "firefighters" get the same LOSAP as interior firefighters.
Now, there are certain cases where I am not opposed to that. For example, interior firefighters who were injured LOD and can now only perform exterior functions, fire police (because they have a hazardous job as well), and similar type positions.
I do not think that exterior only "social members" (i.e. the ones you never see at a fire scene but are always signing in at the station, should get the points)