firemoose827

Where in the definition of "Volunteer" does it say lack responsibility? It seems to me to be the ever growing "attitude" within volunteers. Whether it is a new mandate for training , or a change in operations for better overall function of your home dept. It seems to me that the "excuse" of "I'm a volunteer, why should I have to take OSHA," or "I'm a volunteer why should I have to be at my ambulance when I am rostering that time." The last time I checked when I became a volunteer at the age of 16, I joined because it was something I enjoyed doing and wanted to help. Just because you don't receive any type of monetary payments does not mean you cant uphold yourself to the same standards as everyone else. I for one feel that without changing that outlook, volunteers will be a rapidly dying breed. Now for those that don't me, and may think I am "voly bashing" get your facts straight. I have been in my dept for 10 years, and put as many hours as any other active voly. I have not forgotten where I came from, and continue to provide the service and have the attitude as of a volunteer just as I would at work. The main objective of this topic is to answer the following ques. and agree or disagree with the above statement, (Because I am a volunteer I don't have to uphold responsibility.) Is this attitude moral oriented? Is it something that can be changed? If so how?

Just wanted to jump in on the discussion for a quick second. Forget about the title of EMT or Paramedic for a minute; speaking solely as a trained and certified practitioner of emergency medicine, nothing frustrates me more than walking into a room full of other trained and certified practitioners of prehospital emergency medicine, asking "What do ya got?" and being met with blank stares. Then asking "What vitals did you get?" and being met with blank stares. Then asking "Can anyone tell me anything about our patient?" only to be handed the clipboard with the patient's name and address written on the PCR, which does me absolutely no good at that given moment.
My point is that an EMT is certified by the State of New York Department of Health to practice prehospital emergency medicine. As basic as some of the skills may be, they are the foundation for every single intervention and treatment the patient is going to receive, at both the BLS and ALS level. Every trained and certified EMT passed the Patient assessment station during their NYS EMT practical skills exam, so when another trained prehospital care provider arrives on the scene where another trained and certified care provider has already initiated patient contact, there is an expectation that certain basic things are completed, time permitting of course, upon the arrival of additional providers (I.e. paramedics). Personally, all I look for is that the chief complaint has been determined, the airway is controlled, oxygen is being administered, ventilations are bein assisted if necessary, serious bleedings being controlled, and a baseline set of vital signs are taken. That's it! It's that whole initial assessment/focused history/vital signs part of the NYS patient assessment station. This is all that most medics are looking for from BLS providers. If you happen to get more, bravo! but I won't be frustrated if you didn't uncover that the patient had foot surgery in 1978 or that you failed to recognize the patient had muffled heart sounds. Why the rant? Because one individual in a previous post brought up the "paragod" complex when referring to Paramedics. Are some medics guilty of this syndrome? Yeah, unfortunately some are. I can tell you with the majority of Paramedics out there, it's not a "paragod" complex, it's an overwhelming sense of frustration that builds up in trained and certified prehospital care providers over time when they witness on a near daily basis the incompetence of some (note I said some, not all) trained and certified BLS providers who can't even handle the simplest of calls. I keep using the phrase "trained and certified" because that's what we all are; trained and certified to practice prehospital emergency medicine. Since we are "trained and certified" we should be held to a standard, not only by the state and other regulatory groups, but by our peers also. As an "EMS peer", I am deeply troubled when I witness other "trained and certified" providers who basically know nothing about the basics of providing prehospital emergency medical care. I have some semblance of patience with new EMT's because we were all new at one point. No one started out as a seasoned veteran. But when a trained and certified has to hold the hand of another trained and certified provider on every single call over the span of months, even years, the frustration starts to set in. This frustration, while it usually ends up being directed at the incompetent provider because they're the easiest target to vent, the overall problem goes well beyond just the provider.
Anyone who's been in the field long enough can tell you that BLS skills have diminished because:
A) A "dumbed down" EMT curriculum that doesn't promote thinking and understanding, it merely promotes recognition. We expect non-trained persons to recognize there's a problem, we should expect "trained and certified" medical professionals to interpret the findings into some form of a presumptive diagnosis to effectively treat the patient.
B. Minimal amount of BLS ambulance rotation hours. 8 or 12 hours of rotations are nowhere near adequate to prepare EMT's for the street.
C) The EMT certification has become more of a joke than anything else. Individuals at job fairs are encouraged to take the EMT class because "after 6 months of training you can make $10 an hour". It's like a bad infomercial. This is not a knock to EMT's, but more so at the means of selecting and recruiting candidates who are being attracted to the field because it's marketed as a quick and easy way to get a certification and start making money; similar to these shady phlebotomy and medical assistant programs you see on TV at 3am.
D) Medic dependency. With the overwhelming number of medics out there, and the fact that they often arrive at scenes first, EMT's are not getting the experience they need to be good providers. One of the problems Paramedics are faced with is walking that fine line of alienating BLS providers on jobs which leads to medic complaints, and then standing back and not getting intimately involved in calls that don't require ALS care, and getting medic complaints for not helping. I don't mind helping out on BLS calls or being a source of guidance, but I shouldn't have to run a BLS call. You're an EMT, you're "trained and certified", you should handle the call.
E) Lack of appropriate field training for new providers and a lack of continuing education for all providers.

I dont know the specifics for this fire so I am clearly not speaking for these guys, but in my experience up here by me, driving into farms, fields, or logging roads is sometimes the ONLY way to get to the fire. I have driven in a fire engine into field and forest many times to extinguish brush fires that could easily have turned worse without water. We dont have choppers (aerial tankers?) so we have to drive it or walk it in.
SOme of our departments have 4wd engines, and some dont. We have brush trucks, but they only carry 250-300 gallons of water. If we can get the 1000 gallon engine close enough to use it as a fill station for the brush units than we do it, its an effective tactic, otherwise we have to drive the brush units long distance to a pond, creek, or other water source to refill. Having the engine, or even a tanker with a pump, close to the scene helps out in the long run.
Besides...every brush fire has the capability to turn into a major fire, threatening homes, businesses and lives, so the earlier you jump on it the better. Just saying that could be the reason they drove the rig into the field.
Hope that helps. Stay safe.

Well here is a reply from “the Old Guy”….(this is my first post as well). I passed my first EMT course in 1973..81 hours in NY State. Like many…I spent several years in various private and volunteer situation before joining NYC EMS…(when it was still Health & Hospitals). I found several things over the last 30 years or so…
When I got out of the Academy, I had come fresh from Long Island, as an EMT-B with numerous instructor/trainer credentials,,,,my first day out…I was assigned to a lower Manhattan tactical BLS unit…and as well trained as I was…..I knew nothing.
No level of training will fully prepare anyone for “the Street”. That being said, I was lucky enough to have worked with some of the finest people in the field, BLS..and eventually ALS, and I learned. There are however vast differences between volunteer services, proprietary services, and paid professional services. Those differences continue to define the level of exposure and expertise in EMS services, particularly BLS care, which is the basis for all ALS. Like others have stated much better than I, good BLS is the basis for good ALS intervention. Remember, ALS is an intervention, not an outcome.
I would strongly agree that for the sake of EMS training and professionalism, and most importantly good patient outcomes EMS education would be better served by the Department of Education, not the Department of Health.
I was so well trained, and experienced because I worked in a highly complex, tertiary care EMS system, that in my day averaged 4000 calls a shift citywide. Most non-urban systems don’t drive anywhere near those numbers. It is for that reason….the vast differences in EMS operating environments, that precludes good standardized BLS skills.
We need a better training system, with bi-annual licensure…dependant on CME’s..
BE safe everyone…

I dont know the specifics for this fire so I am clearly not speaking for these guys, but in my experience up here by me, driving into farms, fields, or logging roads is sometimes the ONLY way to get to the fire. I have driven in a fire engine into field and forest many times to extinguish brush fires that could easily have turned worse without water. We dont have choppers (aerial tankers?) so we have to drive it or walk it in.
SOme of our departments have 4wd engines, and some dont. We have brush trucks, but they only carry 250-300 gallons of water. If we can get the 1000 gallon engine close enough to use it as a fill station for the brush units than we do it, its an effective tactic, otherwise we have to drive the brush units long distance to a pond, creek, or other water source to refill. Having the engine, or even a tanker with a pump, close to the scene helps out in the long run.
Besides...every brush fire has the capability to turn into a major fire, threatening homes, businesses and lives, so the earlier you jump on it the better. Just saying that could be the reason they drove the rig into the field.
Hope that helps. Stay safe.

Here's my thoughts, what about police chiefs getting their own cars? What about dpw formen getting their own truck? Plenty of vehicles out there without any markings on them doing whatever they feel. Oh add in their enormous salaries and free gas etc. Do u still see a problem with a volly chief using his car to go food shopping in the next town?
Oh and just to add this in so its not so one sided, I know career chiefs that have a take hone vehicle with lettering that they run errands in. Just saying

If I recall correctly, most Westchester volunteer fire departments only had one or maybe two marked chief cars up to the mid 1990's. Chiefs without marked cars were given red light/siren packages to be installed in their personal vehicles. I think one reason departments got away from that was insurance, i.e the chief in his personal vehicle responding to a call gets in an accident. Whose insurance pays. I personally know a Pleasantville chief that lost his personal vehicle at a fire scene in the late 1970's due to an explosion/ flash over that set his car, the ladder and the patrol truck on fire. The department's insurance would not pay for the loss of the personal vehicle, even though it was being used on official business. Another problem encountered were many people did not want holes drilled into their cars to mount lights that would end up being removed when their term of chief was over. This led to discussions on vehicles being properly outfitted with lights that were visible from 360 degrees. A lesser problem was that of chief who used their red light/siren equipped personal vehicle to travel outside of the area or state. I know one volunteer was pulled over in Florida and forced by the Florida Highway Patrol to remove a lightbar mounted on his personal vehicle or face getting a summons, even with a cover marked "Out of Service".A move to department owned and marked vehicles led to a reduction of this, but opened can of worms being discussed here . You see the discussions here and on other forums about red light/siren equipped personal vehicles. People may know your the fire chief in your town, what happens when you drive a couple towns away?

I see a lot of issues with our radio procedures as well. Lots of people use the "Be advised" line all the time here, I guess it just sounds cool to them or official. I also hear too many people say their department name before their identifier, but the identifier is designed to give all of the info the dispatcher needs. Take our engine for example, its designation is "2021". "20" is our dept designation, and "21" is the designation for engine, yet you hear it all the time "911 this is carlisle 2021 enroute." waste of air time if you ask me. Be advised though, I see too many issues with radio procedures but not enough effort to alleviate these issues at this time. (hehehe)

The Brotherhood just got lost down the wrong road somewhere and WE need to bring it back. WE are the ones that need to remember it and make it stronger. WE need to makes sure its alive and maintain it. Otherwise, WE need re-evaluate what WE are doing wrong.

I have seen both sides of this argument. I thought at one time that the brotherhood was gone also. I had a son about 10 years ago now who had a rare disease and lived in the hospital, never came home. I was working 2 jobs and spending all free time at the hospital at his bed side...did any of my so called brothers do anything for me and my family? No. Than, when my son passed away 2 days before his second birthday I had no support from any of them. On his funeral only 2 brothers showed up.
After all of that though I still believe the brotherhood is still out there, its just not being properly explained to our younger generations. Its almost as if its expected to just be absorbed when you join, when instead it should be passed on by those of us who can explain it and live it. Dont ever let the brotherhood be erased or misunderstood, keep up the discussion and pass it on.
Great topic and one I respect wholeheartedly.
Stay Safe everyone and protect the brotherhood.

Brotherhood isn't gone. I see the same brotherhood that I had (and still have as a retiree) in my sons and the brothers in their FD. It's thhe same brotherhood I saw when my father was on the job. Sometimes you have to look a little harder than you would like, but the brothers are still here today.
It's not in drinkin' with the guys or playing softball, or the union or the vols association. Our brotherhood is an attitude, a code of conduct,if you will. It's helping a brother move to a new home; it's covering his shift because he is out of sick time; it's giving him a hand when you see him struggling with a task.
Brotherhood was in full speed on 9/11. The world saw them respond. What I saw also were guys reporting for work without being recalled to duty. In their hands were their own private colection of sawzalls, sledges, prybars, etc. They were going to look for their brothers.
How do you find one of these true brothers? You might have to wait until the circumstances are just right. For example, you might be advancing a line down a hallway. It starts getting hot, smoke is banking down lowering your visibility. You don't want to admit it, but you are getting a little scared, and now the heat and smoke have got you as low to the floor as you can get. Look over your shoulder. You should just be able to make out a dim flashlight, just about a foot behind you.
THAT is your brother. Take care of eachother.

With all respect Brother "Men Of Fire" I have to disagree with you. As far back as firefighting goes, there have been hairbags that come into the service either by volunteering, or somehow scoring well enough and bluffing their way onto a career job.
But we cannot take a broad stroke of the brush and paint all junior men/women into one complete group of people in the service who do not care about keeping the traditions, the nobility and the comrade-re of the Brotherhood alive. As an example, just look at how many of our members here on Bravo in the younger age group have become such active members here, and show so much interest in those traditions, and learning "the ways" of the fire service.
I remember hearing senior men, when I was a junior man, extolling their observations that the Brotherhood wasn't what it used to be; that the Brotherhood was doomed to extinction.
Those that do believe in the virtues of our Brotherhood need to be reassured by senior men such as yourself, that the traditions you speak of are indeed still alive, and need to develop the belief in themselves that they are part of something larger than just a job, and need to be taught that they will in the near future be the ones responsible for carrying on the Brotherhood, when they move into positions of seniority, promotion, and leadership.
If we truly care enough in our fraternity to want it to survive and thrive well into the future, then senior men today need to redouble their efforts in seeing to it that these junior men are properly taught about the sacrifices our fore bearers gave to this noblest of professions. All members in senior positions, and leadership today need to be asking themselves a very personal question; are my judgments about the future being clouded by my personal disappointments about things that have happened to me through the years of my career?
It becomes very difficult at times as the years pass, to maintain the motivation to want to pass on our finest traditions. To want to help our junior members succeed in gaining the true understanding of how the Brotherhood continues to evolve, through generations of sacrifice, members being killed in the performance of their duty, members fighting to gain workplace improvements through the collective bargaining process, and members becoming sick through a lack of workplace safety.
I always believed the best way to educate our younger members about these things was to show them examples of what conditions were like before improvements were made. To tell them the stories of what our members went through to gain the improvements we have in place today.
Some things obviously cannot be easily taught. Some things members are just going to have to learn for themselves; generosity and caring for each other, being able to forgive each other for mistakes and not hold grudges.
But I truly understand how you feel. Sometimes it feels like paddling upstream against an overwhelming current. Sometimes we just want to throw it all down, and simply walk away. But the past generations of Brothers who fought so hard for all of the improvements we enjoy today; the firefighers who never got the chance to enjoy some of those improvements, because they got sick or were killed from the very things they were fighting so hard to improve; for the memory of these Brothers passed, we owe it to their memory to continue the fight. To continue to impress upon on our newer generation of firefighters that some things are worth fighting for, some things are worth giving our all for; and the Brotherhood is the greatest of attributes we share in the fire service.
It may not feel like you are making much headway in passing these lessons on, but I guarantee you when the time comes and you have moved on from the job; if you have put in the effort to share with your newer members all of the greatest things about the Brotherhood, your efforts shall not have been in vain.

I was waiting for someone to post something on this. Great post. I have been in the fire service for 24 years, 15 as a career firefighter. I started out as a volunteer at 17. My family life was pretty f***ed and with no direaction I joined the firehouse. Lucky for me back then they taught me all about the brotherhood. I try to teach it in my classes as a SFI in NY. Some of you are right where did it go. A LT on my job said the other day that wearing the uniform is a right you have to earn. I just had a conversation today with a good friend of mine who just got hired. I said to him welcome to the BROTHERHOOD. That means if you ever need anything, break down, get lost, or are in trouble you will have help before you know it. You walk into any firehouse anywhere and you are welcome. Our IAFF sticker is almost like the USMC sticker. I am not knocking volunteers, I think for career firefighters the IAFF sticker is special. I would welcome any volunteer into my firehouse and go out of my way to help them. I remember where I started.
You are right the yonger generation is all about whats good for me.Ball busting is ballbusting and it haves its place. If you are going to be a complete A-Hole to someone all the time you can't excpect them to respect you. Good Post

I have something that is worth posting here and is something I want all of you to read and really think about. This was forwarded to me by a friend. This was written by Meriden, CT, Battalion Chief Burdick.
These are words that I whole heartily beleive in and held true in my profession being a firefighter, from the time I started volunteering my service to my present career in the fire services. Next time when you use the term "Brotherhood" stop and think about it for a second and ask yourself how you use the term, live up to your actions, consider your self part of the Brotherhood. I see the term used often here, but are you truly in the brotherhood?
Just think.

[

Here are mine… Comments or a rep are always greatly appreciated

Not for nothing, but it kind of bothers me to see so many of you more concerned with the response to the incident rather than how bad the injuries are and if they are going to be all right. Only a few of you said anything to that effect.
Hopefully they are all ok and will recover 100%. How did they get hurt? Sorry, had troubles with the links provided and couldnt access them for some reason. Thanks.

As a new Captain my long term goal for this year is to increase the training standards of our department and maybe even get the word out to our fire coordinators and instructors to make the training requirements mandatory. Im tired of hearing fellow volunteers using the same excuse over and over..."Im only a volunteer with a family and FT Job responsibilities." Well than you need to evaluate your situation and make changes; either leave the department or find the time to train because fire kills us just as fast and the people we serve deserve all the same levels of protection that our career brothers and sisters provide. They deserve more than a truck full of untrained well intentioned people with big hearts...they need the same people but with the right training.
I have a wife and young daughter, four years old, and they both support me. They know that if I dont have the training I could get hurt or even worse...makes sense, doesnt it?? They want me to come home than I have to know what Im doing.
I work, and go to school FT yet still make it to drills and classes.
My only question, to all of you with experience in this matter, is how do I get the point across without being too aggressive and making them all burry their heads in the sand? Any good advice for an unseasoned officer to carry out my goal? Any advice would be appreciated and thanks for the information on the training requirements, good stuff.
Stay Safe everyone.

A lot of reading here, took me a while, being there were no pictures but I finaly finished.
Wanted to reply to a lot of the posts but it would take a lot of room to add the quotes so here are a few general thoughts and reflections.
I have read a lot of you say that there is animosity from vollies towards career guys; Sorry, but it sounds like just a simple case of jealousy that you got the job that they all dreamed about since childhood, nothing more than that. Not to mention an isolated event at your department and not like it was a group of vollies protesting on the front lawn of the white house. Me personally, I have worked with career guys at a fire before and had no issues with them and unless they just kept quiet, they had no issues with me. We worked together and got the job done.
Training...I am totally on your side when you say that training should be the same across the board, whether you volunteer or get paid. I would love to see the volunteers have to get the same training, this would make us better at what we do and be able to help people more. It would also cut back the LODD rate for volunteers, so what isnt there to like about that? But too many of us sadly will spend more energy on arguing the fact that we shouldnt have the training than they would actually taking it...sad I know but true unfortunately for us. Question for anyone; If I wanted to take the career fire academy training just to better myself would I be allowed? And how would I go about doing it? I am now a level II firefighter but think that there is still more than what I have. Just curious.
What is everyones thoughts on the County Fire District that is more prevalent down south? I only know little about it having talkied briefly to a member of one when I helped move my uncle to virginia, but it seems to work well and the coverage is better. It seems to be one large county wide combination department correct? Would this work up here? Again, just my curiosity.
Excellent posts by all, very informative and respectful.
Stay Safe.

Just a few points for the original poster. First off very good post, good questions and you seem to be interested in being informed, thats a good thing!
As far as using the harness for rescue purposes, this can now be done using the DRD (Drag Rescue Device) that are now being used in Turnout coats more frequently. Each department should also be trying to outfit their members with harnesses as well, but it is costly. Even still, using simple rope rescue techniques and knots will do the trick as well. Know your knots and ropes, know your tools and their many uses and think outside of the box. As firefighters we should never be reliant on any one skill, tool, or technique but instead become familiar with multiple ways to do any one thing. Being flexible and knowing many different techniques is always a good thing.
These packs are still in the testing phase and as far as I know are still a long way from being ready for service so the more input these manufacturers have the better the product will become. Hopefully some of them are reading these posts?????

Interesting that you brought the topic of working with the other agencies that respond such as police and tow agencies. Our department just had a great lecture generously provided for us by one of our local sherrif's officers. He usually helps with the Fire Police course and was asked by our chief to come and address the issue of working together and what the Law Enforcement providers expect of us and vice versa. GREAT lecture. He discussed crime scenes, and accident re-creation teams and how we should handle the scenes, park our trucks, and help with traffic. He was professional and than allowed us to offer our own information. But he is also a volunteer firefighter, former captain and I was his Lieutenant so he knew that end of it anyway. But still, its good to know what the other agencies need to do for their jobs. I am thinking af inviting a tow agency representitive to our next mva drill so he/she can offer any input from a tow drivers perspective as well. Might be beneficial to us all.
Good topic. I believe it should only be removed if there will be an extended extrication and it will cause trouble or danger. And it should be removed properly with a wrench or socket. Takes the same amount of time and is less of a shock hazzard to an adrenaline charged firefighter that may cross the poles and get a lot more energy than they need...
Stay Safe.

Prayers to the families and for quick recoveries to those injured.never a good time for this, but I think being close to the holidays make it worse

I don't think the rural, suburban or urban really should make a difference, as the benefits of an initial conditions report can be realized in any setting. What I hate hearing is the Holy Shiite! tell them to expedite calls on the radio! We get these from M/A FD's, EMS unit and PD a few times a year, and the response I give is always, "We're already travelling as fast as is safely possible". Point being as much as the initial report can help slow units down, the screaming banshee chief's tend to send many into adrenaline overload, and who can blame them when their chief is setting that example. Progress reports really depend on what you're looking to get out of them. We likes them to document certain benchmarks, but given the small size of our FD, they serve little purpose otherwise as if the incident is much as all (working fire) a full recall has happened and crews are listening to the tactical frequency. On the other hand, requiring the progress reports does force the IC to review benchmarks and to put an actual time frame on the operation. I know firsthand how fast time goes by at a working fire, I'm often amazed out how much time has passed when we're cleaning up and some says the time.

In my area, mostly rural, initial size-ups and progress reports should be a must. There are too many incidents that have some departments responding from long distances and could take 10 to 15 minutes to arrive on scene in this rural area. Progress reports could advise them to "Dial down" the response to avoid careless accidents in bad weather. They can also help the responding firefighters prepare, both mentally and physically for what they may need to do once they arrive.
I for one never liked to be riding on the engine or rescue to a mutual aid call and not know what is going on because there is just no reports at all, and no size-up. Id like to know what Im grabbing when I get off the rig, what tools, fans, salvage covers, saw, ladders...what do they need us to do????
The other big problem is arriving on scene and having no clue who the IC is and what they want you to do because there is no clear designation and there are white and red hats running all around the scene...but thats another topic all together!
I myself will be giving clear and concise scene size-ups and progress reports until the incident is under control.